Caliber wars!

The more views he gets, the more money he stands to make. Why link him? You are doing exacetly what he wants you to do

Who's Yeager?

who cares?

I wasn't really impressed by either. Neither one showed any evidence of their arguement. It was all just one guys opinion.

Basically one guy says, that 40 wears out your gun and doesn't offer enough of a power advantage to deal with the extra recoil.

The other says the 40 offers enough of a power advantage to deal with the extra recoil.

Pretty common knowledge stuff really ( in our world ). I can't believe that capacity was never brought up.

I still believe in the .45acp, just my personal favorite..

You'll have to understand that most of us are bored to tears with caliber wars. Not exactly a fresh subject.

Yawn...
scratch
snuffle

Naw, same ol same ol...
Some platforms (guns, types systems...)
work better with some calibers than others...
as for the rest, much like your underware, it's a personal opinion, and vary varied

Yeager? Isn't he that internet tough-guy who got his CCW license yanked because he didn't know when to shut his gob? Yea, he's an expert on ballistics I'm sure.

There is no such thing as a caliber war.

If you want more smaller bullets get a 9mm (Glock 19)
If you want slightly bigger bullets, and are willing to decrease capacity, get a 40 (Glock 23)
If you want the typically biggest bullet available in a pistol, and are willing to futher decrease capacity, get a 45 (Glock 30)

It's a decision / compromise not a war.

Shot placement

I own and carry all handgun calibers.

Its SHOT PLACEMENT ,that is THE only thing that matters.

Caliber is a bunch of hoo haw.

A miss with any caliber is a waste of ammo and a possibly injured/dead innocent.

Our department (like a large number of police agencies) has been issuing the Glock 23 (.40) for about 15 years.
None of our officers have any trouble with the weapon, from big, strong males to relatively petite females.

I think it's an excellent compromise. I don't find the recoil punishing at all....

When the caliber first began "hitting the streets" as a police round, agencies using it reported excellent results. A high percentage of "one shot stops"; equal to the previously-issued (in most cases) .357 revolvers.

I continue to be unimpressed with the "shot placement" arguments. Yes, if you can bisect junior's aorta with your .380.... Likely he will go down with due haste.

Performing that feat under actual combat conditions is liable to be....Unlikely.

The history of police gunfights indicate a 25% hit rate through most all the decades such incidents have been analyzed. That's "hits" on the person, not the vital bits.
This regardless of training. We now know of the numerous physical and psychological effects of the stress of combat.
People involved in shooting incidents tend to suffer from target fixation, tunnel vision, loss of fine motor control, loss of hearing..... And others as well. They normally cannot say how many rounds they fired.

And that doesn't take into account the realities of the circumstances. One thing to engage a nicely-lit, stationary target at a nice, comfortable shooting range.
Another to engage an actual shooter in a dark alley who might be moving or hiding behind a dumpster.
In actual combat, instead of "shot placement" you might have to "settle for what you can get."
So....IMO... A peripheral hit with a bigger slug is more likely to be debilitating than a peripheral hit with a little one.

scaatylobo said:

I own and carry all handgun calibers.

Its SHOT PLACEMENT ,that is THE only thing that matters.

Caliber is a bunch of hoo haw.

A miss with any caliber is a waste of ammo and a possibly injured/dead innocent.

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Unless you CC a .500 s&w. Then i would think any hit to the torso's pretty much end of fight. Of course, wearing a parka to cover it up may look kinda odd in fl. .45acp ftw

A few things I hate seeing in caliber war threads...
1) Shot placement is key. With very few exceptions, shot placement is going to be similar between 9, .357 sig, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. The only time it won't is if you can't handle the recoil (a valid possibility, especially for smaller shooters).
2) It's the gun you have with you that matters. This argument makes sense if you're getting mugged, that the 9mm on you is better than the shotgun at home. However, when you're selecting carry hardware, "the gun you have with you" is the gun you planned ahead to bring.
3) People who disagree with me (okay, kidding on #3).

Personally, I've approached caliber wars in a few different ways. First I asked "what's best?" Then I said "I think this is best." Now I'm looking at things and wondering if a 10-round limit would affect my consideration, and it probably would be. I'd be more likely to carry a small 6-7 round pistol if limited to 10 (instead of comparing it to a 15+ round pistol), in a compact carry pistol I'd be more likely to opt for .357 sig or .40 S&W, and in a duty pistol I'd be more likely to pursue .45 ACP.

As it is right now, I prefer 9mm. The ratio of expanded-to-original diameter is bigger with 9mm than .45 (compare 0.65 to 0.36 vs. 0.77 to 0.45, which is the average of what I've seen from gel tests or 80% increase vs. 71%), and the difference in size isn't all that great. Capacity is the biggest factor for me, but cost and recoil play a big part as well.

Zardaia, I wouldn't be so sure. Look at the woman recently who shot an attacker 5 times in the face with .38 spc, the rounds penetrated down through the man's torso. (She was hiding in the attic with her kids, explaining the downward trajectory. Hit with 5 of the 6 rounds in her revolver). The fight stopped, but only because the attacker gave up. According to reports he was begging her to stop shooting and left the scene of his own accord, only to be found by authorities after crashing his car. Granted, .38 is a bit weaker than even 9mm, but you would still think 5 shots to the face would put someone down right there.

Its SHOT PLACEMENT ,that is THE only thing that matters.

Caliber is a bunch of hoo haw.

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I disagree.
Shot placement is king, no doubt about it.
But the round must be able to penetrate deep enough to reach vital organs and vessels.
A round that cannot reliably penetrate heavy winter clothing, or a round that is easily deflected by even the smallest of bones, is not a round I'm willing to stake my life upon.

A miss with any caliber is a waste of ammo and a possibly injured/dead innocent.

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True. But a hit with an ineffective round can still get you killed.

When it comes to handguns I'm content with .45 ACP, .40 S&W, .357 Sig, 9mm Para +P, .357 magnum.



Easy

Calibers have their place. I have 9mm, .40, and .45s. In general the 9mm are smaller, easier to conceal, more comfortable in hot weather. The .40 are midsized and more balanced. The .45 are bigger for when you go to that section of town that just doesn't feel right. Carry as much gun as you feel like carrying. With modern ammo choices, 9mm/.40/.45 are ballistically closer than they have ever been. A high end 9mm+p round will penetrate deeper and expand than a .40 or .45 target load would.

How I feel about Yeager is not very High Road. But I will say I don't like him. Anyone who uses that man as a guide for anything needs to stay away from firearms because he uses bad advice.

My opinion is 40 is too snappy. The first time I shot a friends full size Glock in 40 it really surprised me. Wasn't unmanageable obviously but snappier than I thought it was going to be. Later I learned about 40 being rather high pressure, and being a shortened 10mm and so on. Just my opinion. though I know its very popular and many carry it.

I read a magazine article in which the author went through the published test results for the FBI's handgun ballistics tests and found that the best .45 loads had on average a 15 to 20% advantage in wound volume compared to the best 9mm loads. Is that enough to appreciate? Maybe. But you have to weigh it against the increased ammunition cost and recoil and the decrease in magazine capacity associated with the larger calibers. The .40 I would expect would be right in the middle.

I think effective self-defense is 95% shot placement, 4% bullet selection, and 1% everything else. So all these caliber wars, this make and model verses this make and model arguments, and most of everything else that it seems a lot of people get so focused on in these forums falls in that tiny 1% that's left after you pick the best bullet for what you need with what you got and put it where it needs to be.

I don't need someone I don't know telling me what's best for me. I'm a grown adult and can think for myself.

The .45 are bigger for when you go to that section of town that just doesn't feel right.

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What does the likelihood of being attacked have to do with the firepower you will need when attacked?

MTMilitia, I don't place much stock in wound volume. If you consider the goal (hit something vital) and the only thing vital enough to stop a target in seconds in the chest is the heart, I'm more worried about getting hits onto the heart. I don't think the .45 offers a significant advantage there (maybe 5% of the shots with the .45 that would hit the heart would be a miss with a 9), but an extra 2-6 rounds will increase the possibility of a good, solid it.

I don't need someone I don't know telling me what's best for me. I'm a grown adult and can think for myself.

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So why are you on a discussion forum? Yes, everyone can think for themselves, but as a group you can learn from the experience and knowledge of others. I encourage people to make their own decision, but I also encourage people to tell everyone else what they think is best, to get the discussion going. You often learn things you didn't know if you keep an open mind.

Skribs said:

So why are you on a discussion forum? Yes, everyone can think for themselves, but as a group you can learn from the experience and knowledge of others. I encourage people to make their own decision, but I also encourage people to tell everyone else what they think is best, to get the discussion going. You often learn things you didn't know if you keep an open mind.

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Well said, Skribs.

The more I learn, the more I realize how much I have to learn. I'll never turn down advice or suggestions.