Self defence, Power VS accuracy
- Thread starter Hunter2011
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Yes, there was a recall. Many were checked out and there should be inspection certificates.
As Sam says, unless it is defective, it should be sufficient for self defense.
SD is not target shooting. An 8 1/2 X 11 sheet at 5-7 yards is the kind of target a defender should be able to hit.
As Sam says, unless it is defective, it should be sufficient for self defense.
SD is not target shooting. An 8 1/2 X 11 sheet at 5-7 yards is the kind of target a defender should be able to hit.
David E
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The original post was based on false parameters (no stress with .22, but too stressed with 9mm) and gave two false choices.
He could improve his skill with the 9mm but seems adamantly opposed to that. But it's the smartest choice of what is currently available to him.
If the dilemma was between a .22 thats 100% reliable and a 9/40/45 that was only 95% reliable, I'd choose the .22 and would heavily practice "T-zone" shots.
He could improve his skill with the 9mm but seems adamantly opposed to that. But it's the smartest choice of what is currently available to him.
If the dilemma was between a .22 thats 100% reliable and a 9/40/45 that was only 95% reliable, I'd choose the .22 and would heavily practice "T-zone" shots.
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This is difference between wise handgun use and knowing when to resort to something else. On the street, I might consider a .22... circumstances are different than a home invasion. In my home, I would feel much better defended with a ball bat than a .22.
Personally, I'm not going "OK" something I think is dangerous. And I'd rather upset someone than get them killed.
45_auto
Member
OP (hunter2011) said:
Sounds like somebody really needs to get a little training with their 9mm.
Hunter2011
Member
Hi guys. I just want to make it clear. I am not annoyed or upset or anything like that with the answers I got. I just pointed out that the answers don't speak to my question. Sorry if I came across annoyed or something. That was not my intention.
Look... The best option is to get a new gun, like I said I can shoot the G19 I shot with well. So the problem can't be me or the fact that I can't handle a 9mm. Let me then rather accept there might be a problem with my 9mm. No training will solve that.
Look... The best option is to get a new gun, like I said I can shoot the G19 I shot with well. So the problem can't be me or the fact that I can't handle a 9mm. Let me then rather accept there might be a problem with my 9mm. No training will solve that.
Bikewer
Member
I point out all the time that the superb accuracy you've developed on the range may vanish in an actual combat situation.
In addition to the sheer stress of combat, your opponent may be moving, hiding, in poor light, whatever.
All that business of "shot placement is everything" may become moot....You may have to take what you can get.
That's why I favor more potent calibers. A peripheral hit with a big bullet is more likely to be disabling than a peripheral hit with a little one.
In addition to the sheer stress of combat, your opponent may be moving, hiding, in poor light, whatever.
All that business of "shot placement is everything" may become moot....You may have to take what you can get.
That's why I favor more potent calibers. A peripheral hit with a big bullet is more likely to be disabling than a peripheral hit with a little one.
The current American Handgunner Sep/Oct 2013 has an article about SD caliber choices with a chart from military & LEO encounters..
http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/AmericanHandgunner/AHSO13/
http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/AmericanHandgunner/AHSO13/
sheephearder
Member
For my wife a 22 S&W 422 is the best chose. She can and will practice with it and shoots it well enough for close quarters defense but will not shoot any larger calibers. For me any thing from 38/9mm up is OK, and if a 22lr is all I have it is OK too. 
Trunk Monkey
member
Some guns are just bad and all the practice in the world won’t help them.
The first handgun I ever owned was a S&W model 910 which was supposed to be a more affordable version of the 5904 and one of the ways they brought the price down was to switch a lot of the steel parts, including the sights, on the 5904 with plastic parts.
Long story short no matter how much I practiced with that particular pistol I couldn’t hit a horse in the ass while sitting in the saddle.
At the time I was too new to handguns to realize that I probably could have done some upgrading to the gun and ended up with a nice little shooter and I ended up giving it away.
So maybe if the OP can’t get a new gun he can possibly make some adjustments to the one he has at a lower price?
Question for the OP, are you unable or unwilling to look into a new firearm?
The first handgun I ever owned was a S&W model 910 which was supposed to be a more affordable version of the 5904 and one of the ways they brought the price down was to switch a lot of the steel parts, including the sights, on the 5904 with plastic parts.
Long story short no matter how much I practiced with that particular pistol I couldn’t hit a horse in the ass while sitting in the saddle.
At the time I was too new to handguns to realize that I probably could have done some upgrading to the gun and ended up with a nice little shooter and I ended up giving it away.
So maybe if the OP can’t get a new gun he can possibly make some adjustments to the one he has at a lower price?
Question for the OP, are you unable or unwilling to look into a new firearm?
Maybe I've just been lucky. I've shot both a Vektor CP-1 (1 mag) and a S&W 910 (couple of mags) and I found them both pretty enjoyable and certainly accurate enough (2-3" @ 7 yards) for a first time experience.
But I do understand what you guys are talking about, as I've found that I just can't shoot a Browning Hi-Power to save my life (I've owned 3 different ones and shot about a half dozen more).
I really regret not buying the Vektor when I had the chance...watching them in BSG only made it worst. If the OP were local, I'd trade him his choice of a Glock 22 or Beretta 96 for it
But I do understand what you guys are talking about, as I've found that I just can't shoot a Browning Hi-Power to save my life (I've owned 3 different ones and shot about a half dozen more).
I really regret not buying the Vektor when I had the chance...watching them in BSG only made it worst. If the OP were local, I'd trade him his choice of a Glock 22 or Beretta 96 for it
Most self defense shootouts will happen close. As far a 22, maybe if I was going 'Toe to toe' with a 12 pound toothless cat, then I would choose a 22. The simple fact is that the 22 has a 15% dud rate, and recycle the slide badly. I paid $350 for a Ruger pistol (Mark 3 - 22/45) and it's a POS.
The other guns (9mm) runs dependable ammo, so if the gun is good - that's my choice. John Browning made the Baby Browning pocket pistol in 25 acp, just because the 22 was useless.
If I were starting from scratch - a Seecamp 32 ($425) would be my concealed choice. Others would be a CZ-83, Colt 1903, Walther PPK - dependable guns are much cheaper in the long run.
The other guns (9mm) runs dependable ammo, so if the gun is good - that's my choice. John Browning made the Baby Browning pocket pistol in 25 acp, just because the 22 was useless.
If I were starting from scratch - a Seecamp 32 ($425) would be my concealed choice. Others would be a CZ-83, Colt 1903, Walther PPK - dependable guns are much cheaper in the long run.
Trunk Monkey
member
9mmepiphany said:
In my case I think it was that gun because no one that tried it could hit the broad side of a barn with it.
That particular pistol almost turned me off 3rd Gen Smiths though and I thought long and hard before I purchased the 6906 that restored my faith in them. (although I'd probably pass on another 910)
Now I don’t carry anything but.
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Good on you!
The question is precise in its parameters. If it's very difficult to hit a human sized target with a given 9mm but precise hits are doable with a target 22, and you don't want to buy another 9mm (indicating that the given 9mm is not accurate), then what do you do?
Given the parameters of the question, you should use the 22. Hits are what count, misses just make noise.
To go beyond the question, you should sell the inaccurate 9mm and get a decent 9mm or similar gun.
Given the parameters of the question, you should use the 22. Hits are what count, misses just make noise.
To go beyond the question, you should sell the inaccurate 9mm and get a decent 9mm or similar gun.
40-82
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If I understand the spirit of your question, it comes down to this scenario: you have the choice between a very small super lightweight, relatively powerful gun in 9mm, some of them weigh less than 20 ozs. and have short barrels and rudimentary sights. You want to compare the effectiveness of the lightweight carry gun with a heavy target 22. Accuracy trumps power. I've hit 800 pounds steers with a 22 short from a Ruger Single-Six in the brain pan that made them go down like they were hit by a freight train. I've also seen relatively small things soak up very large bullets without enough obvious or immediate effect to make a quick stop. So unless you're talking grappling distance I would always choose the target 22 over the belly gun type. Under the stress of an emergency you're not likely to perform with target grade accuracy even with a heavy weight 22,but it might make the difference between a hit and a complete miss. I can see the choice coming up in some kind of unplanned emergency situation, but if you have the chance to prepare why not choose a target grade 9mm and have the best of both?
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
The old maxim is "3 shots, 3 yards, 3 seconds.". While not exactly provable as the definitive average for violent encounters, it is close enough to illustrate why "target grade" guns are irrelevant to self defense.
On the contrary, weighty bullets that expand to a goodly diameter when they strike soft tissue are a very good idea. Accuracy is nice, of course. But at three yards, I'll take the more powerful option every single time.
On the contrary, weighty bullets that expand to a goodly diameter when they strike soft tissue are a very good idea. Accuracy is nice, of course. But at three yards, I'll take the more powerful option every single time.
I guess the hurdle I'm having a hard time getting over is how inaccurate the OP is saying the CP-1 is.
1. It has a fixed polygonal barrel and a SAO trigger
2. It uses the same delayed blowback system as the H&K P7
3. It has a low bore axis
4. The recall had nothing to do with accuracy, but with the drop safety
5. It was better built than the Heritage Stealth/Wilson ADP
I'm just confused
1. It has a fixed polygonal barrel and a SAO trigger
2. It uses the same delayed blowback system as the H&K P7
3. It has a low bore axis
4. The recall had nothing to do with accuracy, but with the drop safety
5. It was better built than the Heritage Stealth/Wilson ADP
I'm just confused
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
It comes down to the fact that the OP already has the answer. He wants validation of his choice to rely on the .22 for SD because it is apparently the only gun he has that works in a manner he believes to be sufficient for his needs. That is what he believes despite suggestions and statements to the contrary, then by golly that is what he should use for SD. After all, he wields it with surgical precision. He expressed absolutely no interest in trying to better himself with the superior caliber Vector and so he never will.
mokin
Member
If you can pick your shot placement with the .22 then go for it! If you wife says "NO MORE GUNS FOR YOU!" then buy a shot timer and add some stress to your range sessions. Set up several silhouette targets and try shooting from cover. See how you do when you add multiple targets and magazine changes to the equation. Have fun! And, by all means don't occasionally try the same drill with the 9mm.
mljdeckard
Member
The OPs premise is flawed in that, you can no more assume you will get a CNS hit with a .22 than you can with any other gun. Very few shooters are good enough to consistently get hits that good at ten yards if they can take their time on stationary targets. Bad guys don't stand still OR wait for you.
Add to this the VERY low odds that a frontal hit with a .22 will actually penetrate FAR ENOUGH to hit the spine. You can try to say, "well, I'm good enough to shoot them in the eye/temple." Maybe you are. (Though I would like to see it.) But the skull is a bad place to shoot people at all. It has curves, angles, and layers. It is also not static in its location, it moves when it is hit, which means that there are any number of things that can happen that will prevent the bullet from penetrating to the brain. And hitting the brain doesn't guarantee motor function will cease either.
This is why I roll my eyes a little bit at the "it's all about shot placement" idea. I still say three 9mms in the ten ring is better than ten .22s in the ten ring. Of course you want to get the best hits you can, but it's not EVERYTHING. I teach my students to get as many in the eight ring as fast as possible, I think that's more real world effective than trying for precision when someone is trying to kill you.
Add to this the VERY low odds that a frontal hit with a .22 will actually penetrate FAR ENOUGH to hit the spine. You can try to say, "well, I'm good enough to shoot them in the eye/temple." Maybe you are. (Though I would like to see it.) But the skull is a bad place to shoot people at all. It has curves, angles, and layers. It is also not static in its location, it moves when it is hit, which means that there are any number of things that can happen that will prevent the bullet from penetrating to the brain. And hitting the brain doesn't guarantee motor function will cease either.
This is why I roll my eyes a little bit at the "it's all about shot placement" idea. I still say three 9mms in the ten ring is better than ten .22s in the ten ring. Of course you want to get the best hits you can, but it's not EVERYTHING. I teach my students to get as many in the eight ring as fast as possible, I think that's more real world effective than trying for precision when someone is trying to kill you.
Hunter2011
Member
I'm just as confused as you.I guess the hurdle I'm having a hard time getting over is how inaccurate the OP is saying the CP-1 is.
1. It has a fixed polygonal barrel and a SAO trigger
2. It uses the same delayed blowback system as the H&K P7
3. It has a low bore axis
4. The recall had nothing to do with accuracy, but with the drop safety
5. It was better built than the Heritage Stealth/Wilson ADP
I'm just confused
A shorter barrel don't mean less accuracy, but it seems the short sight radius and crappy fixed sights are just not working for me.
Like I said, I'm currently saving up for a Glock. I just can't really make my mind up between a G34 or a G21. If Glock made a .45 in the size of the G34 I would have stopped looking.
Let me explain further for those that will care to read all my babble. I did not only asked this question for myself. There are other people in my situation that are even worse off. My father is one. He bought a .38 snubby for SD. We went to an indoor shooting range to practice with it. At 10 meters only 1 of the 5 shots could hit the human sized target. The rest were close, basically shaving the outlines of the target, but are still misses. Then we shot with my Vector. Much better results were achieved. And that with all 13 round that struck the target. Then when we shot with my .22 pistol, the difference was just amazing to my father. Now he is also a firm believer that bigger is better, and it is. But what is power without control?
In South Africa you must renew you SD license every 5 years. He is not interested to do it for the 38 again, too much trouble etc. I then told him just join the club I'm at, get yourself a nice .22 revolver or pistol and use it in an emergency. Then you only have to renew every 10 years and you get the much needed practice. He is a very good shooter, he got almost top scores in comps he shot in his youth. He just can't get the .38 to shoot good enough. He just don't want to trust a .22 with his life. But what use is the .38 if he can't hit with it? I truly believe that he will be better armed with my .22 pistol than with his .38 Special that only connects with 1 out of 5 shots. And that is in single action mode and really trying hard to shoot a group.
He won't consider a 9mm or bigger to shoot with at the club as ammo is too expensive. So the .22 will be the only option. I just need to convince him. I don't want him to be unarmed, but he just believes a .22 is worthless. I don't think it is worthless.
Zaydok Allen
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Round and Around. This has to be the most confusing thread I've ever read through.
I think the bottom line is that if the .22 works for you, then use it. Buy a larger caliber gun that you can shoot just as well as your .22 just as soon as you can. Sell the 9mm you have now to help fund a gun you shoot better. Look at .45 maybe?
Good luck!
I think the bottom line is that if the .22 works for you, then use it. Buy a larger caliber gun that you can shoot just as well as your .22 just as soon as you can. Sell the 9mm you have now to help fund a gun you shoot better. Look at .45 maybe?
Good luck!
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