Talk me out of a PS90.

i just dont see the PS90 as anywhere close to what the real thing is designed for

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Ahh, but some folks who've put a whole lot of thought and testing into it do see it as close to what a homeowner and civilian citizen might use -- regardless of what "the real thing is designed for."

Of course, if your opinions lead you not to value those characteristics you probably won't choose one for that role.

I'm in the same boat, but plan on going one step further by converting a PS90 to a 10.4" barrel after securing the necessary stamp, jumping through flaming hoops, etc.

Many folks will say I'll end up investing money making an already anemic round even more so for a firearm that's overpriced as is. They could be right. But I've kicked around the idea of having one of these for so long that I might as well and be done with it.

Then I'll have something to take on the Jaffa should the next vortex in my toilet not be of flushing water.
Really though... 50 rounds affords A LOT of follow-up shots should one to plan to use a PS90 for something other than paper and cans.

BTW, you can find your hearts content of 5.7x28 (primarily AE5728A and SS197SR) online, but it's still not cheap. I think $26/50 is about the cheapest I've seen recently for SS197SR.

the civilian one will not have a high rate of fire

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Follow up shots are faster than comparable "civilian rifles." Perhaps not sub-gun fast, but 4 controlled rounds a second sounds pretty dang quick.

wont have the armor piercing capabilities

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Why would you want or need them? I agree, I wouldn't take on cops or the Natl. Guard with a PS90, either, but I also wouldn't do so, either

and with a 16" barrel hanging off the end wont be as compact either

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Have you held one? They're still pretty dang small, just not concealable (which the real deals certainly are). Also more compact, again, than comparable "civilian rifles" like AR variants, other pistol carbines, or shotguns (especially)

might as well just go with a handgun

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That is certainly an option, and many people do just that. I'm not an operator or even the least bit experience at this sort of thing, but I imagine that a two-handed weapon with a butt stock is considerably more stable, controllable, retainable, and more easily manipulated under duress than a pistol.

The PS90 is still very much in the spirit of the non-neutered version; light, compact, high capacity, effective enough to save your butt. I believe the original is select fire, so FNH/their customers must have seen some utility in a semi-auto configuration. The auto fire mode is really there to ensure that close-in armored targets are hammered, since the cartridge, while fast enough to shear Kevlar (it doesn't really penetrate) is borderline for that role and may not have enough energy once through to do the job decisively.

It's plenty decisive on unarmored targets, so special ammo less critical in the homestead role, as is the selective fire mode. I suppose you could argue it's a "drastically different" gun, but that's not to say it isn't very well suited to a much more practical role. I do agree that the long barrel sours many folks on the gun, since it is something of a "brand of inferiority" to mere civilians (it pissed me off and made me dislike the carbine, too, until I realized that it didn't really impede anything, and helped the cartridge deliver more force on target). At least I'd be less likely to shoot my thumb off with the anteater barrel

I'd be all over a SIG MPX in 5.7, since the locked breech would be a reloader's dream (I guess they're doing it in 357SIG, which is kinda similar), but it's more of a pistol AR than a PDW (plus I think the ATF's gonna go back on their word on a few things regarding that design before all's said and done)

TCB

listen, im stating facts to talk him out of it as the instructions state.. i dont have a problem with the P90, i actually like it and wish it was legal to have a REAL one, full auto and armor piercing where it really shines.. but the instructions are to talk him out of it, not to convince him, so im naming off all the downsides i can think of

but aside from actively trying to talk him out of it, i will say i actually like 7.62x25 better than the 5.7, very similar designed cartridges, and with the 5.7s armor piercing bullets aside the 7.62x25 is cheaper, easier to find, fired through more guns (including converted 1911s) and ballistically better (again, 5.7s armor piercing rounds aside) matches better with my AK rifles too and gives me an excuse to make a PPSH-41 a very near future project of mine.. in fact, im thinking of making 7.62x25 my cartridge of choice for handguns and pistol caliber carbines (id likely use a converted 1911 for concealed carry but if determined enough id imagine just about any .45acp design is large enough to work with these long cartridges)

listen, im stating facts to talk him out of it as the instructions state..

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Actually the last line of OP was:

So am I hopelessly dreaming? Should I just buy lower priced firearms on my list now and wait? Or save up and get the PS90 next on my list no matter what?

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That would open the discussion to pros and cons. Also, many of your so-called "facts" are nothing more than you stating your biased and misinformed opinions. So, stick to the actual facts, pro and con, and play nice.

I bought a PS90 Tri rail and a FiveSeven from another member a few years ago and couldn't be happier. I've even bought an AR57 upper and love it even more for the familar controls.

I will admit that the price of ammo has gotten out of reason, but I still find deals out there and buy in bulk. The last time I picked up 12 boxes of Hornaday for $20 each and have never paid more than $25 a box at any time, which is on par with most twenty round boxes of centerfire rifle ammo cost.

barnbwt said:

Follow up shots are faster than comparable "civilian rifles." Perhaps not sub-gun fast, but 4 controlled rounds a second sounds pretty dang quick.

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I can accurately fire a PS90 at distances of out to 100 with .25 splits and hit a torso sized target 100% of the time from kneeling, sitting, or prone, or 50 yards standing.

At 200 yards I need to slow down to keep 100% of my shots in a torso sized target. At 10 second intervals I can place all of my shots at 200 yards in a 3 MOA circle. At 30 second intervals I can place all of my shots at *300* yards in a torso sized target. That's about the best accuracy I can get at my current skill level; I can't shrink the MOA at 300 yards with the factory optics.

Now.. give me a scope..

(But that'd defeat the intended use of home defense. )


FYI "select fire" on the real P90's;

* Squeeze trigger a little bit = semi auto
* Squeeze trigger fully back = automatic

to answer his question whether he should buy a PS90 now or buy other stuff on his list could be better answered if we knew what was on his list?

jason41987 said:

but aside from actively trying to talk him out of it, i will say i actually like 7.62x25 better than the 5.7, very similar designed cartridges, and with the 5.7s armor piercing bullets aside the 7.62x25 is cheaper, easier to find, fired through more guns (including converted 1911s) and ballistically better (again, 5.7s armor piercing rounds aside) matches better with my AK rifles too and gives me an excuse to make a PPSH-41 a very near future project of mine.. in fact, im thinking of making 7.62x25 my cartridge of choice for handguns and pistol caliber carbines (id likely use a converted 1911 for concealed carry but if determined enough id imagine just about any .45acp design is large enough to work with these long cartridges)

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While I'm not going to knock a PPSH or Suomi... but... by and large there is no comparison. You don't understand how light and balanced these things are. It is a FAR cry from having 12 pounds of metal hanging off your front arm. There is ZERO weight over your support arm with a PS90. It's all polymer and only a few inches of metal are in front of your support arm, in the barrel.

Comparing the ease of shooting a PS90 from standing position, versus even a lightweight CAR15, there's no contest.

I'll smoke ANY AR-15 that I come across, period, out to 200 yards. I've proven this in competitions. I'm faster, just as accurate (if not more so) in ALL positions, and when I'm standing or kneeling, I'm FAR more accurate than with an AR-15. (And to keep the point, and AR-15 is going to be easier to handle than either PPSH or Suomi).

As far as comparing it to pistols? I can hit a torso sized target out to 300 yards reliably (100%) with my PS90 with factory 1x optics. I can hit a *vital zone* of 6", 100% of the time, out to 200 yards. Even under the stress of competition, where the clock is running.

7.62x25 is a great cartridge, and 70 or so years ago was the cat's meow. It's still as effective today as it was back then. It'll definitely do the job.

But things today are even more effective than the things were back then.

Times change. New technologies develop.

There *is* nothing currently comparable to the PS90. It really is an oddball, out there on it's own.

This being said, *if* we didn't have a ban on full auto; or the stigma associated with using full auto in self defense... I might use an MP5SD or 40 cal variant instead.

But, for what it's worth.. it's simply the fastest, most accurate, centerfire semiautomatic (with the highest magazine capacity) that money can buy today, for distances up to 200 yards.

Terminal performance depends on shot position. And this thing shoots.

If you don't believe me, come visit one of my rifle matches. I'll demonstrate and let you run the course with the thing. By the time the day is through you'll be a believer.

(Now, the FiveSeven is a different animal, the thread wasn't directed at such. But there's no real advantage between a 20 round FiveSeven, and a 17(+) round 9x19 handgun. I keep the CZ75 on the bedside table for a reason. 0.16 split times, being the reason....)

actually, the 5.7 doesnt hold a candle at any range in any category besides maybe ammunition capacity to a .223 or 5.56, i can kill a deer easily at 200 with a 223, the 223 has about 3x the power

also, ive fired P90s, as i said, i like them a lot, but im playing devils advocate, about the only negative things i have to say about the P90 itself would be blanket issues with bullpups in general like the trigger and thats about it, most my issues are with the cartridge, its too expensive for plinking and there is something better in every possible category vs the 5.7x28

show me something the civilian 5.7x28 round can do better than any other cartridge and ill retract that statement

i definitely agree with your statement about the 9mm being far, far better for defense and rather high capacity too but moreso the 124 grain GDHP bullet leaves a vicious wound

Trigger is a bit stiff, I'll give you that. I could probably pull 2 MOA at 200 yards with .5 second splits if it was more manageable.

The ammo isn't ungodly expensive ~50 cents a round currently, for the Fiocci (which is a match grade projectile.) WalMart (locally) had 750 rounds of 223 in a can on the shelf yesterday for $475. That's more expensive (63 cents a round, for FMJ junk ammo).

As far as cost, it's all relative.. I own belt fed 50 BMG's... THAT is an expensive beast to feed. If you can afford a $1,200+ rifle, you shouldn't complain about 50 cents a round. (or.. If you can't afford 50 cents a round, you can't afford a $1,200+ gun.)

It's not about the 5.7x28 cartridge, it's about the platform. Bring your BEST sporting rifle; AR15, SCAR17, FNAR, Cetme, G3, FAL, and I'll knock the snot out of you in a rifle competition at ranges from 50 to 200 yards, in speed and score.

I can put shots on target fast without blowing through my target and hitting the person in the house two doors down. THAT matters, in a defensive role.

In an *offensive* role you'll find me bringing MUCH different gear to the field.

in that case my AK-74 should make a great defensive round.. its immediate yaw upon impact of any object (walls included) will slow it down pretty quick and do devastating amounts of damage and shoot just as fast, just as accurately out to 200 yards as well.. sure, nowhere near as light or compact but in a 200 yard competition id rather have the extra power and velocity it offers

jason41984 said:

in that case my AK-74 should make a great defensive round

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Are you kidding? The 5.45x39 is a wicked little round and stomps the 5.7x28 in about every conceivable way. The only thing the 5.7 has going for it when compared to the 5.45 is the P/PS90 platform, IMO.

After developing a trust for my first SBR, I plan on using it for a Krinkov as well somewhere down the road.

I shoot stuff for giggles whenever I'm at a private range that allows it. The 5.45x39 can to some amazing things with the scant energy it has (when compared to the 7.62x51 and such). We were having trouble keeping Silverbear 60gr FMJs inside the lined-up five 1 gallon water jugs... not because they were shooting clean through, but instead were taking on the shape of crescent and tearing out the sides of the 2nd, 3rd or 4th. It's a nasty round to say the least.

I have nothing but respect for that round.

in that case my AK-74 should make a great defensive round..

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Now you're catching on!

but im playing devils advocate

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I'd say the devil has enough representation for now, as this is getting quite circular.

Snowdog said:

The 5.45x39 is a wicked little round and stomps the 5.7x28 in about every conceivable way.

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Yes, it does. It has :

• More power
• Longer range (although past 200 yards I've seen them tumble and enter things sideways)
• More recoil impulse
• More muzzle flash
• WAY More noise
• Projectiles that will penetrate multiple people / walls / obstructions

The only thing the 5.7 has going for it when compared to the 5.45 is the P/PS90 platform, IMO.

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From a ballistic curve, sure.

But, considering the only platform truly designed for either round is an AK-74, and a PS-90... that means we compare cartridge AND platform, together.

The projectile *does* fragment, yaw, and do weird stuff on impact, but 5.7 40gr ballistic tips virtually detonate when they hit liquid. I've never found a chunk of one larger than 1/10th of an inch wide after shooting them through plywood or a bottle of water. They rip themselves to pieces.

PS90

• Less power, less overpenetration
• Similar effective range, but more accuracy (no tumbling, consistent ballistics, match grade projectiles)
• Less recoil impulse (rifle stays on target), allowing faster shot to shot speeds.
• Zero muzzle flash (important for shooting at night, so you don't blind yourself)
• Very little noise (not uncomfortable to shoot without hearing protection, though you should still use it)
• Projectiles that will consistently behave on impact (highly frangible)
• Both platforms are equally as fast at reloading, but with the PS90 you can see your rounds remaining while still holding on the target.
• Safety mechanism is not noisy and can be operated without moving trigger hand
• Factory optics are faster to acquire target than a blade-leaf sight. AK-74 also has a very short sight base, which hurts accuracy (rear sight is too close to front sight)
• Built-in low-light reticle on factory optics.
• Side scope mounts on AK-74's are unreliable (I have some Russian originals), scopes are bulky and heavy.
• PS90 is far more stable when shooting offhand, vs. AK platform. The bullpup design means the weight is supported by your shoulder, only 1 pound or so of weight is held up by your support arm.
• PS90 standard capacity 50 rounds, AK-74 30.
• PS90 weight 6.3 pounds (plus .8 pounds for loaded magazine) = 7.1 lbs, Ak74 7.3 pounds (plus 2.03 pounds for loaded 30 round magazine) = 9.3 lbs.
• PS90 and AK-74 are both incredibly reliable. PS90 is faster to clean, which I do every couple thousand rounds.
• PS90 breaks down in to two smaller major components so you can travel with it in a backpack on a motorcycle or hiking without it being visible to others. It's smaller (length wise) when broken in to two parts, than a side folding AK74 is.
• PS90 brass falls straight down, you can collect it on the rifle itself with a clip on baggy. Ak74 throws brass violently. (Trip / fall hazard, indoors)

After developing a trust for my first SBR, I plan on using it for a Krinkov as well somewhere down the road.

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Krinkovs are neat, but hard to hold on target - they really turn in to bullet hoses. Having shot full auto AK's and Krinkovs both, the AK-47/74 is *easy* to hold on target going cyclic. The Krinkov, even with a timed slant break, wants to put bullets everywhere, and after a short burst will be way off target.

I shoot stuff for giggles whenever I'm at a private range that allows it. The 5.45x39 can to some amazing things with the scant energy it has (when compared to the 7.62x51 and such).
I have nothing but respect for that round.

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I completely agree - would never want to get HIT by one of those things. The hollow nose on the 7N6 projectile means they yaw and break up and deliver multiple wound tracts. It's an ugly, ugly wound.

I have owned several Ak-74 clone and still have one in my safe, with a few thousand rounds of 7N6 sealed in tins waiting for the end of the world. They are stubbornly reliable design and a good anti-personnel cartridge. I would give the edge to the AK-74 in an offensive role if you had a squad of them. Even though at longer ranges the bullets tumble and lose accuracy, they're still zinging downrange; with 10 or so of those rifles singing at once, you get the benefit of tactics that wouldn't work with the PS90 - plunging fire, etc.

But the PS90 still shines on defense.

Also; for what it's worth, guys, before I started leaning the PS90 against the wall at night, for a decade, I had a side-folding AK-47 in that same spot. So, yes, I believe in the Kalashnikovs... With a $500 budget there's very few things that will serve better in a multiple-intruder defensive role than your classic AK design. It's an excellent short range defensive gun. (By short range I mean 200 yards or less).

But, every bullet point comparison I could come up with was beaten by that little PS90, so eventually the swap was made.

Doesn't mean I don't like AK's. On the contrary, I love the damn things.



But.. this year I've shot the following rifles in 5-position sporting rifle competitions, at 50, 100, and 200 yards (standing, sitting, kneeling, bench, and prone):

• Swiss K31
• FN-AR
• Steyr SSG 69 with original Kahles optics
• SCAR17-S (once with irons, once with a Leupold Mark 4 scope)
• Yugo M76 8mm rifle
• H&K SL-8
• PS-90

The rifle with the highest overall score?

PS90.

Believe me, I was disappointed and shocked that it beat out some of my other rifles. I gave each my best attention, picked a different rifle each month to shoot, spent time working up loads for the 7.62x51 SSG, etc... but that little pea shooter out shot them all.

The standing score is what really set it apart, from the others. All of the rifles above are capable of shooting 90+ point scores when supported, kneeling, sitting, prone, or benchrest.

But I can *consistently* put rounds in a 2 MOA 10 ring with the PS90, standing, at 50 or 100 yards. I simply can't do that with any other rifle.

Hideous design, overpriced, in a cartridge that does nothing better than other less expenssive cartridges............

Did that do it? If that kind of basic logic doesn't do it, then just get one, because you've already made up your mind.

There's nothing wrong with just wanting one and getting one because of that. And really, all guns have utility. Some just have more than others.

IMO, there are better uses for the money.

a 5.7x28 with no more kinetic energy at the muzzle than a 9x19mm has the same effective range as a 5.45x39 with three times the muzzle energy and a higher ballistic coefficient with some of the rifles of a higher quality build able to hit 1" groups at 100?.. umm, ok then

but anyway, neither the P90, or other short PDW alternatives (like the lighter, more effective MP5K) would actually be more effective than a common handgun, nor will they be lighter, or more compact

my point is to answer the OPs questions, depending on whats on his list to purchase if he doesnt already have something for home defense or self defense id recommend going for a quality handgun first.. if he wants versatility, if he has any bullpup rifles on his list, these will easily far surpass a P90 in power and range while being pretty close to the same weight and compact profile as a PS90 (bullpups like the steyr aug, IMI tavor-21, FN FS2000) and even though the P90.. a design i actually like a lot is a far cry from a toy i just think there are better alternatives in the category of defense, range, effectiveness, and compactness that i would go to first and just get the P90 later on for recreation.. and although the P90 is incredibly well balanced, handguns are still a lit easier to grab and use one handed if needed

Wow, I don't own a PS90, nor even really want one. But some things are just a bit hard not to answer:

a 5.7x28 with no more kinetic energy at the muzzle than a 9x19mm

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Energy isn't the decisive factor in stopping a threat.

has the same effective range as a 5.45x39

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No, but close. And for the purposes we're discussing at the moment, range is largely irrelevant. So you can make very accurate hits out to 200 yards? Well, that's probably 10x sufficient.

but anyway, neither the P90, or other short PDW alternatives (like the lighter, more effective MP5K) would actually be more effective than a common handgun, nor will they be lighter, or more compact

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Some users find shoulder-fired weapons easier -- even MUCH easier -- to make accurate hits with at close range than they do handguns. That's not my personal experience as I do 95% of my shooting with handguns, but many many many shooters will universally choose a shoulder-fired weapon -- especially with a fast optic -- over a handgun for home defense. Especially a light, compact, very fast handling, very accurate carbine that can put rounds on target without moving point of aim as fast as you can cycle the trigger.

It is hard to support the idea that an MP5K is more effective in semi-auto form, and certainly they are much less commonly available, and problematic to make as compact due to the NFA.

my point is to answer the OPs questions,

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Ok, we got that. Devil's advocate and all. But most of your ideas here are quite rebuttable. So, being the devil's advocate, he probably should have told you to expect folks to rebut them.

ratt_finkel said:

I think this is the winning post here.

I have plenty of firearms for self and home defense. Arguing terminal ballistics and utility don't really effect my desire to have one of these sweet machines in my hands.

Although, much like my car guy half. I want something that is a known performer. I don't think anyone can argue that the PS90 is a reliable, accurate, fun to shoot bull pup.

Trent continues to oversell this thing. So it's partially his fault too LOL!

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Haha it's hard to find an FN product I don't like. I've owned most of them. And shot quite a few others.

If the look of a PS90 doesn't turn you off (it's a personal thing; you either love it or hate it), and you want a fast carbine.. man, go for it.

One of my favorite FN products happens to be one that I can't own in this state.



Probabaly a good thing, with the cost of 223 ammo.

One could put themselves in to the poor house with such a device. End up living out of a very-well-guarded cardboard box holding a sign on the interstate on ramp... "will work for ammo"...

jason41987 said:

but anyway, neither the P90, or other short PDW alternatives (like the lighter, more effective MP5K)

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Random and arbitrary statement completely unsupported by any fact... and contradicted by your previous statement regarding kinetic energy. Of course, even measuring "effectiveness" of a platform by bullet kinetic energy is pretty pointless. Not just because kinetic energy alone is a pretty poor measure when considered independent of other wounding effects, but also because not all ammunition is equal.

For 9mm ammunition we could be talking anywhere from 271 to 511 foot pounds. There are variants of the 5.7x28 that put out 560 foot pounds out of the P-90 or 660 our of the PS-90


So yeah, just going by the kinetic energy standard, the 9mm MP5K loses that comparison.

jason41987 said:

and although the P90 is incredibly well balanced, handguns are still a lit easier to grab and use one handed if needed

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ClickClickD'oh, youre really going to quote me saying handguns are easier to use one handed then a P90, then show me some video of someone shooting one one handed in some attempt to argue that statement?.. anyone know the expanded diameter of a 5.7x28 self defense round?.. its around .375, the UNEXPANDED diameter of a 9mm which with self defense loads expands to over .70".. enough said

Personally, I don't know the expanded diameter of a 5.7x28mm round, because I've never found enough bullet fragments to piece one back together. The ones I DID find were too mangled to piece together. Draw your own conclusions on multiple wound tracks, and your chances of locating an artery with one.

And what 9mm bullets are you finding that expand to .70" reliably? That's nearly double the starting diameter of the bullet.

FYI: a 9mm starts at .355, not .375. I'm assuming you made a typo there.