Are ATF often 'plainclothes' at gun shows?

The links are credible. They are also trying to break federal law by registering legal firearms, see the thread I created here. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=737291

Any case, not trying to get too off topic here.

RetiredUSNChief said:

If any of the links mentioned are credible...then it would appear that the ATF would be getting set up to have their keisters handed to them over this...a situation I mentioned which they will not like in court at all.

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I have seen that story in several major outlets, and if you read it you will get red in the face with anger.

Especially the part where they convinced a mentally retarded guy to go buy guns and then resell them.

The problem seems to be more widespread than you would think.

Not surprising to me, I tend to think that law enforcement has the same percentage of ne'er-do-wells in their midst as the general population does......which is a LOT. They are, after all, just human.

bainter1212 said:

Not surprising to me, I tend to think that law enforcement has the same percentage of ne'er-do-wells in their midst as the general population does......which is a LOT. They are, after all, just human.

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Words of wisdom...and quite reasonable, as well, considering that the source for ATF agents, like any other organization, is the general population at large.

Just another cross section of society.

I have never been involved with the ATF. I have been involved with FBI, DEA, DHS agents as well as border patrol.

My DEA friends often work undercover and they don't wear shiny shoes or have "Men In Black" appearances. If you guys can identify a person as being from the ATF and trying to "sting" you then I contend that those agents are imbecilic

As far as the crate of SKS's for $110 goes can you please direct that guy to me. As far as I know, where I live, it is not illegal to buy a crate of guns or even a truckload so long as you have no reason to believe they are illegal. FTF sales are perfectly legal so, for my area, I see no reason to avoid such a purchase

Frank Ettin said:

The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel looks like a credible source.

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I dunno, this statement seems a tad parodic.

"In Pensacola, the ATF hired a felon to run its pawnshop. The move widened the pool of potential targets, boosting arrest numbers.Even those trying to sell guns legally could be charged if they knowingly sold to a felon."

Hard to say you were entrapped when selling or handing a firearm to your friend that your know is a felon, and is prohibited from contact with firearms. The use of criminals to snare criminal associates has been going on for years. The number one method of landing the big fish in crime rings is by using the small fish to catch them.

As for the use of the provocatively dressed female ATF agent, why would the lure of sexual rewards be any more of entrapment that the lure of monetary reward? Teenagers breaking the law to impress a woman is just more of stupid is what stupid does.

Again, no one here is saying the ATF or other forms of government agencies have never overstepped their boundaries. There is plenty of evidence there. Very little evidence is there showing it is regularly done against law abiding citizens on an individual basis. The Original Post was about local gun shows and the presence of the ATF there. Nuttin' in links or other verified evidence has been presented showing they regularly target private law abiding individuals making legal purchases and sales. Only assumptions based on bias and "lots of folks say".

My DEA friends often work undercover and they don't wear shiny shoes or have "Men In Black" appearances. If you guys can identify a person as being from the ATF and trying to "sting" you then I contend that those agents are imbecilic

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Who said "shiny shoes" or men in black? They most certainly do have a look about them. If you've ever been to a federal court room for the trial of someone on gun charges you will see the type in about 10 seconds. Exceptionally neat, short hair that has been recently and regularly cut and combed perfectly, a button up shirt, no jeans, and dress shoes. I've seen a lot of those people in my life and I've watched them do stings on people and I've seen them testify in court against people. A friend of mine got railroaded by them too so don't expect me to believe they are all straight arrows. He had a Czechoslovakian machine gun from WWI which fired ammo that hadn't been produced since WWI and didn't work very well when they were brand new. They sent the gun off for "testing" in Washington but it disappeared along the way. They convicted him anyway. He was eventually let out of prison when his lawyer showed there was no proof he had a working machine gun. They knew it wouldn't work. That's why it disappeared. BTW it turned up a few years later when a hard nose state policeman died and the people auctioning his estate reported finding that machine gun hanging on his mantle.

I went to my friend's trial and watched the parade of ATF agents testify against him making him out to be Machine Gun Kelly for owning a hunk of metal he knew wouldn't work when he bought it and if it did work he would never find brass or ammo to make it work. Besides that those guns were well known to melt almost instantly during that war. They were a joke even when brand new.

Maybe he shouldn't have had the gun. I'm no lawyer. I just know they eventually let him out of jail on that charge.

So yes I've seen ATF agents and how they operate. Ruby Ridge was no isolated incident and I have no doubt they were trying to entrap me. People just don't walk up to you and try to sell you a crate of battle carbine weapons that were banned from import because the company tried to sell shoulder fired missiles to gang members.

I love it when people try to guess what really happened from 1000 miles away and years removed. They assume they know things better than you no matter what your experience might be. Never mind that I've seen all kinds of corruption first hand from LEO's. Not all of them of course but a good percentage of them are and I know it for a fact. That's a discussion we won't have here. The same negative nancies would argue about it anyway. All those people telling me to watch out for the ATF were idiots too. I'm talking people I talked to every week almost. I'm talking different groups of people unconnected to the other sellers. I'm talking my friends too that weren't selling anything. Yeah ALL those people were wrong but some guy on the net in a whole other situation know better. Again I was told over and over that the ATF checked how many guns were for sale by the gun sellers. I don't know why but clearly it was some sort of violation. They all told the same story.

But feel free to think your assumptions are better based on whatever it is you base them on.

buck460XVR said:

I certainly am not insinuating the government does no wrong, nor do I disagree that ATF and other government agencies have used poor judgement, indiscretions and violated the law at times themselves. But the odds of a law abiding citizen, legally capable of buying, owning and possessing firearms, that buys a legal firearm at a gun show, being the target of a shady sting operation is not reality.

Your "nice guy" Randy Weaver is a prime example. What went down @ Ruby Ridge is certainly proof that mistakes have been made. But Randy was not as pure and innocent as freshly fallen snow either. He was targeted because he had already been implicated and charged with illegal gun sales and openly consorted with members of of what was then determined to be a major domestic terrorist group. Not your average gun show shopper. Folks that have determined that strangers are "nice guys" after "brief conversations" with them, many times end up their "victims". If I had to choose between having a ATF agent or a Skinhead Nazi living next door to me, the choice would be clear. How about you?



This. Do shady dealings or push the envelope of what's legal and what's not and you make you own destiny. Think that going to a gun show and by simply making a legal purchase makes you a target of a major sting operation is either paranoia or conceit.

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weaver cut a shotgun to 18" and they said it was 1/4 inch to short. We are supposed to believe he broke the federal law for 1/4 inch. They shot his wife in the head while holding a baby and you call that a mistake!!! I would rather have a skinhead next to me then a BATF agent being I have many guns and he would look to set me up and the skinhead would go shooting with me. Where are skinheads a major terrorist group? Did they burn down major cities causing billions in damage or create gangs that number in the millions selling drugs in a nation wide network? Skinheads are almost harmless blowhards and I don't see them shooting up schools either.

buck460XVR said:

As for the use of the provocatively dressed female ATF agent, why would the lure of sexual rewards be any more of entrapment that the lure of monetary reward? Teenagers breaking the law to impress a woman is just more of stupid is what stupid does.

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Absolutely, just because they're impressionable underage kids and it's the agents tricking them shouldn't mean anything. In fact let's tell some 10 year olds they can go to Disney Land if they just bring in daddy's gun and hand it over to the nice felon behind the counter making balloon animals.

But feel free to think your assumptions are better based on whatever it is you base them on.

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That's sort of what we all do.
The very definition of "under cover" is disguising one's identity. If you can detect an ATF agent by his appearance then it sounds like they aren't doing a good job of being under cover. I have seen plenty of ATF agents in court as well as lots of other government agents. FBI agents are the same. Yes they do tend to be neatly groomed and dressed.

Ryanxia said:

Absolutely, just because they're impressionable underage kids and it's the agents tricking them shouldn't mean anything.

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Maybe you know something I don't about the case. I just know what was in the link. Nuttin' there about the kids being underaged or bein' tricked. Article said they were teens. Could be eighteen or nineteen, not underaged. Unless you know something outside of the article about the case, you are assuming the kids were underaged. Even if they were 15-17, there's a lot of 15-17 year old gangbangers on the streets that are not innocent little kids playin' with Legos. If they have drugs and illegal guns, they must know where to get them, unless they made them. This tells me somethin'. Charging them in adult court also says something. Encouraging is not tricking. Young adults get encouraged to join the military or go to college all the time......are they being tricked?

And remember, there is probably an NSA nerd following the ATF agent listening to you cell phone calls.

buck460XVR

Maybe you know something I don't about the case. I just know what was in the link. Nuttin' there about the kids being underaged or bein' tricked. Article said they were teens. Could be eighteen or nineteen, not underaged. Unless you know something outside of the article about the case, you are assuming the kids were underaged. Even if they were 15-17, there's a lot of 15-17 year old gangbangers on the streets that are not innocent little kids playin' with Legos. If they have drugs and illegal guns, they must know where to get them, unless they made them. This tells me somethin'. Charging them in adult court also says something. Encouraging is not tricking. Young adults get encouraged to join the military or go to college all the time......are they being tricked?

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Good points.

km101 said:

One of the ploys that ATF uses is to find someone that has just purchased a firearm and offer to buy it at an inflated price. Then when the person sells the ATF agent the firearm they charge him with dealing in firearms without a license, since he just bought and then resold the firearm.

It's obvious entrapment but most people don't have the money to fight a felony charge in Federal court, so they wind up having to plead guilty. So an innocent sounding offer to buy your gun could turn into a felony charge if it's the wrong person asking.

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Link to the cases?

The reality is that it takes more than a single purchase and resale to be dealing in firearms without a license.

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Very true. The vast majority of those charged by the BATFE with selling guns without an FFL are crying out to be prosecuted.

A few years ago i looked at over 15 cases of people found guilty in federal court of selling firearms without an FFL. Several had been previously warned by the BATFE to cease and desist selling guns without an FFL. There is a lesson here: When a federal agent tips one off that he is doing something illegal it's time to stop.

This guy had been warned by the BATFE:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1997-01-23/news/1997023071_1_atf-mitchem-federal-firearms-license

Slightly Off topic.

This is a link to the BATFE pressroom. Some are getting serious time in prison for firearms convictions:

http://www.atf.gov/press/field.html

alsaqr - yeah, they're really going after prohibited persons now. Convicted felons, drug addicts who possess firearms, etc.

I can't say I actually mind that. It makes much more sense to go after criminals than try to mess around with entrapping otherwise law abiding gun owners. One actually accomplishes something. The other creates a problem where no problem should exist.

We should expect no less out of an enforcement agency. "Do your job, go get the bad guys, and leave the good guys alone."

Hey I'm all for the ATF doing their job. But they have overstepped their bounds in some spectacular ways including Ruby Ridge and Waco. The notion they don't play politics is not backed up by the facts. There are lots of known cases where they have stepped over the line. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't ATF agents on here defending what they do. After the stuff the NSA has done I don't see how we can dismiss that idea either. I know ATF people surf the net at times. I've talked to them and had them admit to being agents. They were just as abusive on the net as I've seen them act in person.

I hope you guys never find out how bad the feds can be. It can be a really bad ride and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. When you see a friend get sent to prison on a trumped up charge maybe you'll stop trusting them so much. I saw them flat out lie on the witness stand. I don't know what more they could do to convince me they aren't playing by the rules. My friend had problems for sure and he was breaking some laws. He had a drug problem. But he didn't deserve what he got. And the courts eventually agreed and let him out long before his sentence was up. They can do the same kind of thing to you. I believe they tried to railroad me into at least giving them information. The thing is I didn't have any info to give them. I don't know any illegal gun sellers. I'm a Christian. I belong to a church. I'm not a gang banger or a gun runner or a dope dealer or anything of the sort. I try to live by the law. But I've seen that isn't enough at times. There are lots of stories I could tell here but I won't.

Trent said:

alsaqr - yeah, they're really going after prohibited persons now. Convicted felons, drug addicts who possess firearms, etc.

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I'm looking at the list, some of them are getting up to 13 years for having a firearm and ammunition while being a prohibited person, most others seem to get 5 years.

Not true. The source for ATF (gun branch) agents is from the pits. The max for the prohibited person thing is 10 years, unless it's full auto, then it can be 20 years, or 30 years for a silencer. There's also the possibility of getting 15 to life for being a felon with a firearm, if they also have 3 predicate priors of bank robbery, burglary, or dope.

I"ve seen them be bearded, long hair,etc.

Do not kid yourself about always being able to "spot" them. Also, your best friend or your brother can be setting you up for them to arrest, because they caught him at something that you don't know about (or made up against him from the whole cloth). Just like the DEA and IRS do, on a daily basis.

Cee Zee said:

They show up at flea markets around my home area. I had one offer to sell me a crate of SKS's for $110 each once. I gave him the, "Wow, what a good price. Can I buy ONE rifle," routine and I never saw him again. But people had already warned me they were there that day. But they are there pretty much every time. There are sellers who always have several guns for sale and the ATF checks them out every time. They get asked a bunch of questions and as long as the sellers give the right answers that's the end of it. I have heard of people getting arrested there though.

What they did to me was clearly entrapment. Don't think for a minute that they play by the rules.

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What's illegal(Federal) about buying the crate of SKSs?

hatt said:

What's illegal(Federal) about buying the crate of SKSs?

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Nothing that I am aware of, unless there is some sort of state regulation against it. Speaking of $110 SKS', it was less than 10 years ago that you could buy the Yugo SKS 59/66 for less than $90 a piece in quantity.

hatt said:

What's illegal(Federal) about buying the crate of SKSs?

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Very unlikely but just a few examples; serial numbers discreetly filed off or illegally imported into the country.