Are ATF often 'plainclothes' at gun shows?

[788Ham]

At a well known gun show in the Denver area, at the entrances, just off the parking lot, there are posted signs everywhere stating, "No purchases to be made in parking lots" God only knows how many "Suits" are awaiting these transactions! "Newer" sellers with tables don't seem to get much business, hmmm, I don't even stop to chat with these guys.

 

[buck460XVR]

If you purchase a gun with the intent to resell it, that is dealing without a license. If you buy a gun, and immediately resell it, the ATF is willing to bet that they can convince you that they can convince a jury that you purchased it with the intent to resell it. They arrest you, get you to plead guilty for a lesser sentence, and there's one more bust under their belt.

Buying a gun for a good price does not show intent to resell it. Having someone come up to you, and without any recruiting by you, offer you considerably more than you bought it for, does not show intent to resell. The ATF is not going to waste their time on a scenario like this, unless they already know or suspect that individual is selling for profit without proper licensing. They have much bigger fish to fry. I would be more suspect that an individual like that would be someone not able to legally own a firearm or someone trying to pass a bad check or counterfeit cash. As for enticement in buying a illegal firearm, if you are willing to buy a firearm you know is illegal, you deserve to get caught. No different than trying to pick up a streetwalker or buying drugs outta the trunk of some strangers car. If the ATF is at a gun show, they are there looking for criminals, not to harass innocent law abiding citizens lookin' at guns. They are not going to try and wrongly convince you that you are in violation of something, just with the intent of having you plead down to a lesser charge. They have enough to do dealing with legitimate criminal activity. If they are there, odds are they already suspect a certain person/persons of dealing illegally and are watching them.....not you and any purchase you may make. Thinkin' anything else is a clear indication you believe way too much of what you read on the internet.

 

[we are not amused]

Someone correct me if I'm ill-informed, as I have never sold to somebody I don't know. A guy I work with is a gun collector. He said in a private gun transaction, both parties are to exchange ID info and the gun's SN. If caught not doing so, you could both lose $ & gun. I don't know if that pertained to Ohio, or in the U.S.

I don't know Ohio law, but it is not Federal Law, but might be required in some States, certainly in States with mandatory registration.

Now it may be a very good idea to exchange such information, especially it you don't know the other party, in fact I would strongly recommend it, in case the gun turned out to be stolen.

 

[Trent]

Nevermind.

 

[Vaportrail]

I was at a gunshow in Monroeville, near Pittsburgh and I was walking around trying to sell or trade in an old contender I had to a dealer. I had this guy come up to me and ask to see the gun. He started asking me all kinds of stupid questions about it and I could tell he had no idea what a contender even was. Finally he asked me if I would be willing to trade it to him. He had a big aluminum pistol case almost as big as a small suitcase. When we walked over to the side, he opened it up and inside it were 6 pistols. One was a Colt gold cup 45, one was a 29 smith with a 6 inch barrel and one was an h&K compact 45. There were also a couple cheaper pistols a Ruger single 6 a Kel-tec 9mm and something else I can't remember. He said if i saw anything I liked that he was willing to trade. Now I was born at night, but not last night, and I realized what was going on. I told him I wasn't interested in any of those guns, although I would have traded him 2 Contenders for that Gold Cup in a heartbeat. I followed him for about 15 minutes at a distance after he left, and I eventually saw him go up to 2 other guys, (also yuppie types), and they talked a while and one of the other guys took the gun case and started walking around. He was trying to set me up to trade him a gun for a gun and not go through a dealer. Be careful at gun shows, these guys are slick.

 

[deputy tom]

Quote{ I was at a gunshow in Monroeville, near Pittsburgh and I was walking around trying to sell or trade in an old contender I had to a dealer. I had this guy come up to me and ask to see the gun. He started asking me all kinds of stupid questions about it and I could tell he had no idea what a contender even was. Finally he asked me if I would be willing to trade it to him. He had a big aluminum pistol case almost as big as a small suitcase. When we walked over to the side, he opened it up and inside it were 6 pistols. One was a Colt gold cup 45, one was a 29 smith with a 6 inch barrel and one was an h&K compact 45. There were also a couple cheaper pistols a Ruger single 6 a Kel-tec 9mm and something else I can't remember. He said if i saw anything I liked that he was willing to trade. Now I was born at night, but not last night, and I realized what was going on. I told him I wasn't interested in any of those guns, although I would have traded him 2 Contenders for that Gold Cup in a heartbeat. I followed him for about 15 minutes at a distance after he left, and I eventually saw him go up to 2 other guys, (also yuppie types), and they talked a while and one of the other guys took the gun case and started walking around. He was trying to set me up to trade him a gun for a gun and not go through a dealer. Be careful at gun shows, these guys are slick. End quote}...


This would be where I would have said ," I'll take that Colt. Which FFL dealer shall we use for the transfers and are you paying for those transfers?". Then see what transpires. YMMV. tom.

 

[itsa pain]

Buying a gun for a good price does not show intent to resell it. Having someone come up to you, and without any recruiting by you, offer you considerably more than you bought it for, does not show intent to resell. The ATF is not going to waste their time on a scenario like this, unless they already know or suspect that individual is selling for profit without proper licensing. They have much bigger fish to fry. I would be more suspect that an individual like that would be someone not able to legally own a firearm or someone trying to pass a bad check or counterfeit cash. As for enticement in buying a illegal firearm, if you are willing to buy a firearm you know is illegal, you deserve to get caught. No different than trying to pick up a streetwalker or buying drugs outta the trunk of some strangers car. If the ATF is at a gun show, they are there looking for criminals, not to harass innocent law abiding citizens lookin' at guns. They are not going to try and wrongly convince you that you are in violation of something, just with the intent of having you plead down to a lesser charge. They have enough to do dealing with legitimate criminal activity. If they are there, odds are they already suspect a certain person/persons of dealing illegally and are watching them.....not you and any purchase you may make. Thinkin' anything else is a clear indication you believe way too much of what you read on the internet.

Not looking to harass "law abiding" people?? With the millions of laws around you would have lock yourself in a bedroom not to break any laws. Oops I forgot your bedroom might not have a mandated smoke detector. I never hear of the batf going in the hood and selling full auto arms or any guns to gangs or trying to buy them. I never read of the "big fish" to fry. Here in NY they have arrested 1300 small fish to bake. No big fish gang members yet

 

[ChaoSS]

This was over a year after the gun shop closed; I waited the 12 months prescribed by the ATF before selling any inventory that went "to personal" at the end of the FFL. (The lady I spoke with at the ATF licensing center said "it would be a good idea if you waited 12 months after closing so there's no doubt that you aren't operating as a business anymore").

Sorry, I misread your post. Thought you were still working as an FFL, not leftover stock from when you had been an FFL.

If the ATF is at a gun show, they are there looking for criminals, not to harass innocent law abiding citizens lookin' at guns. They are not going to try and wrongly convince you that you are in violation of something, just with the intent of having you plead down to a lesser charge. They have enough to do dealing with legitimate criminal activity. If they are there, odds are they already suspect a certain person/persons of dealing illegally and are watching them.....not you and any purchase you may make. Thinkin' anything else is a clear indication you believe way too much of what you read on the internet.

Of course, the ATF is always above board, and never engages in shady behavior.


Just so you know, your idea of what is illegal is not always the same as the ATF's idea of what is illegal.

 

[Drail]

From the mid 80s through the 90s I worked at gun show tables all over the Midwest and we almost always saw "plain clothes" ATF agents at the larger shows. The dealers at the tables would put the word out as soon as they spotted a pair ( they always worked in pairs) and within 10 minutes every dealer at the show knew who they were and proceeded to watch them closely. As far as I could tell what they were looking for were dealers selling firearms without all of the paperwork. You might be surprised at how many sellers (not FFL licensees) were doing that. I bought a couple of pieces that way.

 

[barnbwt]

"Maybe these basic traps should be posted in Large Print at the entrance to each gun show, although at the risk of giving a few people 'cold feet' about buying or selling(?)."

Not a bad idea, and still entirely voluntary on the part of the operators. Post a big sign telling people to remember to not sell to; fellons, straw-buyers, or to buy guns with the intent of selling them to others (straw/dealing in firearms w/o a license). A big poster with the 4 safety laws would be good as well.

At least then I'd have something to read while waiting in line to get in...

That said, I've seen shady stuff at gun shows (not to mention safety violations ), online, and everywhere else. The goal as a gun owner is to be aware of what rules you must abide to be in this market. You can't just rely upon what makes sense due to the burdensome regulations and arbitrary court rulings we have to deal with. You need to know your stuff, so you can avoid potential landmines which may or may not be stings. As soon as you do so, you will learn just how idiotic our legal situation is, and begin agitating for more intelligent and less restrictive laws.

I have a feeling the most sting operations occur in big cities with a Bureau office, and where there is a good breakfast/lunch joint nearby. No one's gonna drive 2 hours into the sticks to some random swap meet in plainclothes, "just cuz." If the market is known to be dirty or shady, you get what you deserve by doing business there, same as you deserve the consequences you reap by sticking around an unsafe public shooting range.

TCB

 

[Trent]

Sorry, I misread your post. Thought you were still working as an FFL, not leftover stock from when you had been an FFL.

No problem.

Of course, the ATF is always above board, and never engages in shady behavior.

Just so you know, your idea of what is illegal is not always the same as the ATF's idea of what is illegal.

In the post above where I typed "Nevermind"... I'd started typing a response to that same thing, recalling a brief conversation from a long time ago, with Randy Weaver. (Really nice guy, BTW.)

But I figured, screw it.

Some people have their opinions that the Government Can Do No Wrong, and who am I to say otherwise.

 

[22-rimfire]

Quote{ I was at a gunshow in Monroeville, near Pittsburgh and I was walking around trying to sell or trade in an old contender I had to a dealer. I had this guy come up to me and ask to see the gun. He started asking me all kinds of stupid questions about it and I could tell he had no idea what a contender even was. Finally he asked me if I would be willing to trade it to him. He had a big aluminum pistol case almost as big as a small suitcase. When we walked over to the side, he opened it up and inside it were 6 pistols. One was a Colt gold cup 45, one was a 29 smith with a 6 inch barrel and one was an h&K compact 45. There were also a couple cheaper pistols a Ruger single 6 a Kel-tec 9mm and something else I can't remember. He said if i saw anything I liked that he was willing to trade. Now I was born at night, but not last night, and I realized what was going on. I told him I wasn't interested in any of those guns, although I would have traded him 2 Contenders for that Gold Cup in a heartbeat. I followed him for about 15 minutes at a distance after he left, and I eventually saw him go up to 2 other guys, (also yuppie types), and they talked a while and one of the other guys took the gun case and started walking around. He was trying to set me up to trade him a gun for a gun and not go through a dealer. Be careful at gun shows, these guys are slick. End quote}...


This would be where I would have said ," I'll take that Colt. Which FFL dealer shall we use for the transfers and are you paying for those transfers?". Then see what transpires. YMMV. tom.

Yeah, in PA handgun transfers have to go through a FFL dealer. That particular change in the law just slide right though and everyone claims PA is so pro gun.

 

[captmoto]

agent looking guysThat's funny. Haircut and shiny shoes is ATF or G man?

 

[StrawHat]

...polished shoes and military style haircut...

That is the way I dress normally! Have been doing so since the 80s. I guess I don't have to worry about selling anything to you.

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

"Maybe these basic traps should be posted in Large Print at the entrance to each gun show, although at the risk of giving a few people 'cold feet' about buying or selling(?)."

Not a bad idea, and still entirely voluntary on the part of the operators. Post a big sign telling people to remember to not sell to; fellons, straw-buyers, or to buy guns with the intent of selling them to others (straw/dealing in firearms w/o a license). A big poster with the 4 safety laws would be good as well.

At least then I'd have something to read while waiting in line to get in...

That said, I've seen shady stuff at gun shows (not to mention safety violations ), online, and everywhere else. The goal as a gun owner is to be aware of what rules you must abide to be in this market. You can't just rely upon what makes sense due to the burdensome regulations and arbitrary court rulings we have to deal with. You need to know your stuff, so you can avoid potential landmines which may or may not be stings. As soon as you do so, you will learn just how idiotic our legal situation is, and begin agitating for more intelligent and less restrictive laws.

I have a feeling the most sting operations occur in big cities with a Bureau office, and where there is a good breakfast/lunch joint nearby. No one's gonna drive 2 hours into the sticks to some random swap meet in plainclothes, "just cuz." If the market is known to be dirty or shady, you get what you deserve by doing business there, same as you deserve the consequences you reap by sticking around an unsafe public shooting range.

TCB

ATF agents around here are often seen at other TX, AZ and NM shows other than shows in this area. After all local ATF agents are known to the locals. I've talked with several dealers that do shows elsewhere that have seen our local agents at shows they were doing out of town. So yea they travel.

 

[Ryanxia]

They're usually around in plain clothes. Trying to buy a gun private sale with an out of state DL, or mentioning to private sellers with their own tables that they probably couldn't pass a background check, etc. As long as you stick to the law you should be fine.

Edit: I've even seen an instance where they accused an FFL of not being in compliance of 922R for one of his Saiga 12's. To which he said, sure am, prove that it isn't.

 

[340PD]

Yes they are in all sorts of dress and age. Table sellers follow the rules to the letter. It only takes one............

 

[Pizzapinochle]

I think a lot of you are VASTLY overestimating the frequency of ATF operations at gun shows.

http://www.justice.gov/oig/reports/ATF/e0707/final.pdf

This report was basically an audit of ATF operations. From 2004-2006, they conducted 195 operations at gun shows and the majority (77%) of those were targeted at an individual who was a part of an ongoing investigation.

Estimates are there are about 2,000 gun shows each year, so for those three years there were probably about 6,000 gun shows across the country and the ATF was only at about 200 of them, about 3.3% of shows.

So, while there may be plainclothes law enforcement of some sort at gun shows, they are probably NOT ATF and if they are ATF, they probably are watching a specific individual and not running around trying to catch people doing bad things.

 

[buck460XVR]

In the post above where I typed "Nevermind"... I'd started typing a response to that same thing, recalling a brief conversation from a long time ago, with Randy Weaver. (Really nice guy, BTW.)

But I figured, screw it.

Some people have their opinions that the Government Can Do No Wrong, and who am I to say otherwise.

I certainly am not insinuating the government does no wrong, nor do I disagree that ATF and other government agencies have used poor judgement, indiscretions and violated the law at times themselves. But the odds of a law abiding citizen, legally capable of buying, owning and possessing firearms, that buys a legal firearm at a gun show, being the target of a shady sting operation is not reality.

Your "nice guy" Randy Weaver is a prime example. What went down @ Ruby Ridge is certainly proof that mistakes have been made. But Randy was not as pure and innocent as freshly fallen snow either. He was targeted because he had already been implicated and charged with illegal gun sales and openly consorted with members of of what was then determined to be a major domestic terrorist group. Not your average gun show shopper. Folks that have determined that strangers are "nice guys" after "brief conversations" with them, many times end up their "victims". If I had to choose between having a ATF agent or a Skinhead Nazi living next door to me, the choice would be clear. How about you?

As long as you stick to the law you should be fine.

This. Do shady dealings or push the envelope of what's legal and what's not and you make you own destiny. Think that going to a gun show and by simply making a legal purchase makes you a target of a major sting operation is either paranoia or conceit.

 

[Elkins45]

I have never knowingly broken the law when buying or selling a gun, and for that reason I don't tend to worry too much about entrapment by ATF or anyone else. I suppose I could get tagged for something I did unknowingly, but I try to make it a habit to understand the requirement of the law.

I do have a question that is at least tangentially related to the conversation in this thread: is there any legal precedent for whether a private seller needs to positively identify the residency of a buyer before a sale? In other words, does a seller at a Kentucky gun show need to positively ascertain that a buyer is a Kentucky resident, or is the onus on the buyer to not attempt an illegal purchase? I'm not talking about state laws in states with additional rules, just the federal ones. I make buyers show me a KY ID, but I wonder if that is something I absolutely have to do?

FWIW if I were an ATF agent looking to bust guys for illegal sales I would do it from the comfort of home by browsing Armslist. I can't even begin to remember how many guys living in Ohio or Indiana I have seen listing guns in the KY Armslist ads with clear statements about being willing to trade/travel across the river. And I have gotten a bunch of emails from people across the state line wanting guns I have listed. Those can't all be ATF agents---some of them must be guys who don't understand the federal laws against private interstate sales.

 

[Pizzapinochle]

Elkins45: In my state, a seller is required by law to check for a state issued ID (usually drivers license) before selling in a private sale. Doesn't always happen (I always do, but have had sellers not ask for mine), but that is the law.

 

[Bubbles]

FWIW if I were an ATF agent looking to bust guys for illegal sales I would do it from the comfort of home by browsing Armslist.

Backpage is another place to look.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Define "often".

"Gun shows"...guns are present and being sold.

ATF: Basic job description is to enforce federal gun laws. Typically, this would require going where the guns are being shown and sold. Probably not going to be doing much of a bang-up job trying to enforce federal gun laws at Build-A-Bear in the local mall.

Personal impact: Zero. If I want to make a purchase, I'm not interested in shady deals. Sell me whatever it is I'm interested in in full accordance with the laws, end of story.

 

[Ken41]

There is a really good story in John Ross's book, Untended Consequences, about two ATF agents at a gun show. The junior agent, tries the sting, and gets arrested (citizens arrest). The junior agent is then handcuffed using an M1 clip. The other agent has his vehicle towed away from a no parking zone at the gun show. If you have not had a chance to read this book, you should. You will not be able to stop reading it. It is a little dated, late 90's. It also tells the real story of Waco, Ruby Ridge, and other such events.

 

[Cee Zee]

If they are there, odds are they already suspect a certain person/persons of dealing illegally and are watching them.....not you and any purchase you may make.

So all those guys who told me that the ATF checked them constantly were just lying to me. Wow. My eyes have been opened now. Here I thought that guy trying to sell me a crate of rifles that haven't been imported for 20 years was full of it. I should have gone to the bank and borrowed enough cash to buy all of them - and enough to pay a lawyer too.

The ATF is very much a presence at the local flea markets. Lots of people told me that. I was almost certainly approached by one myself. He wanted to set me up as an unlicensed gun dealer. No one is dumb enough to sell that many SKS's for that price. They haven't been that price since the early 90's. They wouldn't be hot either. No one has them around to steal in that quantity. They have all been sold years ago or at least the Norincos that he offered me have. Packed in cosmoline, still in the crate, and $110 each??? They probably came with a unicorn to haul them around for me too.

Again guys I have known a long time tell me the ATF always checks them and I get approached either by an international arms dealer or an agent. That or it was all just a coincidence and all those guys I know were lying. Pretty easy call from where I'm sitting.