Shooting Holes in Wounding Theories

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jski

jski

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I was going back and forth with some reloaders about what makes the most effective cartridge: fat & slow v. fast & small. And while doing some web searches I happened upon this website:

Shooting Holes in Wounding Theories

I was wondering if others had come across it and what they thought of it?
 
It looks like a thorough exposition. I only read the intro but I bet he comes down on the side of "shot placement is everything" that we hear so often.
 
The author's thesis is written (perhaps, because it must or should be) from the point-of-view of hunters and big game animals. Whoever this 'Rathcoombe' fellow is, in my opinion, his ideas are worthy of consideration; and, no, his thinking is far more complex and goes way beyond any explanation as simplistic as mere bullet placement.

At various points in his dissertation this, somewhat mysterious, author actually seems to be considering several (almost metaphysical) aspects of a: sudden, violent, and forcefully resisted end to material conscious being. In particular I like his comments about both Louis L'Amour's 'certain gunfighters', and Massad Ayoob's 'Terminator' article.
 
He appears to be quite the Renaissance man: "I am a Liberal Arts (English) and Mechanical Engineering graduate of Auburn University, drawn equally by Imagination and Reason. ... Possibly stirred by my Victorian and Western nostaglia, I have always favored shooting sports and big game hunting, though I can be a rather extreme environmentalist. Life is more paradoxical than logical and I am comfortable with contradiction."

As an engineer myself, I recognize his approach: empiricism + thorough numerical analysis.
 
Looks like he wounded some theories.....by shooting holes in them. ;) One cannot ignore, however, that Evans and Sanow's conclusions are drawn from actual shooting events; any conclusions drawn from ballistic gelatin are merely a substitute for actual human flesh and bone data. Fackler has studied a ton of that, but then developed the ballistic gelatin formula to be able to test loads that shooting data isn't available for. Data from those tests is merely a 'placeholder' until actual data from real shootings can be collected.
Then there is the whole 'variables' can of worms. There are too many variables in terminal ballistics. Some humans will drop to the ground when hit, because that what the media has drilled into their brains will happen when shot. A 98-lb. woman might take 15 rounds of <insert caliber here> and keep coming, while her 300 lb. husband will drop from one. Body chemistry at the time of shooting plays a large role in reaction, adrenaline can cause reactions from nothing at all to increasing homicidal mania. This is why CNS hits are (pardon the pun) vital; when the communication pathway is severed, all the adrenaline in the world won't make the muscles move. The next best method, physiolgically, is disabling the limbs themselves. This is extremely difficult to do with most guns, however. The third most effective is sudden drop in blood pressure; again hard to achieve. Gradual blood pressure loss and the resultant shock are slower, but easier for most of us non-Tier 1 types to achieve.
My primary aiming point on the human-shaped targets I practice on is the same as on deer; The Aorta. Secondary is the "T" on the face.(Not on deer, obviously) HIts on target on the aorta will cause faster blood loss than anywhere else on the body, and near misses hit a lung. Hits on the "T" (should) cause instant CNS disconnect, misses will cause facial damage with the attendant severe bleeding, possibly eye damage, reducing effectiveness considerably.
 
"..................................... what makes the most effective cartridge: fat & slow v. fast & small."

Every choice has to be a compromise. The distance that the bullet must cover has a great deal to do with the selection. The old .45-70 was a Jim Dandy killer on the plains buffalo, but would be woefully inadequate for a 400 yard shot at a big horn sheep. The .220 Swift is plenty fast and covers distance right smartly, but not what you'd want to use on a buffalo.

Bob Wright
 
I think the most effective is 9mm/ 38 special and up, with a reliably feeding hollow point from an established company delivered into the vitals in a number no less than 2. Repeat as necessary. It also helps if the shooter can apply the fundamentals quickly and under stress, resulting in those strikes to the vital areas. IMO, everything else is just theory.
 
I vote for large and slow with a big flat nose like a Freightliner. I may be wrong but as Hunter S. Thompson said - "it's always worked for me".
 
It lost its credibility from their cavalier treatment of facts and statistics, to the point I think most that are very serious about wound ballistics study consider it complete fiction. It didn't go much into mechanics either, which is what much of the true study has been about. In the discussions of M-S Ive seen, it made me wonder why anyone took it the least bit serious any more, but,...

So, does it actually have anything useful, or were any of the events real? Their treatment of the subject leaves me with doubt of anything they say at this point.
 
My wife has worked in Truama I, ER, CVICU, CV OR, and other units for over 30 years and she says in the ER they had lots of people come in shot.

Those shot with .22/.25 many times walked in complaining.

As the cartridges power and shot placement improved more were carried in, some though still talking.

But, those hit square with a shotgun were always carried in, and NEVER talking (or even awake.)

She said those shot with shotguns didn't look so bad when they cleaned up all the blood, but when they cracked open their chest, there was so much internal bleeding from so many organs hit, it was hard to stop all the bleeding.

Yes there is such a thing as stopping power. It's not absolute. Many factors like emotional state(agitated people tend to hang in there longer), presence of drugs (meth in particular), mental state(as in psychos), physical state (big and fit TEND to hang in there longer).

But yes, bigger bullets TEND to stop better, faster bullets TEND to stop better, lots of bullets TEND to stop better, better designed bullets TEND to stop better. And yes correct shot placement TENDS to stop better.

True there have been cases where even the 12 gauge has failed (but not many), and cases where the lowly .25 has succeeded (but not all that many), but it is there and yes a 9mm isn't as capable as a .45 if given same ballistic shape and shot placement.

But yes there is a difference in 'stopping power' between cartridges. Not a great one but most definitely a difference.

So carry the most powerful handgun you can control and conceal (if need be). And most importantly... shoot strait, for skill is number one.

Deaf
 
entropy said:
I didn't say take it as Gospel-but to ignore it leaves one ignorant of a lot of data on actual shootings.
Click to expand...

I know. Neither do I want to start another (potentially stupid) internet gun forum argument; however, I've always found Marshall & Sanow's report to be, perhaps, sensational but unquestionably amateurish, and amounting to little more that imaginative speculation by a couple of pistol shooting hobbyists.

Myself? I prefer to study wound analysis reports done by either Fackler and/or DeMaio — To which, I might add, the subject study in THIS THREAD appears to be a worthy addition! Here, for your perusal, are several of the technical reports I like to keep on hand:

FBI Handgun Wound Factors

Law Enforcement Wound Ballistics

Self-Defense Bullet Performance

But, Marshall & Sanow? Naaa. If I were going to speculate on handgun bullet performance then I'd prefer to do it with one or more of the articles cited above. (To which I'm, now, willing to add the subject article of this thread!)
 
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What cartridge was used, what was the status of the usee after the use. Get enough of those straight reports and you can ignore the arguments about the mechanics of the thing, and the jello can be just for fun.
 
MartinS said:
What cartridge was used, what was the status of the usee after the use. Get enough of those straight reports and you can ignore the arguments about the mechanics of the thing, and the jello can be just for fun.
Click to expand...

The mechanics are important to develop better loads and information about how you want those loads to perform. Otherwise, you could be just treading water, and hoping something better comes along some day, and holding on to inferior bullet designs like a matter of faith. The actual results of the studies (and conferences etc) has been much improved handgun load performance today. The best of the current loads are much less to nearly never clogged by clothing, are more effective through barriers, including car doors and windshields. Same for current quality loads in 5.56. Many of the best of both are bonded now. That was the domain of larger game rifle bullets, but the effectiveness has been realized in handgun and 5.56 loads,....because the matter has been the subject of pretty extensive testing and development over time (wound ballistics study). Its been a couple years since I looked at details, but I believe the best expanding handgun and carbine loads are better at barrier penetration and windshields than common fmj bullets, and they still expand and penetrate well.

"Jello" shouldnt be dismissed as casually as many would like. Its not perfect, but over time, its been found to be close enough to actual shooting results that it is a good indicator of bullet performance. I think its misunderstood and misused at times. If not using the accepted standard type gell, and used in the correct ways, the performance is in the hobby realm. If its not calibrated at the time of use, I'm suspicious of the results. I used to have little faith in it also, but in studying in the matter, have come to feel it does have a valid place in the test realm. Not perfect, but very useful when properly used.
 
My remark was for us unwashed at the user level. Those who design and develop modern projectiles and loads need all the accurate predictive models they can get, and more power to them.
 
What he says makes sense. The only ways to drop someone are a CNS hit which is pretty much immediate or induce bleeding which at some point will lower blood pressure enough that they pass out and eventually die. The best way to do the second option is to hit the chest and rip through lungs, heart and major blood vessels. The bigger the path through the chest, the faster they bleed. Shots into muscle and the gut don't bleed near as much as shots in the lungs, heart, liver, aorta and spleen.
 
The first human shooting I witnessed was long ago and and in my youth. The shot was fired from a .38 Special 4" S&W "K" Combat Master Piece. The ammunition was issue FMJ round nose. The target fell over the barb wire. This simple out dated revolver and old time bullet was very fatal at 30 yards.
 
There are a lot of mechanisms of death in penetrating trauma that do not involve penetrating or perforating injuries of the upper CNS or hypovolemia due to blood loss. And there are non-lethal mechanisms of injury that may take an assailant out of the fight quickly or temporarily. Some of these are immediate and some are rapid.

A few examples: Gunshot wounds to the head that do not penetrate the skull will often cause unconsciousness. It is possible for penetrating trauma to cause upper airway obstruction either directly due to deformity of the trachea or larynx, or by flooding the airway with blood. Most individuals with upper airway obstruction will stop the fight immediately (remember the soldier who got shot in the neck in "Saving Private Ryan"?). Penetrating injuries of the chest can cause pericardial (cardiac) tamponade or tension pneumothorax in the absence of physiologically significant blood loss. With pericardial tamponade loss of less than 100 cc of blood into the pericardial sac can effectively disrupt cardiac function. With tension pneumothorax entry of air into the pleural space (chest cavity) either due to leak from perforated lung tissue, or a sucking chest wound, compresses and kinks the vena cava interrupting the return of blood to the heart. It is even possible in rare instances for non-perforating injuries of the chest to cause immediate cessation of normal cardiac electrical activity and sudden cardiac death (commotio cordis).

Other non-fatal mechanisms of injury that can immediately incapacitate an attacker include injury of major nerve trunks or branches going to the dominant upper extremity, wounds that fracture bones of the dominant upper extremity, or wounds that fracture weight bearing bones and joints of the lower extremity. A facial wound that effectively blinds the attacker will quickly take them out of the fight. And there are superficial arteries outside of the chest or abdomen that can be disrupted causing rapid and massive external bleeding such as the femoral, popliteal, and carotid.

None of these mechanisms of injury can be predicted or guaranteed, and not all are immediate. But it isn't always about hitting the CNS or blood loss.
 
rathcoombe.net/ isn't exactly an authority on much of anything. It's some guy's personal ideas that aren't based on reality.
 
I've never seen this site before. Looks like a welcome source. I have to take a closer look at it and the information he links to. But worth an examination.
 
pblanc said:
There are a lot of mechanisms of death in penetrating trauma that do not involve penetrating or perforating injuries of the upper CNS or hypovolemia due to blood loss. And there are non-lethal mechanisms of injury that may take an assailant out of the fight quickly or temporarily. Some of these are immediate and some are rapid.

A few examples: Gunshot wounds to the head that do not penetrate the skull will often cause unconsciousness. It is possible for penetrating trauma to cause upper airway obstruction either directly due to deformity of the trachea or larynx, or by flooding the airway with blood. Most individuals with upper airway obstruction will stop the fight immediately (remember the soldier who got shot in the neck in "Saving Private Ryan"?). Penetrating injuries of the chest can cause pericardial (cardiac) tamponade or tension pneumothorax in the absence of physiologically significant blood loss. With pericardial tamponade loss of less than 100 cc of blood into the pericardial sac can effectively disrupt cardiac function. With tension pneumothorax entry of air into the pleural space (chest cavity) either due to leak from perforated lung tissue, or a sucking chest wound, compresses and kinks the vena cava interrupting the return of blood to the heart. It is even possible in rare instances for non-perforating injuries of the chest to cause immediate cessation of normal cardiac electrical activity and sudden cardiac death (commotio cordis).

Other non-fatal mechanisms of injury that can immediately incapacitate an attacker include injury of major nerve trunks or branches going to the dominant upper extremity, wounds that fracture bones of the dominant upper extremity, or wounds that fracture weight bearing bones and joints of the lower extremity. A facial wound that effectively blinds the attacker will quickly take them out of the fight. And there are superficial arteries outside of the chest or abdomen that can be disrupted causing rapid and massive external bleeding such as the femoral, popliteal, and carotid.

None of these mechanisms of injury can be predicted or guaranteed, and not all are immediate. But it isn't always about hitting the CNS or blood loss.
Click to expand...

Question for you since from your response you seem to be knowledgeable in the medical side of things.

Years ago I remember seeing or reading about rifle temporary cavitation causing temporary paralysis by basically "stunning" the nerves of the spine. The statement was in response to a video of guys getting shot in the chest/back with an AK and falling down and bleeding out but not moving around much. What is your thought on that?
 
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