Do you really think there is that much advantage to carrying a full sized pistol?
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bangbang01
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This is true at least in my state.
If someone threatens physical violence even without a weapon (I'm going to knock your teeth in), and you don't have the ability to retreat, you can legally draw your weapon or even shoot depending on the circumstances.
Trunk Monkey
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I want to be really clear on how I say this because it's NOT just semantics.
I do NOT carry a gun in "anticipation of killing my enemies in a gun fight".
In fact, making such a statement on a public forum could be used to establish that you INTENDED to kill someone if you ever do have to shoot someone in self defense. If you don't believe me just wait because I'm certain a lawyer will be along shortly to back that up.
There is a time line from the time I decide I need to shoot and the time I actually shoot.
If AT ANY POINT along that timeline the person I'm shooting at STOPS BEING A THREAT I'm done.
I'm NOT trying to KILL anyone My goal is to stop the threat with the MINIMUM amount of force necessary.
https://ccwsafe.com/blog/social-media-self-defense
"Your post or comment can and will be used against you in a court of law. It will go to your mindset, motive, intent, character, view of minorities, etc.
Your post or comment may very well inflame a juror against you. Assume that all potential jurors disagree with you politically and socially. that is the safest assumption."
Your post or comment may very well inflame a juror against you. Assume that all potential jurors disagree with you politically and socially. that is the safest assumption."
https://www.cmattorneysstl.com/2016/09/21/social-media-practices-criminal-defense-lawyer/
"Would you say it in a court of law? Given that many social media profiles are public, police officers, prosecuting attorneys and judges may be privy to what you post on your pages, and what is posted about you. Ask yourself, could this be used against you?"
http://www.journal-news.com/news/social-media-posts-admissible-court/3QDTMfoPdGGAZ4VBW1bFXN/
"I personally have been involved in several trials where credibility was completely lost in a matter of seconds when the witness was presented with something inconsistent they had written in the past.”
bangbang01
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This 100%
We live in a different world these days.
Even if we didn't, the only reason one should use a firearm is to stop a threat, not kill a threat.
We're getting a little far afield of the original questions. However:
I don't know of any case law that supports the idea that after 2 or 3 shots, SD legally converts to something else. Yes, I'm pretty familiar with the case law surrounding SD shootings.
Nope. Search "disparity of force" here on THR and you'll find some excellent posts on the matter.
SteveChuck
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Where do you carry? Rural area? Small town? Suburb? Or in a larger, more crowded metropolitan area? Something I want to point out is that if you go to a range - outdoor - and take 2-3 different size handguns with you - compare the accuracy of each versus the other. Start at 3 yards, go to 5 yards, then 7, then 10. Picture yourself with a disabled vehicle on a dark country road one evening, nobody around and you having to walk down the road to find assistance due to no Cell coverage with that nice little Sig 938 9mm - versus a full size Hi-Cap .45 ACP Springfield XD, or Glock etc... Now, compare that to carrying in downtown Atlanta, on a crowded MARTA subway car, going on and off platforms trying to keep a full sized Hi Cap 9mm concealed AND available. Whenever the "terrain" and situation dictates, I carry full size, largest caliber I have. Why? Longer range, more stopping power at longer ranges and as someone else stated, easier to manipulate in case of malfunction, reloads etc. By the way - with the right holster, carrying full size does NOT have to be "perpetually uncomfortable" unless yhou are a Soy Boy who doesn't like to burden themselves with anything other than a I-Phone. Bottom line, carry what YOU as an individual feel most comfortable with - shooting, holstering and maintaining. I myself would rather put two rounds of .45 ACP fired out of a 5" barrel into the sternum of an attacker at 7 yards, - versus 4 rounds of 9mm or a whole mag of .380 at 3 or 5 yards. It all depends on where you live, work, travel etc..what is the threat and how do you envision you stopping that threat?
JR24
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I don't find a Glock 26 (smallest gun I shoot well enough to consider for carry) all that more difficult or uncomfortable to carry over a Glock 17, 21 or 1911.
I shoot the full size better, more accurate and faster good hits at speed.
So I carry a bigger gun, except in the few real hot weeks in the midwest, when I go lighter.
Currently I have been carrying a government size, double stack, 1911 daily, all day, IWB and don't find it terribly moreso uncomfortable over my aluminum 3" ultra carry, which is my "need extra concealment" option.
Significant advantage? Don't know, don't care. I do what works for me and don't much worry about what others think/do.
I shoot the full size better, more accurate and faster good hits at speed.
So I carry a bigger gun, except in the few real hot weeks in the midwest, when I go lighter.
Currently I have been carrying a government size, double stack, 1911 daily, all day, IWB and don't find it terribly moreso uncomfortable over my aluminum 3" ultra carry, which is my "need extra concealment" option.
Significant advantage? Don't know, don't care. I do what works for me and don't much worry about what others think/do.
JR24
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Last time I had a cleaning I had a Kimber Warrior 5" 1911 @ 2:30 under an untucked oxford shirt and I'm sure noone was the wiser.
I pretty much agree with Steve Chuck. I usually carry an old XD-40. For other reasons I am wanting to replace it but it will most likely be with something about the same size & caliber. I have an inexpensive subcompact belt gun in a Taurus PT-111 Millenium G2 that works is 9mm & is slightly smaller than the XD. I also have a Kahr CM9 for when I need deep concealment. I also carry a 1911 in .45 at times. I believe any gun is better than no gun. I don't really care to carry anything smaller than 9mm luger. If carrying a larger gun I prefer larger calibers. I like 9mm in small guns. I choose to carry the largest thing practical for where I am & what I am doing. Yes I believe a full size gun offers definite advantages because they are easier to shoot well. I tend to think the G-19 size range is a good compromise for concealment & shootability.
Why do you believe that the nature of the threat would vary according to where one lives, work, and travels?
mljdeckard
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Huge? Probably not. I would place more emphasis on the disadvantage of carrying a tiny pistol.
I carry full size, ut it's mostly out of conditioning. It's what I started with and I'm used to it. I actually use oversize guns, double-stack 1911s.
I carry full size, ut it's mostly out of conditioning. It's what I started with and I'm used to it. I actually use oversize guns, double-stack 1911s.
mljdeckard
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I should also note, comfort is directly relative to your level of enthusiasm about the whole idea. If you take someone who hates guns, and have them try on a XD-S in a nice tuckable holster with a good belt, they will hate it. They will say it is impossible to be comfortable with it. But if you take a gun nut kid who just got hos permit in the mail yesterday, and handg a Desert Eagle in a shoulder holster under his left arm, he will swear he can't even feel it.
bangbang01
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OMG this is so true.
It feels like whenever I BS with other gun owners about CC at a range, gun show, gun store etc.....it seems like I can usually tell if they're the pocket gun/snubby revolver types or the full size duty gun with extra mags and a BUG type by their level of enthusiasm or sometimes craziness. It's the guys that are in between these two types that are a lot harder to make.
There is this guy at my range that is really intense when you talk to him. He's super knowledgeable and looks like he's had some form of professional firearms training when he shoots, but he just seems a little off. He's got those bulging Charlie Manson eyes going on. He just talks really loud and doesn't seem to understand personal space either. He'll come up and start a conversation with you while right in your face. You can tell he doesn't do it to be a jerk, it's just his personality. Anyways, I saw this guy at one of my stores a couple years ago, and he was wearing an olive green jump suit, jungle boots, and a tactical belt with all kinds of crazy stuff on it. He was open carrying what looked like a Glock 17 with 4 extra mags and a full sized Ka-bar LOL. He came up to buy a charging cord from this poor kid at the electronics counter that looked like he was going to pee himself after being berated with questions from this guy who sorta sounds like Macho Man Randy Savage when he talks on top of being super loud and in your face........Yeah, I had him pretty pinned from the second we met.
wildcatter109
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If any weapon is being used, they are considered putting you in imminent danger, as well as if you are being attacked by multiple attackers under the legal definition of Imminent threats. There are many circumstances that could come into play and make someone without a gun or knife putting you in imminent danger. If they are handing down an azz whippen, and you shoot them when they are unarmed, by Ohio law you are going to be charged and arrested. Now there are many different scenario's that you may be able to beat in a court of law, as I believe you should in some cases, but no weapons, in Ohio, plan on being charged. If the assailant is in a wheel chair, you could probably get out of that to,,,, if you hired the right layer,Trunk Monkey maybe, or someone like that,,,,,
strangelittleman
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Ohs Noes! Multiples Attakahs!
Better have Endo take care of that!
Better have Endo take care of that!
Trunk Monkey
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If any weapon is being used, they are considered putting you in imminent danger, as well as if you are being attacked by multiple attackers under the legal definition of Imminent threats. There are many circumstances that could come into play and make someone without a gun or knife putting you in imminent danger. If they are handing down an azz whippen, and you shoot them when they are unarmed, by Ohio law you are going to be charged and arrested. Now there are many different scenario's that you may be able to beat in a court of law, as I believe you should in some cases, but no weapons, in Ohio, plan on being charged. If the assailant is in a wheel chair, you could probably get out of that to,,,, if you hired the right layer,Trunk Monkey maybe, or someone like that,,,,,
Quit while you're behind dude
If only...
bullseye308
Member
Well I carry a Glock 17L with a TLR-1HL IWB daily with no discomfort and a spare mag or 2 on the off side. With a good belt and good holster it really is t a problem. I shoot it well, it is extremely reliable, has plenty of capacity, and I really enjoy shooting it. I occasionally carry a Glock 17 with the same light just as easily.
If you don’t have confidence in your weapon, ammo, and skills very little else matters. I have that with my setup. Sadly I’m not as thin or light as I used to be and this does make it easier for me to carry a full sized pistol, and the fact that I do not work and live in an open carry state means wherever I choose to go I’m not really worried about printing or accidentally showing it. I avoid “victim disarmament zones” at every chance as well.
I could get by with a smaller gun and could probably be just fine with one as the odds of ever needing it are slim, but lately the odds in life haven’t been good to me and I’ll take all the help I can get.
If you don’t have confidence in your weapon, ammo, and skills very little else matters. I have that with my setup. Sadly I’m not as thin or light as I used to be and this does make it easier for me to carry a full sized pistol, and the fact that I do not work and live in an open carry state means wherever I choose to go I’m not really worried about printing or accidentally showing it. I avoid “victim disarmament zones” at every chance as well.
I could get by with a smaller gun and could probably be just fine with one as the odds of ever needing it are slim, but lately the odds in life haven’t been good to me and I’ll take all the help I can get.
bangbang01
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Of the two cops that i personally interact with, one (my cousin) carries a Berreta px4 storm or sometimes a keltec pf9 depending on the weather. He's a big guy (6'3" 240lbs) so he's able to pocket carry the pf9 when he does carry it. The other cop I'm close with carries a Glock 19 which is the same gun his department issues. I'm not sure if the one he carries off duty is his actual work gun though. He also ankle carries a little 25acp as a bug. It looks like some type of Baby Browning clone. I'm not sure of the make.
huntsman
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Trunk Monkey
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Well as you said the manufacturer doesn't define those as full size guns however adequate they are to the task.
Berger.Fan222
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I learned to carry the pistol without being perpetually uncomfortable. I found a holster I liked and learned to dress around it.
Thanks for replying I appreciate you taking the time.
What I am saying, is I carry a gun in anticipation of possibly needing it. That is why I listed all the advantages of a full-sized handgun. I carry in case I have to confront a gang, active shooter, or a thug.
"There is a time line from the time I decide I need to shoot and the time I actually shoot."
I'm not sure what you mean ... could you give an example please? I am asking sincerely I am not sure what you mean. As an example, if someone said give me the car keys or die and I practice my draw I cannot imagine what would stop me from pulling the trigger in that 1-1.5 seconds. I can imagine drawing or brandishing a gun without shooting ... is that what you mean?
"I'm NOT trying to KILL anyone My goal is to stop the threat with the MINIMUM amount of force necessary"
The way I see this is there is no scenario I can imagine where I would be using deadly force, shooting at a fellow human being in public, and I would not hope for a hit to the face/spine/heart. I am a martial artist and agree that I should use the minimum amount of force necessary, especially in a physical fight. I would use force according to the situation. It depends on the situation. If I see a gang banger kicking an elderly black woman on the ground calling her a ******, or someone raping a young child, that is different than someone losing their temper, or a drunk guy trying to fight me in a bar... concerning but definitely where I could use 'minimum force'.
I think mindset is important and it is important to remember that "today could be the day" and to have a predator mindset. It will be a bad day if there is ever an active shooter where I am, hopefully I will be able to shoot them in the face in time.
I think there are valid legal concerns but that many typical concerns are blown out of proportion. For example one of my friends said I shouldn't have rifle armor as part of my home defense plan because of someone broke into my house with intent to kill me it would look like I was "looking for trouble". Besides the fact that body armor would help protect me from getting killed, it is absoutely ridiculous to imagine a homeowner would be charged with murder if someone invaded their home in Texas.
As I said, I live in TX, one could also argue I want to kill because I have a big gun, or because I used 200gr 10mm instead of whatever 9mm the local police uses. I feel confident I could explain my reasons, and I think the advantage defending my life outweights the theoretical advantage of being able to say I used the same weapon as the police. One could argue I was wanting to kill because I had an AR15 in the trunk ready to go. My primary concern is stopping the threat and I feel pretty confident I could explain that to a jury ... and that is assuming I have to go to trial which in most situations would be very unlikely. Also if I had to use my trunk gun the situation would be so extreme I think it would probably be easy to defend (or at least I'd be alive).
Anyways, that said I don't have anything stupid engraved in my guns. And I do get your point and I am aware Masaad Ayoob says to shoot to 'stop' but I do not live in CA and I agree with Gabe Suarez on this ... he has many posts on this but here is one ... just as an example. http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2017/07/understanding-fear-aggression-in-gunfighting.html
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