Best type ammo for self defense?

what i carry in my glock 19: https://www.underwoodammo.com/9mm-l...solid-monolithic-self-defense-ammo-816-1.html

this is for two-legged critters. don't know how it will do against bruins.

luck,

murf

[Deleted--from deleted post]

I have been shot at too. Unless the bruins have escalated the situation, how does that pertain to bear defense? The number of times I have drawn weapons in the presence of bears and cats is numerous.

SharpDog said:

We can go on all day measuring ourselves, doesn't change the science.

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Exactly. From your linked article:

But Brenner loaded the pistol with full-metal-jacket bullets that penetrated to the bear’s vital organs, he said. [Not JHP]

In the last week in July, 2016, Phil Shoemaker had use a 9mm pistol to kill a grizzly that was threatening his clients and himself. It worked. [Phil used the BB 147 gr HC, not JHP]

Maybe the other had success with JHP, I don't know. The above two thought penetration was important.

Again- No argument that the HST is a great two-legged and dog load.

SharpDog said:

I use Federal 147 gr. HST Tactical +P exclusively. The fact that you need anything else is a myth. Quickness of presentation and shot placement are key.



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https://www.ammoland.com/2020/03/up...r-attack-93-cases-97-effective/#axzz75j22M85M

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Hey Sharpdog,

I love the performance of Federal HST 147+P!!
BTW...do you know ANY site or person who has any for sale?

ReggiesFree said:

Hey Sharpdog,

I love the performance of Federal HST 147+P!!
BTW...do you know ANY site or person who has any for sale?

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https://www.firequest.com/NL649.html

https://www.bonefroggunclub.com/col...147gr-federal-premium-tactical-hst-jhp-p9hst2

Split the difference for SD by going with 124g. For larger animal encounters bog with Underwood Extreme Penetrator in the highest pressure your pistol can handle. The amount is made for that purpose. It achieves amazing penetration since it does not expand (excessive for EDC), and it makes good cavitation in a wound channel by fluid transfer. It is literally designed for woodsman dangers. I use it when hiking in black bear country — that is the dominant predator in PA.

If the concern is bears at all, and you're stuck with 9mm- skip ANY JHP loading, and any pointy fmj round (Unless your pistol just won't feed any flat point).

Hardcast +p, like the kind shoemaker used on the big bruin. It's a thin reed imo, but it beats harsh language

.455_Hunter said:

I don't care about an ammoland article. FBI specification penetration performance is insufficient for an emergency bear gun.

Curious- How many times have you "supervised" a bear or mountain lion over the sights of your sidearm? It's an interesting experience.

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A friend and I were horseback riding the Pacific Senic Crest TRAIL IN Gifford National Forest after riding up a STEEP incline of the trail we stopped to rest our horses, while sitting in our saddles talking I heard a quite purring sound, looking around I saw nothing, so asked " Honest John " if he could hear anything, yeah it's just a plane flying over, well it's sure flying slow then cuz I've heard it since we stopped, twenty minutes ago, so both looking around saw nothing right next to us was a high cliff with a flat shelf and lying on top looking down at us was a HUGE MALE COUGAR, just purring away totally unconcerned with our presence. When we rode on 45 minutes later he was still lying there still purring. So not all Cougars are man-eaters, I wished him a long and happy life, always wondering how long he lived, still wish him well. However when walking in Alaska where I worked for years I most always carried my 450 Ackley Magnum, Brown Bears can be ENORMOUS.

beag_nut said:

I don't have any liking for 9mm unless it's against two-legged creatures. For me it's .357 Mag in my revolvers. For bears I carry 190 gr. handloads. For others it's equivalent to the 9mm quoted above, but in .357. Everything I shoot is handloads.

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Handloads, the only way to fly, the ability to create exactly what you want is worth the cost many times over, at least to me, my way of thinking.

Anywhere east of the Mississippi (where I'm at)
I feel quite comfortable with a 9mm. The fact that 95% of. my handgun training is with a Glock 19 for personal protection, then all the better just carry the same weapon out in the bush too. I'm more likely to get the weapon deployed, with quicker hits on target, and probably more hits on target than with my other options.....as much as I love my Smith 686-1 or Dan Wesson 744 or Colt Delta Elite. In the respective 357 Magnum, 44 Magnum and 10mm Calibers. I feel that my EDC is best suited for me in the woods as well. If I'm up in Grizzly country (been once in my life) or out in the African Plains (Never been) then whole nother story of course.

Anyways, in this day and age I guess you use what you can get your hands on ammo wise.....Ive got a few thousand Remington 9mm 124gr. +p Bonded Golden Sabres that have been in my carry mags for the last 5 years, and probably will be for the foreseeable future.

One last thought is the odds of an attack....im guessing an animal attack is far less likely than an attack by other humans....so another reason to stick with my EDC.

My own 9m.m. carry load is the FEDERAL 124 grain jhp. It is a bonded bullet, so it will hold together and still penetrate 18 inches in gel according to LUCKY GUNNER ammo tests. Most of the premium bullet 9m.m. loads will have similar performance. I WOULD NEVER CARRY THE 147 GRAIN 9M.M. ammo. You are much more likely to be attacked by an 2 legged predator than a 4 legged one.

The 147 grain bullet was super hyped after the FBI fiasco in CORAL GABLES, FL, where the agents did so badly against two very heavily armed criminals. The bureau said it was all the fault of a 9m.m. round that did not penetrate deeply enough. WRONG!
The 147 grain bullet usually is moving at .38 Special +P velocity's and while it will penetrate, it will only do .38 Special lead round nose type of damage.
That round was so badly thought of, it was named the WIDOW MAKER for all the times it failed in line of duty shootings. It does not expand, so if used for self defense against a more likely two legged predator, it will over-penetrate and have an ice pick effect. I doubt it will do much better against a large cat or bear.
If you want to use a 147 grain bullet, then I would go with a premium bonded hollow point bullet. My agency issued WINCHESTER 147 grain jhp ammo and now has gone to SPEER G2 Gold Dot 147 grain jhp ammo. These rounds should penetrate a little deeper than the 124 grain ammo, maybe 2 to 4 inches and will expand at least somewhat.

The real reason this ammo is getting a lot of attention with law enforcement agencies is that it has mild recoil, especially compared to +P 9m.m. or .40 S&W ammo. The high failure to qualify rate with the .40 S&W doomed it, in my opinion.

Mountain lions are not that big. A big male will likely be about a large dog size. A black bear is different. A large male can get really big, but it is not that common. Here in FLORIDA, they do not get as large as some of the CANADIAN black bears, but they will not get even close to a brown bear or grizzly size.
Also, one poster here told of killing a black bear with a 9m.m. Unless the animal is enraged or one of the LARGE BLACK BEARS like we had in CANADA, a 9m.m. should be adequate.

Jim

The handgun you mentioned should not be considered "self defense" material for the four legged critters you mentioned.

Handguns sacrifice power for the convenience of portability and concealability.

That said... there are handguns designed for hunting. But they sacrifice a bit of portability and concealability to do it.

Pick a decent self defense round for two legged critters and carry your rifle for the others. There are plenty of good choices out there.

The problem here is there a significant lack of situational understanding by many of these responders, especially those hailing from locations far away from the intermountain west. The fact that you live in Florida, South Carolina, Virginia, etc, does not mean you have expressly useful information for the OP's scenario. My response to a thread on defensive wildlife concerns in the swamp or bayou would be similarly unhelpful.

Point #1- "Two-legged threats are more dangerous than four-legged threats." In some areas, that is true. In other areas and situations, that is ABSOLULTY NOT TRUE. Hiking, recreating and generally living in prime back bear and cat territory shifts those curves significantly. My family has had weapons out of holsters in response to bear and cat issues orders of magnitude above the frequency for two-legged issues.

Point #2- "Just use your rifle." Many of the common mountain recreational areas are essentially no different legally than a city park. Do you open carry a rifle in your local community park? How would that work out for you?

Point #3- "Get a better gun." The OP desired input on the best load for his 9mm, and not a discussion on how he should buy different firearms. Spending other's peoples money is easy.

borrowedtime69 said:

Thanks guys! I'm still reading & working through the options. If I'm able to stumble into some money I would like to get a .357, but the ammo is more expensive and hard to find along with shelling out $600 to $850 for a gp100.

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Then until things change financially for you, when going out into the wilderness, I would have two magazines with two types of different rounds in them. When in black bear country, the loaded magazine and chamber would contain the 147gr FMJ or the hard cast from Buffalo Bore for black bear protection (https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=62#9). The second magazine would contain your normal personal defense round. I use a Federal 147gr HST in my bug.

Just don't forget to change out the "black bear" chambered round and magazine with your personal defense loads once you return to civilization. While the above will require a little more thought and work on your part, it helps accomplish your goal of protecting against a bear and at the same time staying within your budget and financial means. Also, don't forget the bear spray!

CodeSection said:

FWIW: EDC .40 180gr JHP HST and a bug 9mm 147gr JHP HST.

When I'm at our CO home, and since we get black bears in our yard weekly coming within a few feet of our walkout basement, and occasional mountain lion, for a variety of reasons, I feel a .44 Mag revolver in a chest holster is a solution for my situation. Thus, I bought an Alaskan .44 Mag and practice with 240gr JSP and carry 300gr JFN. Plan A is bear spray, Plan B is the Alaskan. Since I take my dogs out on leashes at night to do their thing, I have missed an encounter literally within seconds. So my bear encounters are quite high.

Data shows most people do not even realize they are by a bear until they are 14 feet from it, IF it is that close, you may get lucky and have only one shot. Thus, in my situation, I want the best odds of stopping the threat.

To be fair, the .44 Mag is not for everyone. I happen to enjoy shooting full loads with mine. Reasonably priced ammo for the .44 Mag can be found.

If you insist on using your 9mm, then absolutely buy the 147gr FMJ or the hard cast from Buffalo Bore. BTW, here is a link to Buffalo Bore's take on Black Bears https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=62#9.

Here is a link regarding handguns and bear attacks https://www.ammoland.com/2020/03/up...r-attack-93-cases-97-effective/#axzz76POtOIIx. While both of the links give some form of support for a 9mm against black bear, I would strongly suggest against using a 9mm unless that is all you have. I would strongly suggest you buy a larger caliber revolver.......

https://ring.com/share/e64d10ee-75e9-4579-afa3-d2bc91b34e7c

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Back in the early 80''S I

SharpDog said:

I use Federal 147 gr. HST Tactical +P exclusively. The fact that you need anything else is a myth. Quickness of presentation and shot placement are key.



View attachment 1025496

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/03/up...r-attack-93-cases-97-effective/#axzz75j22M85M

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Yeah, I could almost guarante the luck of mine would put me right smack-dab in the middle of that 3% failure rate, so it behooves me to stick to my 1911 loaded with Winchester 230 grn JHP, goes in one side out the other, DOA, also chest to tail end, but more likely to use Win 230 Black TALON, NEVER goes wrong, IMHO finest and deadliest bullets ever created.

How about these?
Hey Guys,

Always been a big fan of Federal 9mm 147+p JHP, yet they are discontinued & the available boxes are going north of $145 plus shipping!!
Found some Underwood 9mm Luger +P 147gr. JHP on Midway. My first time ever seeing these in a while.
The spec sheet on these is incredible --- 1125 FPS & 413 Muzzle energy.

Does anyone have experience with this ammo?
Looks like Nosler is involved with the production of these.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/9mm-luger-p-147-grain-jacketed-hollow-point.html

I run Underwood defenders. Woods walking penatrators. Both 9mm +p.

defjon said:

Unless your pistol just won't feed any flat point

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Imma gonna want a bunch of test rounds through any gun shooting those loads.

golden said:

A black bear is different. A large male can get really big, but it is not that common.

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I've seen a number of bears here on the NC coast, all between 150 & 250 lbs, estimated. I thought that was as big as they got until our nephew killed a 425 lb male.

TarDevil said:

I've seen a number of bears here on the NC coast, all between 150 & 250 lbs, estimated. I thought that was as big as they got until our nephew killed a 425 lb male.

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When I lived near the nc coast in whiteville. I went out side to smoke around 11pm. Doing my thing and hear the loudest and deepest growl I’ve ever heard. Ran inside. Few weeks later went trekking through the woods and saw some decent bear tracks. Never got to see one just hear them and see there tracks. Now gators are a different story. Saw plenty in the swamps fishing at Lee’s lake.

Meeks36 said:

Now gators are a different story. Saw plenty in the swamps fishing at Lee’s lake.

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I know this is getting s little off topic, but part of my property is in a swamp... in fact it curls around is and gators are just part of our life. I have a folder full of pictures I've taken within 100 meters of our house. I've walked among them enough to begin understanding some of there sounds.

There's one estimated at 15 feet that traverses between the swamp across the road to a remote pond. I've seen him once. Some wildlife folks also saw him when they were looking for a neighbors kid injured on a four wheeler. They spread the word to be cautious around these bodies of water. I know one hunter who abandoned a tree stand in the swamp when photos of this guys were circulated.

Meeks36 said:

I run Underwood defenders. Woods walking penatrators. Both 9mm +p.

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Hardcast??

ReggiesFree said:

Hardcast??

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Monolithic, copper. Looks like a Phillips screw driver.