Do You Think This .380 Round Is Sufficient For Self-Defense?

[riverats]

“Do You Think This .380 Round Is Sufficient For Self-Defense?”

At the age of nine, while playing outside, I had the misfortune of witnessing a murder ... the weapon involved was .22 lr revolver. So, in all likelihood, that .380 round would be sufficient.

 

[Monac]

“Do You Think This .380 Round Is Sufficient For Self-Defense?”

At the age of nine, while playing outside, I had the misfortune of witnessing a murder ... the weapon involved was .22 lr revolver. So, in all likelihood, that .380 round would be sufficient.

The question was not "Will this round sometimes kill someone more or less instantly?". It was more like "Is this round a good choice for preventing someone from killing me?".

22 rimfire has killed a great many people, some of them dead before they hit the ground. So has 380 FMJ. But that isn't the criteria here. Practically any cartridge on the market today can penetrate enough to kill instantly at least sometimes, depending on where it hits. That is not the quality we are interested in here.

It was stopping effect, rather than instant lethality, that caused the development of improved pistol bullets for use in self-defense and police work, and I assume that is what the original poster is asking about. I realize that killing an assailant on the spot is one way of stopping them, but it is not essential to doing so.

 

[PCparabellum]

You make a good distinction. I think about the fact that there will be different levels of BGs. Some might be hard criminals, some amateurs, some druggies and some mentally ill and violent, some getting revenge from work or love. I imagine many will be discouraged but there might be that meth head with ‘super human strength’ as we were trained for. Saying that, I carry .380 and am comfortable with all the above.

 

[Kleanbore]

I had the misfortune of witnessing a murder ... the weapon involved was .22 lr revolver. So, in all likelihood, that .380 round would be sufficient.

Doesn't follow.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

After reading over the thread and the nonsense attribution to the significance of one shot stops, I would like to point out that the vast majority stops, astoundingly HUGE according to pro gun folks like Kleck, occur in the millions and are successful without firing a a single shot. Caliber is irrelevant. Whether or not the gun is loaded apparently isn't relevant either because no shots get fired. Taking it one step further. If you keep current with the news, you will learn that a lot of people manage to stop bad guys by firing and NOT even connecting with the bad guys. These are all psychological and not physiological stops. If you read the original one shot stop information, a lot of the stops being made did not incapacitate the aggressors.

Strangely, the one time we truly want to have the ability to make one shot physiological stops that incapacitate an opponent is when the opponent that is extremely determined and aggressive, we don't have data for this.

So is a .380 enough? In the vast majority of cases, sure, it will be just fine. It will be fine because you won't actually have to shoot or if you do shoot, you won't have to incapacitate your opponent. That is the reality of most self defense situations.

Will it be enough for the truly determined and aggressive attackers that are on PCP, meth, or who are channeling uncontrollable rage and whose sole purpose at that moment only includes doing your harm at any possible cost, will a .380 enough for that? Nobody has the data to be able to tell you that you will be able to make the necessary shot or shots to incapacitate the attacker with a comparative weak caliber (.380) of a well documented weak platform (pistols) before your aggressive manages to do significant or lethal bodily injury to you.

I got a real kick out of the folks proclaim their feelings of security (not feeling under gunned). I guess it is easy to not feel under gunned when you aren't actually in a life or death fight. Obviously, you can't know if you are under gunned until you find out what your opponent or opponents are bringing to the fight table. Recalling back to the North Hollywood bank robbery, every interview I saw with the non-SWAT cops and some of the SWAT cops noted that they were undergunned and none of them were shooting puny .380s. Even the officer with the shotgun who arrived on scene early quickly learned just how undergunned he was.

 

[Armored farmer]

I do know for a fact that a 95gr Federal FMJ penetrated about 12" of possum, right through it's forehead, exit below chin, re-entry near sternum. The bullet exited again very near it's tail, from about 15' away. About 5 minutes later it attacked the shovel I was using to bury it, requiring BFT to dispatch it.
I lost faith in .380 for anything but a last resort.

I think of my .380 as strictly 'last resort'...as any other defensive gun.
I also believe that you may have experienced the same affect on the posdum from a .357Mag or a 5.56mm.
I had about an identical experience when using my cc 9mm.

 

[Paul7]

The question was not "Will this round sometimes kill someone more or less instantly?". It was more like "Is this round a good choice for preventing someone from killing me?".

22 rimfire has killed a great many people, some of them dead before they hit the ground. So has 380 FMJ. But that isn't the criteria here. Practically any cartridge on the market today can penetrate enough to kill instantly at least sometimes, depending on where it hits. That is not the quality we are interested in here.

It was stopping effect, rather than instant lethality, that caused the development of improved pistol bullets for use in self-defense and police work, and I assume that is what the original poster is asking about. I realize that killing an assailant on the spot is one way of stopping them, but it is not essential to doing so.

Hearing any gun fired at them will stop lots of attacks. They aren't likely to stick around analyzing what caliber just went by their head.

 

[Paul7]

Will it be enough for the truly determined and aggressive attackers that are on PCP, meth, or who are channeling uncontrollable rage and whose sole purpose at that moment only includes doing your harm at any possible cost, will a .380 enough for that? Nobody has the data to be able to tell you that you will be able to make the necessary shot or shots to incapacitate the attacker with a comparative weak caliber (.380) of a well documented weak platform (pistols) before your aggressive manages to do significant or lethal bodily injury to you.

No guarantee in that scenario with any handgun. Here's a perp shot 14 times with a .45, including a number in the vitals, who didn't stop: https://www.police1.com/officer-sho...5-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job-clGBbLYpnqqHxwMq/

The cop involved has since switched from .45 to 9mm for greater ammo capacity.

I got a real kick out of the folks proclaim their feelings of security (not feeling under gunned). I guess it is easy to not feel under gunned when you aren't actually in a life or death fight. Obviously, you can't know if you are under gunned until you find out what your opponent or opponents are bringing to the fight table. Recalling back to the North Hollywood bank robbery, every interview I saw with the non-SWAT cops and some of the SWAT cops noted that they were undergunned and none of them were shooting puny .380s. Even the officer with the shotgun who arrived on scene early quickly learned just how undergunned he was.

What civilian is going to be involved in something like that?

 

[Armored farmer]

Thanks, I hadn't seen that. I don't watch a lot of gun videos on youtube but I like Paul Harrell. I like how he sets up his "meat" targets. I think it is probably more realistic than gelatin.

I did my own testing.....I trust my .380 to an extent.
The Hornady Critical Defense was unacceptable. It was found inside a two liter bottle of water. I have a pic somewhere, but it was barely distorted on the tip of the bullet, inside bottle #1.

Fwiw, Federal HST 99gr is my choice.

 

[LookAtYou]

It's not hydrostatic shock. Fluidized tissue displacement is a hydraulic thing. The projectiles are made out of solid copper, which is harder than lead. They don't expand, and they don't deform as easily as lead, or jacketed lead, or hardcast. It's why modern mono solids are made of copper or brass. So the XD bullets have a better chance of punching through bone or other barriers without deforming.

Feel free to get on YouTube and search for testing on meat. They work. They work at least as well as JHP ammo. But in a marginal cartridge like .380, they have the benefit of not under-penetrating like many JHPs tend to do. It's up to you wether you want to research the design or not. I'm just giving you an option. Lehigh got a bad rap with their horrendous R.I.P. fracturing bullets. These are different.

I forgot I had taken these screenshots, this was back when I was heavy into my ammo research stage for .380. I've long known about the Xtreme line, and for a good while, was set on the Xtreme penetrator. But, what do you think of this?

 

[WrongHanded]

I forgot I had taken these screenshots, this was back when I was heavy into my ammo research stage for .380. I've long known about the Xtreme line, and for a good while, was set on the Xtreme penetrator. But, what do you think of this?

View attachment 999568

View attachment 999569

View attachment 999570

Are you asking what I think of the suggestion that the "fissures" can close up under the "squeeze" pressure of the body?

Let me put it this way: You're currently carrying flat nosed FMJ, which is not travelling fast enough to produce much hydraulic wounding damage from fluidized tissue being diverted off of the meplat. So even if the "fissures" do close up somewhat, the lighter weight projectile of the Xtreme bullet, moving faster, is still likely to create more damage to soft tissue.

 

[LookAtYou]

Are you asking what I think of the suggestion that the "fissures" can close up under the "squeeze" pressure of the body?

Let me put it this way: You're currently carrying flat nosed FMJ, which is not travelling fast enough to produce much hydraulic wounding damage from fluidized tissue being diverted off of the meplat. So even if the "fissures" do close up somewhat, the lighter weight projectile of the Xtreme bullet, moving faster, is still likely to create more damage to soft tissue.

I was asking what you thought of the viewpoint in the screenshots. My thinking is, ESPECIALLY in .380, there is no more damage than the size of the bullet itself. Kinda goes back to my example that even .357 mag is debatable whether it causes wounding more than the size of the bullet itself.

As I mentioned, in the past I was down to deciding between flat nose FMJ and Lehigh Xtreme penetrator, and went with the FMJ because

1) I don't believe in the Lehigh claims, which leads to reason 2...

2) Since each bullet is only gonna cut a hole the size of the bullet itself, which design would seem to cut better. If you closely look at the meplat of the WWB 95 Gr Flat Nose, and the Lehigh, the WWB seems to be wider and like it would cut a larger hole. The Lehigh has a sort of "cross shaped" meplat, which takes up less space than the WWB meplat. I know it's getting very specific, but that's what it comes to down to when trying to make the most educated decision as possible.

Basically, IF the Lehigh claims of FT turns out to fail in a body, then a flat nose FMJ is better due to bullet design (wider meplat, aka larger cutting surface). Also the flat nose FMJ design would seem to be more stable against deflection off bone.

 

[amd6547]

Funny thing about my Beretta 84F…
I bought it on a whim. It was a pistol I wanted when I was young, splashed all over gun mags…but couldn’t afford.
When Israeli surplus 84’s showed up about five years ago at bargain prices, I couldn’t resist. Even then, I didn’t envision a serious use for it. In fact, I out right figured I would scratch that old itch, shoot it for a year or two for fun, and then use it for trade bait at a gun show.
A trip to the range changed all that. That Beretta 84F just fits my hand perfectly. Fast point shooting is effortless, and the DA/SA trigger is about as good as it gets. It’s very accurate in deliberate aimed fire, and I have rung the 10” round steel plate my club has at 80yds, lol… It is supremely easy to carry IWB.
Oh sure, it hasn’t replaced my G26 as my favorite carry gun. But the Beretta 84F does get some carry time, and feel pretty well armed with it. After all, people patrolled Tel Aviv or Jerusalem with it, Cleveland should be doable.

 

[WrongHanded]

I was asking what you thought of the viewpoint in the screenshots. My thinking is, ESPECIALLY in .380, there is no more damage than the size of the bullet itself. Kinda goes back to my example that even .357 mag is debatable whether it causes wounding more than the size of the bullet itself.

As I mentioned, in the past I was down to deciding between flat nose FMJ and Lehigh Xtreme penetrator, and went with the FMJ because

1) I don't believe in the Lehigh claims, which leads to reason 2...

2) Since each bullet is only gonna cut a hole the size of the bullet itself, which design would seem to cut better. If you closely look at the meplat of the WWB 95 Gr Flat Nose, and the Lehigh, the WWB seems to be wider and like it would cut a larger hole. The Lehigh has a sort of "cross shaped" meplat, which takes up less space than the WWB meplat. I know it's getting very specific, but that's what it comes to down to when trying to make the most educated decision as possible.

Basically, IF the Lehigh claims of FT turns out to fail in a body, then a flat nose FMJ is better due to bullet design (wider meplat, aka larger cutting surface). Also the flat nose FMJ design would seem to be more stable against deflection off bone.

Yes, his view point in the screen shot. What specifically about it?

I'm not going to argue with you about whether or not you should carry it. That's up to you. But when I pocket carried a G42 it was loaded with Underwood +P 65gr Xtreme Defenders. Now my wife has it, and carries it with the same. I haven't personally chrono'd the load, but it's supposed to be around 1300fps I think.

 

[Triggernosis]

Consider this ammo for the .380:
https://www.federalpremium.com/hand...onal-defense-hydra-shok-deep/11-P380HSD1.html
And a great article about it's history and development:
https://revolverguy.com/the-38-special-hydra-shok-deep-journey/

 

[LookAtYou]

Consider this ammo for the .380:
https://www.federalpremium.com/hand...onal-defense-hydra-shok-deep/11-P380HSD1.html
And a great article about it's history and development:
https://revolverguy.com/the-38-special-hydra-shok-deep-journey/

Thanks. I knew about the .380 already, but interesting to see they just recently came out with the .38 Spl version. Still wouldn't choose either in those calibers, but this would be my go to for 9mm or .40 for sure.

 

[LookAtYou]

I did my own testing.....I trust my .380 to an extent.
The Hornady Critical Defense was unacceptable. It was found inside a two liter bottle of water. I have a pic somewhere, but it was barely distorted on the tip of the bullet, inside bottle #1.

Fwiw, Federal HST 99gr is my choice.View attachment 999540

How is the recoil shooting HST out of such a light gun? I feel like a lot of the "snappy" comments about micro pistols come from people using hot JHP's in such a small package, as compared to something like FMJ.