Beyond "a Gun for Protection"

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Kleanbore

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My grandfather kept a .32 Long revolver next to his bed, and his son in law kept a .45 Automatic under his pillow. When I reached adulthood, I followed suit; I had long been a "gun guy". Later, a friend's father decided that he wanted "a gun for protection". He acquired an Astra 400.

In more recent years, a number of friends bought handguns--"for protection". Few were "gun people". Those who pursued state CCW permits. as I did, fired them at a target or two. We know that more training and practice is a really good thing. Let's pull on that for a moment. When we go to the range, we know where the target is, and we intend to shoot it.

But when we leave the range--we do not intend to shoot at anything or anyone. We should never find ourself looking for "a threat" to serve as a target.

We have learned that we may draw, point, and/or fire our defensive handguns only when we have a basis for reasonably believing that we face an imminent threat of a deadly force attack. Not when we are startled, not when we are frightened, not when someone seems to be approaching more closely than we might like, and not when we think that something bad might be about to happen. We should also know that if there is any alternative at all to going for the gun, we should take it.

So-where can we go for some advice on how to gauge that worrisome situation correctly?

For starters, just off he top of my head, I recommend that people immerse themselves in the works of Massad Ayoob, Tom Givens, Marc MacYoung, and Rory Miller. Members will surely add to the list.

I hope this proves helpful.
 
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AOJP provides objective criteria for determining if the situation you face may justify the emergency use of deadly force in self-defense and/or the defense of other innocent persons.

A criminal aggressor must have or reasonably appear to have:

ABILITY - The ability to inflict grave bodily harm (e.g., the aggressor is armed or reasonably appears to be armed with a deadly weapon; you face multiple unarmed aggressors; an unarmed aggressor has an obvious, substantial advantage in physical ability and/or skill),

OPPORTUNITY - The opportunity to inflict serious bodily harm (he is physically positioned to immediately harm you),

JEOPARDY - the aggressor's hostile actions and/or words indicates that he intends to inflict grave or fatal physical harm and you are imminent jeopardy,

PRECLUSION - There's no other reasonable option immediately available to you except deadly force to stop the attack.

When the "attack potential" elements of ABILITY, OPPORTUNITY, and JEOPARDY are in place simultaneously, then you are facing a reasonably perceived deadly threat that may justify an emergency deadly force response.
 
Shawn Dodson's post sets forth an excellent, excellent explanation of when the presentation of a deadly weapon would be lawfully justified--if the need arose.

The other side of the coin is about what proactive actions may obviate the possible need for going to the gun in the first place.

That's where the material I mentioned comes into play. The operative strategy for prevention has been described as ADEE--Avoid, Deescalate, Evade, Escape.

An oft repeated phrase is "don't go to stupid places with stupid people and do stupid things".

Back in 2008, before I had a CCW permit, and when I was planning to get one, a friend insisted on my taking him to a hardware store in a very questionable neighborhood. It was near Ferguson MO--before the notorious events there, but bad anyway, and after the French government had included it in a large area of St. Louis and St Louis County into which they advised their citizens to refrain from going. While my friend shopped, I saw a lot of iffy things going on outside.

I said to myself that I really didn't want to go back there unless I had a gun.

I realized not long thereafter that I shouldn't go there at all--that if there were somewhere that I wouldn't feel safe without a gun, I should avoid it, if at all possible.
 
I would suggest https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/ for a weekly compendium of useful information and searchable on various topics.

Also, if one could find legitimate, structured FOF training that is not just shoot'em ups but presents you with scenarios that take a variety of responses from verbal judo, fleeing to fighting - that's a good thing. Also legal ramifications. If you are near TX - I would recommend krtraining.com.

PNW - https://firearmsacademy.com/classes/overview
 
I started this thread by mentioning relatives who kept handguns handy for protection in the house.

As it happens, I have had to bring out the gun on three occasions to dissuade violent criminal actors. The most recent incident occurred just under six decades ago. Very fortunately, no shots were ever fired.

For years, I was mentally conditioned to respond to a bump in the night by going to investigate the source, gun in hand. I mention this because I think that a lot of new gun owners think similarly.

I know better now. As my CCW class instructor put it in 2008, "let the threat come to you".

I hope this proves helpful.
 
Is this thread another chapter of Things to Not Do? LOL Just teasing.
By the tittle I thought it was about "other" weapons to carry, like a club or brass knuckles.
Last couple nights I had my driveway motion dectector go off at 2 am. I have three of them pointed at my truck since it won't fit in my garage. I keep tools in it, and most of the time I bring in the most valuable ones but sometimes I don't. So when the alarm rings(three different rings so I know which side of the truck the movement is on) I go out with my baseball bat and a hand gun.
Been lots of thefts and vehicles broken into out here. I'm about a mile outside of city limits and the crooks love the suburbs.,
 
I think we all have similar family members and friends/acquaintances. They have a firearm for "just in case", but it's so far removed from being at hand they may as well not have it. Add to that it's not loaded, ammo stored separately as those new commercials are wont to tell us is necessity...

Can't tell them anything. I gave up. I've come to terms with the idea that for those people, it's probably safer for them and everyone else to just keep on keepin' on. If they can't make sound decisions when it comes to having a plan, chances are they won't make sound decisions trying to execute a plan.
 
Kleanbore said:
No. It's an invitation for members to advise and coach newbies.
Click to expand...
Not entirely in line with the original post, but this just popped into my mind as some random advice for newbies...

Don't stage your home defense weapons at the front/back door!

I say this, because I know someone who actually does this... and I think it's somewhat common among people who don't give home/self defense realistic thought. I even saw some add recently for a shotgun wall mount, showing the gun mounted next to the back door... If someone does break in unexpectedly, at that very door, you have just lost all access to your home defense weapon... worse yet, you just armed them had they not already been armed! Keep your home defense weapons deep in the house, somewhere where you can retreat to. Not right at the door!
 
I would first say, get training. I don't care if you've been shooting since you could walk, get training. The more training you have, the less likely it will be that you could be made to look as though you acted negligently.

Secondly, know your local laws. For example, is there a stand your ground statute or do you have a duty to retreat? Most self defense statutes, although articulated differently, say the same thing. Most usually revolve around acting on a threat of imminent death or great bodily harm to you or another. Where all of the trouble starts is in interpreting what is imminent. When a person draws a firearm and shoots someone it is based on their subjective assessment that the threat is imminent, but the standard at trial is whether the threat was objectively imminent. Would a reasonable person have thought the same way you did?

Man, that is one large gray area. If you tried the same set of facts to six different juries, the outcome would probably be similar to two guilty, two not guilty and two responsive verdicts of some flavor.

I guess what it boils down to is that if you ever have to do it, you'd better be pretty darned sure. Where I am, in south Louisiana, I've seen VERY few shootings where the shooter didn't at least get arrested.
 
Kleanbore said:
I started this thread by mentioning relatives who kept handguns handy for protection in the house.

As it happens, I have had to bring out the gun on three occasions to dissuade violent criminal actors. The most recent incident occurred just under six decades ago. Very fortunately, no shots were ever fired.

For years, I was mentally conditioned to respond to a bump in the night by going to investigate the source, gun in hand. I mention this because I think that a lot of new gun owners think similarly.

I know better now. As my CCW class instructor put it in 2008, "let the threat come to you".

I hope this proves helpful.
Click to expand...
Helpful, but not always applicable.
 
Very few shooters in southern Louisiana don’t get arrested? That seems odd unless “arrested” includes being detained in cuffs until LE figures out what is going on.
 
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Second the "don't go to stupid places with stupid people and do stupid things".

Another bit of advice is house/room clearing sucks. Oh, and lawyers are expensive.

From Paul the Apostle: "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone." That's probably the best advice.
 
Kleanbore said:
My grandfather kept a .32 Long revolver next to his bed, and his son in law kept a .45 Automatic under his pillow. When I reached adulthood, I followed suit; I had long been a "gun guy". Later, a friend's father decided that he wanted "a gun for protection". He acquired an Astra 400.

In more recent years, a number of friends bought handguns--"for protection". Few were "gun people". Those who pursued state CCW permits. as I did, fired them at a target or two. We know that more training and practice is a really good thing. Let's pull on that for a moment. When we go to the range, we know where the target is, and we intend to shoot it.

But when we leave the range--we do not intend to shoot at anything or anyone. We should never find ourself looking for "a threat" to serve as a target.

We have learned that we may draw, point, and/or fire our defensive handguns only when we have a basis for reasonably believing that we face an imminent threat of a deadly force attack. Not when we are startled, not when we are frightened, not when someone seems to be approaching more closely than we might like, and not when we think that something bad might be about to happen. We should also know that if there is any alternative at all to going for the gun, we should take it.

So-where can we go for some advice on how to gauge that worrisome situation correctly?

For starters, just off he top of my head, I recommend that people immerse themselves in the works of Massad Ayoob, Tom Givens, Marc MacYoung, and Rory Miller. Members will surely add to the list.

I hope this proves helpful.
Click to expand...

You make nice points.

But my take is that = born in NYC and lived there for 25 years.

Went armed at all times as an adult [ over 19 ].

NEEDED to be armed more than once [ and lived in my Dojo 6 days a week too ].

Now a retired cop and see that there are NO "SAFE SPACES" when you see gun free zones are NOT gun free.

I try hard to not go where there will be more than a 50% chance of any violence.

Modern times make me VERY situational aware when out in any restaurant,mall,shopping center,you name it and I am AWARE.

I am no more afraid than I am driving or lighting the stove [ spare tires and fire extinguishers etc ].

But being prepared and doing what ever training you can find is my go to.

Range at least once a week with what I EDC, as well as just fun times with friends doing casual shooting.

Either your "that guy" or your not.

My view !.
 
Kleanbore said:
I started this thread by mentioning relatives who kept handguns handy for protection in the house.

As it happens, I have had to bring out the gun on three occasions to dissuade violent criminal actors. The most recent incident occurred just under six decades ago. Very fortunately, no shots were ever fired.

For years, I was mentally conditioned to respond to a bump in the night by going to investigate the source, gun in hand. I mention this because I think that a lot of new gun owners think similarly.

I know better now. As my CCW class instructor put it in 2008, "let the threat come to you".

I hope this proves helpful.
Click to expand...

LOVE THIS !.

If any of those reading this are of the opinion they can "clear their house".

I TRIPLE DOG DARE YOU to find your one wacko friend .

Then arm him and tell him he wins 100.00 dollars if he can shoot you [ water pistol or paintball/airsoft gun ] before you do the same to him.

I know how that turns out --------- and your welcomed for the life I just saved.
 
Peakbagger46 said:
Very few shooters in southern Louisiana don’t get arrested? That seems odd unless “arrested” includes being detained in cuffs until LE figures out what is going on.
Click to expand...

Nope, I mean arrested. Just because a shooting occurred that was clearly some measure of self defense, doesn't necessarily make it justified. Of course, there may be a larger amount of discretion used in smaller jurisdictions, but generally speaking, yeah. You shoot someone, you're going to jail.
 
scaatylobo said:
LOVE THIS !.

If any of those reading this are of the opinion they can "clear their house".

I TRIPLE DOG DARE YOU to find your one wacko friend .

Then arm him and tell him he wins 100.00 dollars if he can shoot you [ water pistol or paintball/airsoft gun ] before you do the same to him.

I know how that turns out --------- and you’re welcomed for the life I just saved.
Click to expand...
I’ve had a decent amount of room clearing training over the last two decades. Half the time I can’t beat my kid in nerf hide and seek.

Clearing is terrible, especially done alone.
 
While most of my firearms are in my bedroom, 4 handguns are "under cover" in other rooms. Most of my long guns are in a glass-fronted wooden cabinet as well as 2 handguns. There is an open gunrack next to the bed with 3 guns on it, a 12 ga. SxS, my .357 hanging in its holster, and a rifle. There are two windows in the bedroom but their sills are about 4' above the floor so the chance of climbing out and escaping that way at my age and condition is very slim.
That being said, there are "other items" that I have that can be used either defensively or offensively with two being essentially "non-lethal".
See what I mean?
The 3' piece of garden hose and isn't likely to be lethal, just painful. The metal yardstick can break arm, wrist, and fingers if the narrow edge is used. It might be able to crush a perp's windpipe so it could be fatal, but unlikely.
The shaft with the weird blade is half of a set of loppers where the curved piece on the other handle broke. So I took it apart and sharpened and saved it as it gives me about 2' additional reach. It is also likely to disembowel or slit a throat and keep me beyond a hand-held knife.
Just "being prepared". ;)

Unconventional weapons.jpg
 
When I see threads such as this. I'm immediately taken back to the several trainings I managed to attend with James Jager and his very accurate thought process. Mindset, tactics, skill.......
How often do we blunder around absorbed completely by things that should secondary?
Phone, looking down avoiding eye contact when in public, that work thing? The point is you, must absolutely be aware of what is around you, who is around you, what are they doing, why are they doing it. Where are you physically in relation to some perceived threat, where is the best exit, cover, concealment. And no, you don't have to act like some paranoid fruitcake. Don't just stare at your menu, look around the room, capitalizing on the overview you took as you entered, exits, sketchy looking folks....takes practice, a mindset that your not going to be a statistic. Thusly armed with a good mindset, gives you more opportunity to not have to use a firearm, and backed up with the tactics part, perhaps a mental jump start on how your going to manage a situation rather than blindly react to it. Like a draw stroke, awareness takes practice.
 
Andrew Branca has alot of good stuff on self defense law. There’s still more that’s required than ability, opportunity, and jeopardy. I highly highly recommend you read his book. He gives you the book for free all you have to do is cover 7$ shipping. It’s not an ebook either it’s an actual book you can read. At minimum listen to his YouTube feed or podcast. He breaks down actual self defense situations and points out where people go wrong and mess up. Even though we have a right to self defense there’s still a correct way and wrong way to do it.

Free Book Deal – Law of Self Defense

lawofselfdefense.com lawofselfdefense.com
 
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