Knife techniques

Ever see a karambit?

They are designed specifically for cutting through the windpipe and through the vegas sheath and the cartiod artories.

They are designed specifically for cutting through the windpipe and through the vegas sheath and the carotid arteries. These knives have been around for a long time but only recently have they gotten the attention of SPECOP types. If any of the hype is to be believed the SEALS are issued one particular brand but I have no idea for sure.

I guess if I had to do such a thing I’d rather brain them with a hard and heavy object rather than attempting to keep them quiet will cutting their throat. But if I was going to cut the throat I’d certainly want a very high quality karambit.

Ah yes....the kerambit......

Aren't those hard to use, though, especially when you've got your trauma plates duct-taped to your back in case you take .308 rounds from an unseen shooter to you rear?


hillbilly

In the book "Kill without Joy"

There's a picture of a Gurka digging in and a headless Kraut nearby!

+1 vote for an awl into the brain stem

Never Bring A Knife To A Gun Fight,dont Bring A Pistol To A Firefight !!!!!!!!!!!!!

You need at least 5" of blade.

The area between the collar bone and shoulder blade makes a small hollow. This is immediate access to the lungs/heart with a long blade. The 7" Ka-Bar comes to mind as perfect. The opponent drowns in his own blood without any throat noise. It just bleeds into his torso, keeping it pretty clean, actually, and he's dead fast, and quiet all along. It's true, though, that two men makes this MUCH easier. One approaches from the front, casually. The other guy sneaks up behind and applies the drown on him. The man in front, of course, can close the gap and render any assistance in seconds, and nobody has fired any rounds, there's no pool of blood, and it doesn't freak you out and give you nightmares for months. He just dies.
If the mess isn't a problem for you, the tomahawk really is the medicine for edged weapons. Just don't miss the head, or the blade will be in his shoulder and he'll be making A LOT of noise, and you may even have to shoot him. There's a lesson here: Have a backup plan, because your first plan WILL NOT WORK.
Supressed pistol fixes all this nicely, and is messy, but no messier than the knife. If you're touching him with the muzzle when you fire, it's even quieter. One note. Grab your pistol, lock the slide back, insert magazine. Now, release the slide. That's as quiet as it's ever gonna get. No way around it. Back to the original question, why are we doing this, and why does it have to be quiet??

Smaller knives change direction quicker, and about 3 1/2" of blade will reach through the interstitial rib areas of a grown man.


Big gets you momentum, small gets you speed, to (over) simplify it.


Larry

In my iaido and kendo classes, this subject came up frequently. The basic target for immediately disabling the opponent is the same one as we all know from basic CCW class, i.e., the spine and CNS. Cuts with the katana have one of two basic purposes, to disarm by cutting the wrist (kote) or cutting the body through to the spine (do) or cutting off the head or splitting it top to bottom (men). This is given about 32+ inches of curved razor sharp steel. On the plus side, this ends the fight right away and leaves your opponent no chance for a counter. The other target is the tsuki, or throat, thrusting though all the way to the spine.

The Romans put great stock in the short thrusting sword, since even a shallow stab has a good chance of penetrating all the way to the heart. Many iai kata include these kinds of stabbing thrusts to the body, some with the blade stabilized by laying the right hand along the back of the blade while executing a short stab from very close in.

Knives were not considered to be worthy of being carried by men unless they were around 10 or so inches long, today's "tanto" style knives notwithstanding. I agree with everyone who likes big knives.

That said, with proper training, look what a bunch of box cutters was able to accomplish on 9-11-01 when superior weapons weren't available to those subject to attack. My point in saying this is, that if someone is determined to kill you and is willing to die to take you out, you have a problem no matter what your technical advantage. Training and mindset are most important.

Just as an aside, any fencer, European or Japanese, will have stories to tell about folks from other 'martial' arts (especially karate) believing that their skills in the one area will give them a huge advantage over us poor swordsmen, even though many of us also train in unarmed styles. They are generally totally disappointed when they find out the magnitude of the gap that they have to close regarding footwork, timing, distancing and precision. Karate people think they're being precise with their movements when in fact they are incredibly sloppy, doing things that would likely get them killed in a real fight. Edged weapons magnify: power, speed, lethality, and mistakes.

Knifework,whether "fighting/defending",or "quick,quiet and for keeps"sentry takedown can be tricky due to the variables involved.Footing,physical conditioning/mental outlook.Garments and equipment worn by the parties involved.I have had a bit of experience where I was trying to avoid getting stuck/cut and others where I was trying to do the same,in different settings.
As to technique:many knife,knife&stick techniques (but not all) have much in common with boxing moves.This can include footwork,hand and arm positioning/bodily orientation.If you haven't already,try this:go though some jab/uppercut,jab/hooh,jab/cross combo's empty handed.Now try and do the same withshort wooden dowells in each hand.Consider different grips(outboard,saber grip,chokingup with the thumb in some instances).
Different sizes and blade shapes lend themselves better to different grips;some may flow more into point forward(same direction as thumb),others may work with the point opposite the tumb.Like boxing blows,most movements begin and end from the centerline(i.e the core)Never get ahead of your own feet or your hands and arms....especially when there is a sharp pointy in your hands.No easy instant answeres.
Quiet elimination??In under the ear,behind the windpipe ...good spot if your working with a small blade,amd the guy is heavily dessed,armored up etc.Otherwise I'd just say take Mr. Sharp E-tool,Mr. Kuhkri,or Uncle Bolo and either split his cranium, down to the chin,or in th eevent of a helmet,chop at the neck,spine under the headgear.
body shots?What can you see/reach?blade size and shape? footing,confidence level? State of aleert with the target?Other conditions ???All of that stuff matters.
Hers a better idea...get someone else to do it.

Speaking of kidneys, wasn't it Jeff Cooper who advocated the kidney shot to induce severe pain? It brings the buddies out so they can be shot too... if I remember correctly.

Sport fencing is a complete joke as a means to prepare for actually using a stabbing blade. The scoring is based on what are essentially taps that would do little or no damage IRL. Back in college, until the instructor forbade it, I employed a three step/hop thrusting charge that would send my foe onto the ground and often break the flimsy foil in half. I'd lose the match on points, of course. But IRL a true rapier with 200 lbs of what was pretty much solid muscle back then behind it would have pinned my foe to the wall, leaving me with minor slashes on my side if even that. I don't know how they score in Japanese style fencing. The will to kill + a sharp object and substantial momentum count for an awful lot. That's another good reason to practice your Mozambique Drills on a regular basis.

But back to the topic, I really don't see any reliable way to neutralize someone silently and reliably with a short blade. A large sword is one thing, but largely impractical for stealth attacks in modern combat. The human head, neck and face is covered with loose and surprisingly tough skin plus a LOT of nerve endings and even little hairs that function to trigger an automatic reflex response before the victim has any direct awareness of an attack. It's just a cruddy target if your goal is a quick and quiet kill that exposes you to minimal risk. ANY method that involves reaching around the victim is not only difficult, it exposes a number of your own vital veins and tendons under your arm to counter attack. An attempt to pierce the skull and hit the brain stem runs into the solid mass of the skull itself as well as the slippery and tough layers of hair, skin and dura matter protecting the brain. A pick-like instrument stands the best chance, but even if it gets into the brain it may or may not kill, let alone kill instantly. The brain is a funny thing, and there are many recorded examples of brains surviving horrific penetrations including a railroad spike! All your pick may end up doing is removing some small bit of unimportant brain. A bashing attack on the brain as a whole stands a better chance. But best of all remains the looped wire around the neck.

I've cut the throats of enough animals and done enough surgery on humans to speak with some authority: Short blades suck.

Yes, they can certainly be lethal. They never jam or run out of ammo, are easily concealed and are cheap enough that you can afford to carry several of them if it suits you. The problem lies in getting close enough and applying them with sufficient vigor and accuracy to effect a result. While psychologically intimidating, defense against a knife attack can be mounted by something as simple as a chair, used "lion tamer" style - using the seat as a shield and the legs to jab and pin as you deliver multiple kicks. If you can find a willing buddy, try it sometime. It's an enlightening exercise.

I have a less-than-enthusiastic attitude for some of the edged weapon gurus who make the rounds. Outside of prison, there are few people who've been in a blade fight and fewer still who have any desire or credible ability to teach it. Finding someone who has survived a gunfight is rare. In my experience it's even more rare to find someone who has survived an edged weapons attack and attributed their survival to more than blind luck or the presence of a better weapon than a knife. (This would include my wife's grandfather who was bayonetted on Tarawa. He responded with several rounds from his M1, bandaged himself and got back into the battle.)

Kidney trauma is indeed very painful, as anyone who has suffered from renal colic can tell you. It is one of the few injuries painful enough to induce near-immediate incapacitation and shock. Kidneys are, however, fairly well protected structures so far as knives are concerned.

One of the underappreciated triumphs of WW2 was the development of the DeLisle Carbine, arguably one of the better tools for "sentry removal." It bears noting that it was created by the British, the same people who gave us the Fairbairn-Sykes "commando knife."

Don't know if this is a truly effective spot to go for in a knife fight, but it's a quote from one of my favorite movies, "Pitch Black":


Riddick: You mean the whispers?
Fry: What whispers?
Riddick: The ones telling me to go for the sweet spot, just to the left of the spine. Fourth lumbar down.The abdominal aorta. It’s a metallic taste, human blood – copperish. But if you cut it with peppermint schnapps, that goes away quickly.

Riddick: My recommendation – do me. Don’t take the chance that I’ll get shiv-happy on your wannabe a**.

The brain is a funny thing, and there are many recorded examples of brains surviving horrific penetrations including a railroad spike!

I think you mean a tamping iron. Old Phineas Gage was tamping a load of (black) blasting powder into a shot hole with an iron bar when a small problem occurred. As I recall, he lived for several years after the bar completely penetrated his brain and became one of the first case studies in personality change following brain trauma.

One presumes this lead to the adoption of brass tamping bars.

blasting powder into a shot hole with an iron bar when a small problem occurred.

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Moriarty = Master of Understatement?

My choice for this task would be a good ol' Estwing hatchet. If he's not wearing a steel pot, wack 'im with the hammer side right in the side of the head. I'd bet my Harley that he'd drop quick, fast and in a silent hurry. If his head is protected, turn it around and plant the blade in the side or back of the neck.
Just a couple of pennies...
Biker

As I tell people all the time, a knife is a tool for cutting things, or a weapon of last resort. A suppressed handgun is much better for sentry removal. Even better is a sniper with a suppressed rifle, to remove the problem for you.

Reality speaking, we just had a trial for Attempted Murder, where the Bad Guy cut the victims throat with a serrated knife, 8 inch blade. Cut from the victims left earlobe to corner of the jaw on the right side. Note it was Attempted Murder.

Knife fights almost always become two desperately wounded men slashing each other noisily to death, praying the other guy bleeds out first.

If you have to take someone out with a knife, he is going to make all kinds of noise, try his level best to kill you, and take a seeming eternity to die. You will have to set out to tear the life from his body, one hacking slash after another, with all the savagery you can muster. It is a brutal, vicious undertaking, and is seldom a quiet way to kill a man, even with surprise from behind and a Honkin' Big Blade (tm).

"Krieghund, have you ever tried "trapping" the arm or anything like a break on a resisting partner?

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Yes, actually. Its far from easy. Using chalk, i always got cut, mostly on the back and forearms, occasionaly the ribs... anyways, in most cases i would die from blood loss pretty quickly.

Anywho, it is possible, you just have to be very fast. Many times when we practice against knife attacks i just block the arms as fast as i possibly can, until the guy with the knife screws up, if he ever does. Ide much rather have cuts to my meaty forearms (I make maille all day) than to my stomach.

The point is, dont try to fight the knife. Fight the human behind the knife. Disable to human, youve got yourself a fighting chance. Do i thik i could survive a knife fight now? No, not really. But i have abetter chance than an average guy with no training.

And, of course, you can always try running away.

Fairburn's Get Tough might be useful.