Why carry a 1911 in Condition 1 over Condition 2?

If we are taking to the boondocks, astride a 4-wheeler or engaging in other activities that would make it likely to encounter a lot of dirty stuff...Hammer down on an empty chamber with the gun in a flap holster would afford the internals a lot of added protection and still retain the ability to ready the gun with one hand.

Click to expand...

I've spent a lot of time in the boondocks riding atop an M113 Armored Personnel Carrier -- which is a lot dirtier than any 4-wheeler. And did it day after day, week after week, month after month. The M1911 in my holster didn't need to be hammer down.

I can't believe this issue is still being debated.

Carry your 1911 in whichever condition you find most desireable.

If we are taking to the boondocks, astride a 4-wheeler or engaging in other activities that would make it likely to encounter a lot of dirty stuff...Hammer down on an empty chamber with the gun in a flap holster would afford the internals a lot of added protection and still retain the ability to ready the gun with one hand.

Click to expand...

I've been in the boondocks with my 1911. My 1911 stayed cocked and locked and was just fine. And cocking the hammer one-handed on a 1911 that has a beavertail safety is not high on my list of things that I want to do.

If some folks want to carry condition 2, that's their business. I don't get it, but it's a free country. But for folks to say that you need to be able to lower a 1911 hammer on a loaded round in order to safely own a 1911, that's just a crock. You don't.

Didn't say "need" Vern. I said that it offered better protection.

I can't either, Clarence.

for folks to say that you need to be able to lower a 1911 hammer on a loaded round in order to safely own a 1911, that's just a crock. You don't.

Click to expand...

Nobody said that, either. Cocked and Locked is as safe as a loaded gun can be...but Condition 2 is a viable option should one choose to exercise it...for whatever reason.

If some folks want to carry condition 2, that's their business. It's a free country.

Click to expand...

And that...right...there...is the bottom line. Always has been.

Nobody said that, either.

Click to expand...

Really?

If you're NOT capable of safely de-cocking a 1911, or can't understand WHY one would ever need to be de-cocked, you have no business handling one.

Click to expand...

I still don't understand who one would ever need to decock a 1911.

I agree with M1911. You may want to use Condition 2, and some others may have a need, but it is just another option.

I have no need for it, and choose not to use it. That should not preclude me from owning or using a 1911 as others have said.

Need has nothing to do with it. For the 544th time...It's a matter of choice. The design of the gun allows that choice.

After watching this and certain other arguments unfold...and taking part in a few...I've noticed something interesting. A distinct line gets drawn, and there are many who take the stance:

"This is the way that I do it and if you don't do it that way, you're an idiot."

The only hard, fast rules for gun carrying...gun handling...and gun shooting are:

1. The gun is loaded.

2. Don't point it at anything that you don't want a hole in.

3. If you don't want it to fire, don't pull the trigger.

4. Be sure of your target, and what is behind it before you point the gun and pull the trigger.

Beyond that, it's pretty much an open field. If Joe wants to carry a 1911 in Condition 2...who am I to decide what is right or wrong for Joe?

Some people carry their 1911s in Condition 2 or 3. Get over it.

Really?

Click to expand...

Yes. Really. If one doesn't have the manual dexterity to lower a hammer without shooting himself or somebody else, maybe he should take up needlepoint and leave the guns alone.

Hey Tuner, why not lock it out? Obviously this one is getting too bad imho, and I don't think that there will be any good information come out now. Just my opinion.

Yes. Really. If one doesn't have the manual dexterity to lower a hammer without shooting himself or somebody else, maybe he should take up needlepoint and leave the guns alone.

Click to expand...

1911Tuner, I agree with you that Condition 1, 2, 3, 4, are all options. You've been saying that throughout this thread and I agree with you. I also agree with your assertion that John Browning had no intention of using the 1911 in any way. That is not a point of contention.

I, and others don't like Condition 2 and choose not to use it. Condition 2 usage should not be a requirement to 1911 ownership since, in many people's minds there is no reason to use Condition 2.

I don't ride my motorcycle without a helmet, even though I could, but I choose not to so there is no reason to ever do it. I don't ride in the back of a pickup truck bed on the highway, even though I could, but I choose not to. My car can reach 150 MPH, but I choose not to drive that fast. Because each has the capability to be done, yet I choose not to use that option should not preclude me from owning a motorcycle or a pickup truck or a car that can do 150 MPH. I don't ever plan on using Condition 2, even though I could. I'm still a safe user of the 1911 style pistol.

I'm not suggesting anybody should be required to use Condition 1 or Condition 3, which are my preferences. Likewise, nobody should suggest I be required to use Condition 2 as a right of passage for 1911 ownership.

Likewise, nobody should suggest I be required to use Condition 2 as a right of passage for 1911 ownership.

Click to expand...

If someone suggested this they are wrong. I said and believe that anyone who owns and or carries a 1911 regularly ought to know how to safely decock a 1911. That is lower the hammer on a live round. If a fella is afraid to do so there are other guns to carry.

In this thread and others I have cited many occasions where folks have found condition 2 carry useful. You may not have occasion for this but since 1911 folks have carried their sidearms this way. For someone to say that they cannot think of an occasion that someone would choose to do so is disingenious at best. At worst, being disagreeable for the sake of it.

tipoc

I said and believe that anyone who owns and or carries a 1911 regularly ought to know how to safely decock a 1911. That is lower the hammer on a live round. If a fella is afraid to do so there are other guns to carry.

Click to expand...

I've owned and carried 1911s for about 20 years. I've never had to lower a 1911 hammer on live round, and see no situation in which I would need to do so. I'm not afraid to do it -- I simply see no point unless you are going to carry condition 2, which I'm not.

In this thread and others I have cited many occasions where folks have found condition 2 carry useful. You may not have occasion for this but since 1911 folks have carried their sidearms this way.

Click to expand...

You carry condition 2. Good for you. I don't.

For someone to say that they cannot think of an occasion that someone would choose to do so is disingenious at best. At worst, being disagreeable for the sake of it.

Click to expand...

I don't carry a 1911 in condition 2. I carry it in condition 1. For those of us who carry condition 1, we simply have no need to lower the hammer on a live round. So when you say that "I said and believe that anyone who owns and or carries a 1911 regularly ought to know how to safely decock a 1911," I simply don't understand your assertion for those of us who never carry condition 2.

So, for someone like myself who only carries condition 1, please explain to me when I would need to lower the hammer on a live round. I'm not being disingenuous. I simply don't understand your assertion. Why would I need to lower a 1911 hammer on a live round?

As near as I can tell, the only reason to lower a 1911 hammer on a live round is to carry in condition 2. But if you're not going to carry in condition 2, then what is the point? I'm mystified.

Yes. Really. If one doesn't have the manual dexterity to lower a hammer without shooting himself or somebody else, maybe he should take up needlepoint and leave the guns alone.

Click to expand...

You might want to reread my post on that, because it appears that you completely misconstrued it.

First off merry Christmas!

Second off, Christmas truce!

Too beautiful a day and place for this today!

tipoc

please explain to me when I would need to lower the hammer on a live round.

Click to expand...

You need to know how to lower the hammer on a live round for the same reason you need to know how to remove your own appendix using a razor blade and a shaving mirror.

someone should lock this thread. 13 pages and no closer to an answer for the question in the OP.

The best answer to the OP's question I've read on this much debated topic is that the thumb safety is slightly easier (ergonomically) to swipe off than the hammer is to cock.

I believe this is true, especially with bobbed hammers and enlarged grip safety beavertails. I find these latter features provide a higher hold without hammer bite, but do nothing to make single-handed cocking easier.

This answer neatly dodges the "safer to carry" issues of Condition 1 vs. Condition 2, which apparently can't be resolved.

So, for someone like myself who only carries condition 1, please explain to me when I would need to lower the hammer on a live round. I'm not being disingenuous. I simply don't understand your assertion. Why would I need to lower a 1911 hammer on a live round?

Click to expand...

See post #294.

1911Tuner: …there are many who take the stance: "This is the way that I do it and if you don't do it that way, you're an idiot."

Click to expand...

You nailed it right there- this sentiment is the fuel for about 95% of internet ‘debates’.

As I read, Charlie Miller the famed Texas Ranger was said not only to carry in Cond. 2 but also deactivated the grip safety by tying a piece of rawhide around it permenently. He carried appendix style with no holster but by tucking the pistol in his pants.

No one told him he couldn't do it either.........................

As I read, Charlie Miller the famed Texas Ranger was said not only to carry in Cond. 2 but also deactivated the grip safety by tying a piece of rawhide around it permenently. He carried appendix style with no holster but by tucking the pistol in his pants.

No one told him he couldn't do it either.........................

Click to expand...

I doubt that most of us are Charlie Miller, Bill Jordan, or Jerry Miculeck. Lol

Just because the best of a field can do something does not mean the average joe can.

If you are a Charlie Miller etc. then do as you please. If you are like the rest of us....do like the established experts in the field teach.

Training, again, is your friend. As I have stated several times before. Go through one advanced pistol class and then come back and post your opinion.

If you are an advocate of condition 2... I challenge you this: complete one singe advanced pistol course at any quality course (e.g. Gun Sight, LFI, Chapman, Farnam, etc) and let the rest of us know how you did. Where you finished in your group and what your thoughts are.

I would be willing to bet that there is not a single advocate of condition 2 that has shot multiple defensive handgun courses. IMHO

I'm not an advocate of Cond. 2.....just tired of everyone here trying to dictate to everyone else what to do.

Do as you please............just be safe about it.

Well lets see here....in what condition do "I" want to carry "MY" 1911. If God forbid I should ever have to use it in defense of my life, or the life of another, I would want to be able to operate the gun in such a way that it takes very little memory to do so, as I will most likely be very stressed by the situation. The options are as follows.....and keep in mind this is my choice which may not be comfortable to you, but it seems very simple. Keep in mind this comes from over two decades of carrying the 1911.

Condition One:
Magazine fully loaded, one round in chamber, hammer cocked & thumb safety activated.
Action upon aggresion would be to draw from holster and quickly enter into two hand grip using thumb to sweep the safety to inactive while drawing. Squeeze trigger and fire round at assailant. In my mind very simple operation in this condition with very little muscle memory.

Condition Two:
Magazine fully loaded, one round in chamber, hammer lowered to either half notch or down on firing pin blocked by safety in +80 series guns. Not safe to do on 70 series guns.
Action upon aggresion would be to draw from holster and quickly enter into two hand grip, but adjusting grip to allow using thumb to cock the hammer then regrip for accuracy and to prevent possible limpwristing and possible failure to function. Squeeze trigger and fire round at assailant. In my mind much more complicated, but can be done effectively with lots of practice and muscle memory.

Condition Three:
Magazine fully loaded, but no round in the chamber. Action upon aggresion would be to draw from holster and quickly rack slide, loading round into chamber, quickly grip the gun with two hands and squeeze trigger firing round at assailant. While the safest carry condition, by far the most complicated to perform in a stressfull situation. Takes up more time and much more chance for malfunction during loading process.

For me Condition One works best and I have timed myself in all three using the timer to cause some stress. I even had a buddy shoot me with a rubber band gun, in the arm, from the side, if he could advance and shoot me from 3 yards before I could get off a round into Center of Mass on a B-27 target in front of me. The rubber band stings if I dont do well and knowing ths really add a bit more stress to the situation. This is of course nowhere near what could be experienced facing a real aggresor with a gun or knife.

The 1911s a versatile gun. IMHO the most versatile out there. Not only can a person change out a lot of the externals to suit themselves there are 3 ways to carry the gun or have it close to hand. Shooters can decide for themselves what to do based on their concerns.

Back on Thanksgiving I thought the OPs question had been answered and this thread had run it's useful course. It's far from he first thread on this topic. There seems to be no useful point to it now.

Over the years I've had occasion to use all three conditions of carry or keeping the gun about. Some may think that was/is foolish. Since I began doing this long before there was an internet or gun forums I was, obviously, not overly concerned what folks, far removed from me, might think of this. But now that there is an internet and gun forums...I'm still not. It's not that I don't have respect for the opinions of others, it's just that I have known my own situations better.

I think that knowing how to place a gun in all three conditions and practicing some from all three is a useful thing to do. With an empty gun and snap caps slap fire, etc. is a handy thing to know and fun to practice. Same for one handed racking of the slide, etc. Some folks may think it is not. So don't. I have neither the power nor the desire to try to make a fella practice or do anything.

As I've said many times before Condition One is the fastest and best way to carry a 1911 when worn in a proper rig and self defense and speed into action are the primary concern. But other situations arise, they have for me, where the other conditions have their place and use.

tipoc

If you are an advocate of condition 2... I challenge you this: complete one singe advanced pistol course at any quality course (e.g. Gun Sight, LFI, Chapman, Farnam, etc) and let the rest of us know how you did.

Click to expand...

I'm interested to hear the opinions of instructors from these schools. I'm wondering how many would allow it.

If you are an advocate of condition 2... I challenge you this: complete one singe advanced pistol course at any quality course (e.g. Gun Sight, LFI, Chapman, Farnam, etc) and let the rest of us know how you did. Where you finished in your group and what your thoughts are.

Click to expand...

I think the poster of this statement missed much of the previous argument pointing out the merits of Condition 2 carry, or perhaps missed the whole thread. None of those arguments were bent on the idea it's the fastest method. But it offers mechanical safety advantages for unholstered carry that condition 1 does not. It seems this thread just re-invents itself with new comments tangential to the main points, or repetitive of old ones.