Why does everyone hate on condition-2 carry for 1911's?

[JTQ]

rebernie wrote,

Getting to Condition 2 is less safe (from an AD perspective) than flicking on a thumb safety. Carrying in Condition 2 is more safe (from an AD perspective) than relying upon the thumb safety.

I could probably be persuaded to agree with this statement.

The follow up question would be ... "how likely is an accidental discharge getting to ether condition and subsequently carrying in said condition?"

The 1911 has a thumb safety, grip safety, firing pin safety (some models), and some have counted the brain and the trigger finger as additional safeties.

To get an accidental discharge going to Condition 2, first you disconnect the "brain safety" when you tell your hand grab the pistol and disconnect the grip safety, then you disengage the thumb safety, then you disconnect the "trigger finger safety" when you put your finger on the trigger and pull, thereby disconnecting the firing pin safety. You have now defeated all of the safeties typically associated with the 1911 pistol. You are relying on the thumb and forefinger of your off hand to keep the pistol from firing. I'll give you that most don't oil the sides of their hammers, but most will likely have some oil on their slide and no doubt you just used that off hand to retract the slide and chamber a round possibly getting oil on your thumb and forefinger. The chances of not having a wide spur hammer is probably pretty good, since most of the 1911's sold over the past 20 years are not equipped with one. Now you probably have a slim, short hammer, and possibly a light coat of oil on the thumb and forefinger of the off hand you are grabbing the hammer with. Is that a likely scenario for an accidental discharge? You decide.

We have already conceded it safer putting the pistol into Condition 1 rather than Condition 2. Now we should consider how likely is it to have an accidental discharge while carrying in Condition 1. Let's say we have thrown our unholstered Condition 1, 1911 into our backpack with a bunch of other "stuff". To get an accidental discharge, something would need to disengage the thumb safety, and then together at the same time disengage the grip safety and pull the trigger. Is that a likely scenario for an accidental discharge? You decide.

I don't doubt there are thousands (possibly millions) of people who have safely put their pistol into Condition 2, millions of times. The question is which scenario is more likely to produce an accidental discharge? The first in Condition 2, where you have chosen to actively defeat all of the 1911's safeties, and where at least two posters in this thread alone have already admitted to having had accidental discharges with their own weapons going to Condition 2. No knock on them, I believe both are probably very safety conscious in their gun handling, but accidents do happen and you have chosen to bypass all of the 1911's safeties. Or is it more likely that somehow the thumb, grip, and firing pin safeties are all defeated by random chance in your backpack, barring of course you're not carrying a backpack full of clamps. We have had posters in this thread say their thumb safeties have disengaged, but none have had accidental discharges since the grip safety wasn't disengaged and the trigger wasn't pulled.

I will admit, as unlikely as I feel it would be for the thumb safety to be disengaged, and the grip safety disengaged and trigger pulled at the same time while in a pack, if I were carrying loose in a pack, I would put the pistol in Condition 3. The 1911 has many options for carry. The point is for you to understand the risks and benefits involved in each option and decide which is right for you. For me that means Condition 1 or Condition 3. If you have thoroughly weighed all the advantages and disadvantages of each mode of carry and chosen Condition 2, more power to you.

 

[PT1911]

for me it is two things... First, loading and dropping the hammer every day for years on end greatly increases the likelyhood that you will have an accidental discharge. Second, in a situation that would require you to actually pull your gun for self defense or the defense of someone else, you may not have time to take the effort of holding the gun in one hand and using the off hand to reach up and cock the hammer. (there is no reasonable way/comfortable way to cock the 1911 one handed...save the de-cocking for double actions that actually have a DE-COCK...

 

[rbernie]

Guys that do 2, what is your reasoning?

I carry my 1911 in Condition 2 in those situations in which I choose to carry a loaded pistol but cannot do so in a holster. I am simply not comfortable having my 1911 bounce around unrestrained in a pack or glovebox and trust to the grip/thumb safeties to not get inadvertently disengaged.

When I carry in a holster, I carry in Condition 1.

 

[REAPER4206969]

Why not simply leave it holstered in your glove box or pack?

 

[rbernie]

Most don't fit, due to their width. Those that do, don't let me get a clean draw. I wind up losing more time to getting the pistol out of the holster than I do in manually cocking it.

 

[doubs43]

Lack of confidence/training as well as ignorance of the pistols mechanics, or simply fear.

Or, none of the above. I choose to place my 1911 in condition 2 because that's what suits ME. When I need the approval of someone, who I don't know, posting on an internet forum, it'll be time to give up shooting altogether. Until then I'll continue using condition 2 because that's what I want to do. Everyone else is free to do as they choose.

 

[REAPER4206969]

Why does it “suit” you? Is it because you are confident in that technique? If so, why? Is it because that is how you were trained? Is it because you believe the weapon is poorly designed? You say “none of the above” so tell us why none of those apply to you.

 

[PT1911]

I am with reaper... there is nothing wrong with your choice, but saying you do something just because is not a valid or informative response to someone who is considering different carry options.

I am not trying to tell anyone what they should do or shouldn't do only provide my opinion based on the design of the gun in question and its timely use.

 

[David E]

However, I do not believe that manually decocking a pistol, under normal circumstances, is so fraught with peril as to be untenable. I do it all the time.

For me, that is not the real issue. I understand the technique for safely lowering that hammer.

But, as I asked previously (and no one responded to this point,) how fast can you COCK the hammer under time pressure? Can you do it 10 out of 10 ? 20 out of 20? One handed? Weak handed ?

Of course, most will reply that they'll have plenty of time, etc, etc, ad nauseum, to deftly cock the hammer at their leisure. I've heard the same arguments for Condition 3 carry.

I'm going to the range Monday, so I'll compare the time frames. I will do FIVE reps max.

Anyone else is invited to do the same so we can compare more times.

I will set up a steel IPSC target at 7 yds. Gun in hand. CED shot timer used. Starting at "low ready,"

Condition 2:

I will do two hand, strong hand only and weak hand only (thumb OFF hammer) I will accept ANY hit on the steel, since I'm going for maximum speed.

Condition 3:

I will only compare two handed on this one.

Condition 1:

Same hands, etc, as C-2

 

[PT1911]

there is no real practical way to cock the 1911 with one hand unless you have huge hands... you are required to put your off hand in a strange position to cock the gun, then aquire your target and defend yourself. there is no valid argument that any method is faster, more comfortable, or allows you to put rounds down range quicker than condition 1. draw, normal position depresses the safety, and you are ready to defend yourself within 1-3 seconds of recognizing the threat.

 

[REAPER4206969]

The important factor to consider with C2 is the weak grip necessary to thumb cock an M1911. It is very easy to drop it or be disarmed by your adversary.

 

[doubs43]

I am with reaper... there is nothing wrong with your choice, but saying you do something just because is not a valid or informative response to someone who is considering different carry options.

I don't consider saying that someone who uses condition 2 has a "Lack of confidence/training as well as ignorance of the pistols mechanics, or simply fear." to be a statement that encourages civil conversation. Obviously it disapproves of condition 2 but it's hardly an informative post.

Over 60 years of pistol shooting - 49 of them with the 1911 - has provided experience and habits that I'm comfortable using. There are several 1911's plus other pistols in my house. All have hammers and all are in condition 2. Condition 1 in the house makes little sense to me and when the grandchildren come to visit, the pistols all become condition 3 before they arrive as they don't have the strength to work the slides. (None are where they can easily get to them anyway.) Home invaders would have to come up a flight of stairs after kicking in the door so cocking the pistol isn't a problem.

When I carry a pistol in the car, it's either in the console or on the seat and in condition 2. I don't take a holster and cocking the hammer would take no more time than pulling the pistol from a holster. Sometimes I take a Makarov and in condition 2, the hammer will not contact the firing pin unless the trigger is all the way back. It can be fired double action as well.

Often, when I go to the range (2,3 or more times a week), I'm alone and there are wild dogs around and sometimes homeless people pass on the nearby railroad tracks. I keep a 1911 on the bench in condition 2. When I go downrange, I usually carry it in my belt. Even if I wear a holster, I use condition 2 because that's what I'm comfortable doing. Condition 1 is fine and I've carried that way as well as used it in competition but over the years I find I like condition 2 in most situations best.

I understand the advantage of condition 1 and those who choose to carry that way will not be criticized by me. Once one understands the three conditions, it's up to them to choose how they want to carry or keep the pistol. You can disagree with my choice but it's not necessary to disparage anyone. After all, it's still a personal choice and if you elect to use condition 3, that's fine with me.

 

[rbernie]

there is no real practical way to cock the 1911 with one hand unless you have huge hands... you are required to put your off hand in a strange position to cock the gun, then aquire your target and defend yourself.

Because you've never learned how doesn't mean that there isn't a way to do it that makes it works.

The important factor to consider with C2 is the weak grip necessary to thumb cock an M1911.

Don't thumb cock it with the strong-side hand.

As I tried to explain in post #36:

I draw with the right hand (strong side hand) as usual and cock the pistol with my left thumb as I slide my weak hand into a supporting position. It's really not hard, and it's the same motion that I use with my revolvers.

It works. I'm regularly about a quarter second slower with it than I am with a Condition 1 draw, but that's mostly due to the fact that I don't practice Condition 2 draw nearly as much as Condition 1. I doubt that I'll ever get equally fast, since this technique does require that I slide the weak hand up a bit further than normal during presentation and get it back down in time to complete the hand extension and get the front sight on target.

But it's very do-able.

I normally have the hammer cocked right about the time that the pistol is level with my sternum and as I'm presenting the muzzle towards the target. This two-handed presentation can easily be morphed into a one-handed shot by simply taking the weak hand and using it as a block while completing the presentation with the strong hand.

 

[REAPER4206969]

So now it is a two handed proposition? Why not just carry C3? The only advantage to your method is another cartridge.

 

[seeker_two]

The important factor to consider with C2 is the weak grip necessary to thumb cock an M1911. It is very easy to drop it or be disarmed by your adversary.

If your adversary is that close, you shouldn't be going for your gun...you won't have time. That's where the empty-hand skills will be more useful. When you have time and distance, draw.

 

[rbernie]

Why not just carry C3? The only advantage to your method is another cartridge.

And a significant time savings, and less to get wrong (misfeed, etc.).

Y'all clearly never grew up shooting revolvers, or thumb cocking with the offhand thumb would be second nature to ya.....

 

[Gryffydd]

I'm a civilian and god forbid i do not live in mortal fear every second of every day about a sudden attack where the fraction of a second needed to rack the slide is going to be life or death.

So you're anticipating a slow attack where you have plenty of warning? Sorry, but muggings and related activities happen everywhere, and they go down about the same way everywhere. They don't mug you nicely just because you're not in the hood at the moment.

 

[Carl]

What about condition zero? It's not as dangerous as people think. You still have two safeties. Grip safety and keeping the finger off the trigger. It would be no different than a glock or XD right?

 

[dmazur]

What about condition zero? It's not as dangerous as people think. You still have two safeties. Grip safety and keeping the finger off the trigger. It would be no different than a glock or XD right?

I have limited understanding of other platforms, but I believe both the Glock and XD have some kind of firing pin lock that's disengaged when the trigger is pulled.

You might argue that a Colt Series 80 has a similar firing pin block as the Glock or XD, in that the user has to pull the trigger to disable this safety. The original 1911 design has no firing pin safety, and comparing it to modern designs is difficult.

Yes there are safety mechanisms in place in addition to the thumb safety. However, there is considerable support for using the safeties that are available. The famous "shirt tail caught in trigger guard" is defeated by the thumb safety, and would present a possibility of a ND if the pistol was in Condition 0.

So the "1911 in Condition 0 is the same as a Glock" statement isn't quite correct, as most 1911's aren't Series 80, AFAIK.

 

[coltoriginal]

So you're anticipating a slow attack where you have plenty of warning? Sorry, but muggings and related activities happen everywhere, and they go down about the same way everywhere. They don't mug you nicely just because you're not in the hood at the moment.

Have you ever been mugged? and if so did you shoot him? I haven't been mugged and i don't carry a gun solely waiting for the opportunity to kill the spontaneous mugger. I'd rather give him my wallet than shoot him, to me killing is a last resort. If he's going to kill me it will likely be blindsided shooting/stabbing me and rob my corpse then i'm screwed anyway.

Have you ever drawn and fired on your mugger in the x# of seconds you clocked yourself at on the range? I haven't

Are you really truly at the ready 24/7 to draw and shoot-to-kill in a fraction of a second? I'm not, and i'd bet that in the moment very few are. Most that will are likely to do so recklessly

sorry i'm not as trigger-happy as you, perhaps that makes me the much feared liberal. But none of my points above disqualify me from the right to carry.



back to the original question now.
Have we agreed that once in c2 the gun is safe?
if we have agreed on that then this becomes an argument about whether or not decockers are necessary. I'm sure some of the CZ and beretta guys have something to say about that.

 

[Gryffydd]

Are you really truly at the ready 24/7 to draw and shoot-to-kill in a fraction of a second?

No, I'm not. That's why it makes sense that the one thing that can be ready 24/7 (my gun) should be.

sorry i'm not as trigger-happy as you,

How does recognizing the fact that if you ever need a gun you may very well need it QUICKLY make me trigger happy?

But none of my points above disqualify me from the right to carry.

Who on earth said anything about your right to carry? Where did that even come from!? All I did was probe into the unusual logic that says it's worth it to carry a gun, but not worth it to have the gun as ready as safely possible because you won't ever need it quickly.

perhaps that makes me the much feared liberal

Pulling random arguments that don't make any sense or have any relation to anything that's been said does more to make that case. And I don't think "feared" is precisely the right term, though I'm sure you'd like to think so.

 

[Philip Marlowe]

I too missed the news letter about decockers being 'liberal'...

Guess I'll chuck my HKs and Sig in the garbage.

That said - very interesting info on carry styles. Glad the OP made this thread...

 

[polekitty]

No, SOUTH SHORE T, IT WON'T!

No sir, South Shore T, it won't fire. Just releasing the hammer on a modern 1911 won't fire it. You have to also have the grip safety depressed at the same time. And I do agree the safest gun on the planet is a modern 1911, carried condition one, "cocked & locked." If that makes anyone nervous then go for something like a DAO pistol, maybe an FNH, Sig, Hk, Taurus, whatever. And in passing I would mention "snagging" the hammer on a 1911 won't fire it, but "snagging the trigger" on a Glock is really bad news!!

 

[tipoc]

No doubt about it condition one is not only a safe way to carry it's the fastest way to bring the gun into action and when I carry a 1911 for the purposes of self defense and in a proper rig, condition one is the way I carry.

But when hunting in rough country, and a 1911 is my sidearm, I often carry condition 2 in a rig that helps keep the dirt and grit out. The hammer down helps keep trash out. As my long gun is the primary weapon and there is no anticipation of immediate need of a handgun, Condition 2 works well. This is an old G.I. method, by the way.

I've also carried condition 2 while pocket carrying where a holster was unwise and in a belly band I tried for awhile where a C&L Detonics was not comfortable or safe as I saw it.

I've had to carry condition 2 in a paper sack in a shoulder bag and in a tool bag. I've slept with a gun in condition 2 in a sleeping bag where C&L was uncomfortable and made no sense that I could see. I've carried condition 2 in a paper bag in a briefcase.

If you live with 1911s long enough you get to see that condition 2 has it's uses. The gun was built to be carried 3 ways. Each has it's place.

tipoc

 

[ferretray]

The fact is that the more unnecessary screwing around you do (Lowering the hammer with a loaded chamber) the more likely an ND.
To ready: Insert mag, rack slide and engage thumb safety.
To make safe: release mag, disengage thumb safety (Keeping finger away from trigger) and rack slide.
Simple really.