So you guys always carry cocked and locked, or on and empty chamber with the hammer down? I just am trying to get a consensus, for my own behavior. And the half cocked is bad, because the hammer safty is not to be trusted, is that the danger. On the para, is there a difference in the hammer saftey when it's in the half cocked vs the hammer down on a round? I never had another 1911, other than the para, so after 12 years of having this gun, so I got out the owners instruction manual. Passive safties:Bla Bla, Inertia Firing Pin, Size and position of the firing pin, which is held to the rear by a spring, keep the pin from striking the cartridge primer unless the spring force and inertia of the firing pin are overcome by the blow of the hammer. Hammer Safty Stop: the hammer is designed with a flat shelf like surface which is there to prevent the hammer from falling forward and onto the firing inunintentionally by engaging the sear should there occur a primary sear notch failure. Firing Pin Lock: To minimize the risk of accidental discharge, that may be the result of the pistol being dropped or the muzzle recieving a blow, this safty device prevents the movement of the firing pin until the trigger is intentionally squeezed. I don't understand that if the passive saftey is supposed to stop the hammer from coming down on a round unless the trigger is pulled, how the way I was carrying it was wrong, or unsafe?
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Condition 3 carry solution???
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The normal mode of carrying an SA semi-automatic pistol is Condition 1, popularly known as cocked and locked (see photo of Springfield Armory M1911A1 above). Condition 1 (a term popularized by Colonel Jeff Cooper) refers to having the magazine full, a round chambered, the hammer fully cocked, and the thumb safety engaged or on, at least for right-handed users. For many single-action, semi-automatic pistols, this procedure works well only for right-handed users, as the thumb safety is located on the left side of pistol and is easily accessible only for those who are holding the pistol in the right hand.
On many SA semi-automatic pistols, there is also a hammer position known as "half-cocked.". Squeezing the trigger will not fire the gun when it is in the half-cocked position, and neither will dropping the gun in this state cause an accidental discharge. During WWII in the Pacific Theater, an unofficial and unapproved carry mode for the SA M1911 by left-handed US soldiers in combat was carrying the gun with the magazine full, a round chambered, the action in half-cocked position, and the thumb safety (accessible only to right-handed users) positioned in the off (or ready-to-fire) mode. The primary advantage of the half-cocked position versus the uncocked position in that particular scenario was added sound suppression, a secondary advantage being the avoidance of accidental discharges if the gun were accidentally dropped
On many SA semi-automatic pistols, there is also a hammer position known as "half-cocked.". Squeezing the trigger will not fire the gun when it is in the half-cocked position, and neither will dropping the gun in this state cause an accidental discharge. During WWII in the Pacific Theater, an unofficial and unapproved carry mode for the SA M1911 by left-handed US soldiers in combat was carrying the gun with the magazine full, a round chambered, the action in half-cocked position, and the thumb safety (accessible only to right-handed users) positioned in the off (or ready-to-fire) mode. The primary advantage of the half-cocked position versus the uncocked position in that particular scenario was added sound suppression, a secondary advantage being the avoidance of accidental discharges if the gun were accidentally dropped
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
I understand what your concern is, but lowering the hammer on a round is something that one must occasionally do any how isn't it.
Nope. Never. Not once. Not at all. For no reason. Bad!
If you feel uncomfortable fumbling for the gun with a round in the chamber, hammer back, safety on, then leave it on the nightstand with a full mag, EMPTY chamber, safety off -- hammer up or down doesn't much matter.
If you have time to react to a noise by waking up, getting your head on straight, and finding the gun, then you have time to rack the slide.
I can't imagine what would make you feel that you could more safely grope that hammer back on a live round with your sweaty clammy hands than to naturally sweep the safety off as you obtain your grip.
As has been now pointed out 3,756,857,211 times on gun boards, books, magazines, training references, etc., etc. SA auto pistols should be carried (or in this case grounded at the ready) either cocked-and-locked, or chamber empty.
The crazy "Condition 2" suggestions are like Elvis sightings...they don't make any sense but people just won't stop talking about it!
-Sam
In discussing the OP question on the Cylinder & Slide Conversion there seems to be some confusion with the Conditions of Readiness as defined by Jeff Cooper to apply to single-action, manual safety, semi-auto, pistols; such as the M1911 or Hi-Power.
* Condition Zero: Loaded magazine in place, a round chambered, hammer cocked, safety off
* Condition One: Loaded magazine in place, a round chambered, hammer cocked, safety on
* Condition Two: Loaded magazine in place, a round chambered, hammer down
* Condition Three: Loaded magazine in place, chamber empty
* Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine
Yes, Always
No, Never
I wonder what you're thinking of that would require you to lower the hammer on a live round? Give us an example of when this would be required. You may be thinking of some scenario I am not aware of.
I have owned and carried 1911 type pistols for over 45 years and can not ever remember lowering the hammer on a live round.
A dangerous procedure is not "less dangerous" if you don't do it very often and lowering a hammer on a live round is inherently dangerous.
gym, the Left Handed, Pacific Theater anecdote is interesting - where did you learn of it? The anecdote does not, however, prove anything as to the validity of carrying a 1911 on half-cock. You yourself say in the story the mode was "unofficial and unapproved". The act of pressing the trigger and easing the hammer down manually is a ND waiting to happen. NDs were the reason the "load/unload sand barrels were instituted by the military.
* Condition Zero: Loaded magazine in place, a round chambered, hammer cocked, safety off
* Condition One: Loaded magazine in place, a round chambered, hammer cocked, safety on
* Condition Two: Loaded magazine in place, a round chambered, hammer down
* Condition Three: Loaded magazine in place, chamber empty
* Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine
gym said:So you guys always carry cocked and locked...
Yes, Always
gym said:or on and empty chamber with the hammer down?
No, Never
gym said:...lowering the hammer on a round is something that one must occasionally do any how isn't it.
I wonder what you're thinking of that would require you to lower the hammer on a live round? Give us an example of when this would be required. You may be thinking of some scenario I am not aware of.
I have owned and carried 1911 type pistols for over 45 years and can not ever remember lowering the hammer on a live round.
gym said:I wouldn't do it on a daily or weekly basis, but two or three times a year seems safe to me
A dangerous procedure is not "less dangerous" if you don't do it very often and lowering a hammer on a live round is inherently dangerous.
gym, the Left Handed, Pacific Theater anecdote is interesting - where did you learn of it? The anecdote does not, however, prove anything as to the validity of carrying a 1911 on half-cock. You yourself say in the story the mode was "unofficial and unapproved". The act of pressing the trigger and easing the hammer down manually is a ND waiting to happen. NDs were the reason the "load/unload sand barrels were instituted by the military.
btucker1947
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Condition 3 carry Solution
When you got a simple well functioning weapon , why go to the unknown to change something. It might not work right, and it might not be dependable anymore.:banghead:
When you got a simple well functioning weapon , why go to the unknown to change something. It might not work right, and it might not be dependable anymore.:banghead:
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Squeezing...and neither will dropping the gun in this state cause an accidental discharge.
Of the three hammer positions with a loaded chamber...half-cocked is not only the most likely to cause an unintentional discharge...it's also the most likely to damage the pistol's sear if dropped onto the hammer. It can also damage a true, captive half-cock notch itself and render it inoperable.
The half-cock is not...nor was it ever intended to be a safe carry position. Its purpose...its SOLE purpose...is arresting the hammer should the hammer hooks fail....or if the hammer should follow the slide during a reload...or if it gets loose during thumb-cocking.
The US Military never advocated carrying the gun with a chambered round...whenther cocked and locked or hammer down...unless action requiring the use of the pistol was anticipated and/or iminent. Once the need for a pistol at the ready had passed, the user was instructed to clear the chamber and return the pistol to condition three.
Unofficial and unapproved carry mode for the SA M1911 by left-handed US soldiers in combat was carrying the gun with the magazine full, a round chambered, the action in half-cocked position, and the thumb safety (accessible only to right-handed users) positioned in the off (or ready-to-fire) mode. The primary advantage of the half-cocked position versus the uncocked position in that particular scenario was added sound suppression, a secondary advantage being the avoidance of accidental discharges if the gun were accidentally dropped. I got this from the article that explained the various ways of carrying a 1911, so in this case, the hammer would have to be, decocked, thus leaving the hammer down, as it says in the article, and the para- ordinance manual. I looked at the weapon after I posted, unloaded of course, and unless something were to malfunction ,big time, it appears safe.I will attemt to find the entire article, and re post it from the beginning. Is it possible that when the cocked and locked practice came to bieng, that the more modern handguns with 3 passive safties were not in existance yet. I remember my uncle telling me the same thing, but that was 30 yrs ago. I am goiing to try and see if the gun will even fire from the half cocked position next time I go to the range. Meanwhile I will research more sources, what some of you say is true on some 1911's, but I think the mechanisms on the newer guns may vary.As some of you think it's ok to have the hammer on a live round as Rebel mentioned, and the article said in half cocked was also safe. I may find that there is no clear answer. And I realise you don't have to drop the hammer on the live round, as I mentioned, using the thumb techniqe, but I feel at ease doing it that way. I also agree with someone who mentioned that the safty had moved to the off position several times with his weapon from everyday movement. Ok I also found this,When the hammer is pulled back just a few millimeters it "half cocks" and pulling the trigger will not fire the gun [on genuine mil-spec G.I. pistols]. I imagine this is an unsafe and not a recommended safety position. The reason I bring it up however is that it was a commonly used position especially by left-handers in WWII. Ok after much research I have decided that this is like asking what ice cream people prefer, I have seen answers from it's ok, to never do that, all from respected sources, The answers were from about 50 handgun sites, not forums, so it appears that it's a personal choice, bieng less accepted for carry than condition 1, which a poll I looked at had 50% of 1911 SA owners using condition 1. So I have my answer, although not as widely uase, it still is used by some folks, but not as many as 1.
gym said:<<I got this from the article that explained the various ways of carrying a 1911, so in this case, the hammer would have to be, decocked, thus leaving the hammer down, as it says in the article, and the para- ordinance manual.>>
If you can find that article and when/where it was published I would appreciate it if you could post it or send it to me. I have read or tried to read everything I can find on the 1911 for many years and I am very interested in this.
gym said:<<Is it possible that when the cocked and locked practice came to bieng, that the more modern handguns with 3 passive safties were not in existance yet. I remember my uncle telling me the same thing, but that was 30 yrs ago.>>
It is my understanding from my reading that the cocked and locked practise was how John M. Browning advocated that the pistol be carried - it is not a more recent innovation.
gym said:<<I am goiing to try and see if the gun will even fire from the half cocked position next time I go to the range. Meanwhile I will research more sources, what some of you say is true on some 1911's, but I think the mechanisms on the newer guns may vary.>>
The major variation on 1911 pistol sears - and that is what we are supposed to be discussing is 1911s - is that the original sear had a "half cock hook" that captured the hammer and the hammer would not drop when the trigger is pulled. Newer versions of the 1911 have a "half cock shelf" on the sear that prevents the hammer from contacting the firing pin if the trigger is not holding the sear back. On these newer versions, on half cock, the hammer will drop when the trigger is pulled. The firing pin should not have enough inertia to fire when this occurs.
gym said:<<As some of you think it's ok to have the hammer on a live round as Rebel mentioned, and the article said in half cocked was also safe. I may find that there is no clear answer.>>
Is the article you mention here the "Left Handed WWII Pacific Theater" story? And I believe your "clear answer" is in JMB's original intent AND in the owner's manuals of the manufacturers of 1911 pistols.
gym said:<<And I realise you don't have to drop the hammer on the live round, as I mentioned, using the thumb techniqe, but I feel at ease doing it that way.>>
OK, at least I am not missing something here.
gym said:<<I also agree with someone who mentioned that the safty had moved to the off position several times with his weapon from everyday movement.>>
On the 1911 the grip safety will not allow the trigger to move back enough to disengage the the sear and dropping the hammer. If somehow the thumb safety had been moved to the off position, the "half cock hook/shelf" is designed to intercept the hammer and prevent it from contacting the firing pin.
gym said:<<Ok I also found this,When the hammer is pulled back just a few millimeters it "half cocks" and pulling the trigger will not fire the gun [on genuine mil-spec G.I. pistols]. I imagine this is an unsafe and not a recommended safety position. The reason I bring it up however is that it was a commonly used position especially by left-handers in WWII.>>
This is what some of us are trying to tell you - that it is an unsafe and not recommended safety position. And I do question the "commonly used".
gym said:<<Ok after much research I have decided that this is like asking what ice cream people prefer, I have seen answers from it's ok, to never do that, all from respected sources, The answers were from about 50 handgun sites, not forums, so it appears that it's a personal choice, bieng less accepted for carry than condition 1, which a poll I looked at had 50% of 1911 SA owners using condition 1. So I have my answer, although not as widely uase, it still is used by some folks, but not as many as 1.>>
In your research, how many manufacturers of the 1911 type pistol recommended that the pistol be carried at "half cock"? I think you found/will find that no manufacturer does this. Not only is it a hazard to lower the hammer to "half cock" the fact that the sear rides in the "half cock hook/shelf" can damage or change the very part of the sear that is crucial to a safe and acceptable trigger pull. Continued practice of carrying "half cocked" can damage the sear to the extent that the trigger pull becomes unsafe or unusable.
I do not recall ever seeing "half cock carry" being recommended by a reliable source and I would appreciate it if you could point out some.
There are many different ways a 1911 can be carried - from Condition 0 to Condition 4 - But "Half Cock" is not one of them. This then goes back to the OP's question on the "conversion" and whether or not it is desireable.
Vern Humphrey
Member
A bad idea, poorly executed.Condition 3 carry solution???
Vern Humphrey
Member
Regarding the use of half-cock on the M1911. I had a friend who told me a story. His company had found a tunnel, and one of the troops volunteered to check it out, "If you'll lend me your .45, Sir."
When the kid came out of the tunnel, he gave the .45 back, "And he must have forgot to put it on half-cock, because when I slung my M16, the butt hit the hammer and it shot my boot-heel off."
When I told -- and showed -- him what actually happened, and then explained that for the rest of his tour he had carried that gun with on half-cock with the half-cock notch broken, he actually turned pale.
When the kid came out of the tunnel, he gave the .45 back, "And he must have forgot to put it on half-cock, because when I slung my M16, the butt hit the hammer and it shot my boot-heel off."
When I told -- and showed -- him what actually happened, and then explained that for the rest of his tour he had carried that gun with on half-cock with the half-cock notch broken, he actually turned pale.
Wow. As the OP of this thread I would have never dreamed it would have disolved into this discussion. A simple question was asked if anyone had any exerience with the SFS.
The condition of carry is the carriers choice. Personally I believe a 1911 cocked and locked is a safer firearm that any DAO or SA/DA with just a thumb safety.
It is the concept of having the hammer down and just flipping off the safety to cock a 1911 the pricked my curiousity. I aint spendin 180 bucks to make and already safe pistol "safer".
The condition of carry is the carriers choice. Personally I believe a 1911 cocked and locked is a safer firearm that any DAO or SA/DA with just a thumb safety.
It is the concept of having the hammer down and just flipping off the safety to cock a 1911 the pricked my curiousity. I aint spendin 180 bucks to make and already safe pistol "safer".
Thanks for the discussion, the pages I cut and pasted from, are a result of Googling things like Cocked and locked, and the different conditions, 1 tru 4, and it took several hours of reading, I say this for AZ Rebel, I would have to spend the better part of a day to find most of the stuff I found. But the 3 lines I took out of the P-13 manuel, is exactlly that, I just copied it from my p13 manual, that little sucker they give you with the gun. Thanks for the discussion guys.
btucker1947
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Condition 3 carry Solution
If it aint broke , don't fix it!
Cocked & Locked is the way mine is except at night I have safety off with full magazine, nothing in chamber.
My reason for this LOOL is the damn Cat , eats about 5 lbs of deli-cat a day i think. If it gets pawing at that gun after a bug or somthing . &%%^&& Cat!
If it aint broke , don't fix it!
Cocked & Locked is the way mine is except at night I have safety off with full magazine, nothing in chamber.
My reason for this LOOL is the damn Cat , eats about 5 lbs of deli-cat a day i think. If it gets pawing at that gun after a bug or somthing . &%%^&& Cat!
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Gym - its unfortunate that you cannot give the references you refer to as I would have liked to read them also.
The Para Ordnance P13 Manual makes the statement as you quoted:
Note that they do not call it a "half cock position". Its ONLY function is to catch the hammer in case of primary sear failure.
The manual for "civilian" owners does not suggest carry modes at all.
However from the Manual for the Colt Government Model - Page 7:
"8. NEVER PLACE OR ALLOW THE HAMMER TO REMAIN IN THE HALF-COCK NOTCH. THIS IS NOT A SAFE CARRYING POSITION. ANY EFFORT TO ENGAGE THE HAMMER IN THE HALF-COCK NOTCH MAY RESULT IN THE HAMMER PERCHING ON THE LIP OF THE HALF-COCK NOTCH. THIS IS EXTREMELY HAZARDOUS. IF THE HAMMER IS IN THIS CONDITION IT COULD FALL FORWARD AND DISCHARGE THE PISTOL, THEREBY RISKING INJURY, DEATH OR DAMAGE TO PROPERTY."
Sorry, but this is not like choosing icecream. Half-cock is an unacceptable mode of carry.
The Para Ordnance P13 Manual makes the statement as you quoted:
Note that they do not call it a "half cock position". Its ONLY function is to catch the hammer in case of primary sear failure.
The manual for "civilian" owners does not suggest carry modes at all.
However from the Manual for the Colt Government Model - Page 7:
"8. NEVER PLACE OR ALLOW THE HAMMER TO REMAIN IN THE HALF-COCK NOTCH. THIS IS NOT A SAFE CARRYING POSITION. ANY EFFORT TO ENGAGE THE HAMMER IN THE HALF-COCK NOTCH MAY RESULT IN THE HAMMER PERCHING ON THE LIP OF THE HALF-COCK NOTCH. THIS IS EXTREMELY HAZARDOUS. IF THE HAMMER IS IN THIS CONDITION IT COULD FALL FORWARD AND DISCHARGE THE PISTOL, THEREBY RISKING INJURY, DEATH OR DAMAGE TO PROPERTY."
Sorry, but this is not like choosing icecream. Half-cock is an unacceptable mode of carry.
aguyindallas
Member
The safety is bewteen my ears. To me carrying a gun that is not ready to fire with ANY other action than flicking a safety and pulling the trigger is by far more dangerous than carrying a gun that is not ready to go.
Most of the time, folks trying to not carry a loaded/ready gun really just need time to get a little more comfortable. Walk around for a few days with your 1911 cocked and locked and see how you feel. At the end of the day, you will see the safety is still on and you havent blown a hole in your leg either.d
Same argument for folks not comfortable carrying a loaded Glock, M&P, XD etc...
Most of the time, folks trying to not carry a loaded/ready gun really just need time to get a little more comfortable. Walk around for a few days with your 1911 cocked and locked and see how you feel. At the end of the day, you will see the safety is still on and you havent blown a hole in your leg either.d
Same argument for folks not comfortable carrying a loaded Glock, M&P, XD etc...
Enlightened Rogue
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Posts: 433 I carry my SA 1911A1 aLOT and have dropped the sucker numerous times doing this and that and I'm here talkin' to you'uns. To quote Jeff Cooper in his article 'The Yankee Fist", 'But probably the single greatest problem of the recognition of the 1911 pistol was the unsound but widely-held belief that while a double action revolver can be carried on the person, fully loaded and ready to fire, without activating it, the self-loader was "unsafe" if carried fully loaded with a round in the chamber. It is hard to trace the origin of this belief since any careful study of the matter reveals it to be false. The pistol will not go off by itself. It's shooter must press its trigger. Therefore, while the shooter may be unsafe, the weapon itself cannot be...'
as ever,
Dr. X
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The Golden Rule of History: Those With the Weapons Make the Rules!
Took that from another forum, I'm a day trader and am used to doing research, I run two machines at once, so when I have time I'll find you the research you asked for, but in the meantime I googled condition 2 again and get many different opinions, the majority agree with your assement, but my PARA, on half cocked, can't be lowered by pressing the trigger, so I either have to rack it, to empty the chamber, or fire it. I don't want to drop it on the tile floor, just to see if it goes off, but any revolver has the same possibility of going off if you feel the way about leaving the hammer down. I think we talked this one about as far as I care to, thanks again
Survivaholic #: 30
Dr. X is offline
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Transylvania
Posts: 433 I carry my SA 1911A1 aLOT and have dropped the sucker numerous times doing this and that and I'm here talkin' to you'uns. To quote Jeff Cooper in his article 'The Yankee Fist", 'But probably the single greatest problem of the recognition of the 1911 pistol was the unsound but widely-held belief that while a double action revolver can be carried on the person, fully loaded and ready to fire, without activating it, the self-loader was "unsafe" if carried fully loaded with a round in the chamber. It is hard to trace the origin of this belief since any careful study of the matter reveals it to be false. The pistol will not go off by itself. It's shooter must press its trigger. Therefore, while the shooter may be unsafe, the weapon itself cannot be...'
as ever,
Dr. X
__________________
The Golden Rule of History: Those With the Weapons Make the Rules!
Took that from another forum, I'm a day trader and am used to doing research, I run two machines at once, so when I have time I'll find you the research you asked for, but in the meantime I googled condition 2 again and get many different opinions, the majority agree with your assement, but my PARA, on half cocked, can't be lowered by pressing the trigger, so I either have to rack it, to empty the chamber, or fire it. I don't want to drop it on the tile floor, just to see if it goes off, but any revolver has the same possibility of going off if you feel the way about leaving the hammer down. I think we talked this one about as far as I care to, thanks again
gym said:I think we talked this one about as far as I care to
Yes, that's probably true. The written advise from the original manufacturer of the design is quite definitive.
btucker1947
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no, I wouldn't change my 1911-A ' it's good the way it is
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