Learning the 1911

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jl1966

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Okay, so I bought a 1911:D. Well, I am a Glock type of guy. Yeah I know,:barf:, well, humor me. I am a fairly experienced shooter, PPC, IDPA, GSSF, as well as profesional training. All with Glocks. The thing is, I am trying to learn the same skills that I have cultivated with that platform, except with the 1911. My first problem is, when drawing from the holster with the Glock, the firing grip is achieved early in the draw stroke and maintained throughout the subsequent drill, match stage, whatever. With the 1911, the draw stroke is begun, the support hand brought into play, the safety released, and then the firing grip achieved. Obviously, you do not want to release the safety too early in the presentation, until the piece is oriented towards the target. So, how do you guys do it? I realize it is somewhat difficult to deconstruct something as second nature as a learned and trained draw stroke, but any pointers will be appreciated. I don't plan for this gun to be a primary or carry gun, but I would like to become somewhat proficient in its use.
 
When my hand reaches for my holstered 1911, my thumb lands on the thumb safety. As I draw the pistol, the thumb simply drops the safety and stays on the safety through firing.

Once you learn to find the safety I don't think you will need to change your grip. It will be just as natural as drawing your Glock.
 
I have the opposite problem. I'm transitioning from carrying a 1911 to a glock.

I am not a competitive shooter, so don't take my advice above others.

I drew mine slowly since drawing a 1911 seems like second nature to me. If drawing to presentation, I flick the safety just before my support hand touches it. When drawing to low and ready, I leave the safety engaged and do not disengage until I move to presentation. I have had zero combat experience nor any formal tactical training, so I would suspect my technique may be wrong.

I am still nervous with the glock. I typically ride the safety on a 1911 when holstering, and I perform checks to make sure it is engaged. Since there is no safety on the glock where my muscle memory thinks there is one...I suspect my thumb is going to wear a smooth area in the frame from constant sweeping :)

Edit:: My biggest problem was lowering the front sight at presentation with the glock. Any pointers would be appreciated. My first practice session was disastrous. I got the hang of the glock and was drawing with the front sight on target by the end of it. But after 500 rounds through the glock, then switching back to my 1911 immediately I created a huge mishap. I immediately drew, inadvertently double tapped and locked the slide due to my thumb hitting the slide stop. “Holy crap” I thought. Tap, rack, bang-bang and lock again. It happened that time, but not since. I also need to get some better sights, that whole “ball in a cup” thing doesn’t work as well for me.
 
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i follow a slightly different presentation as i come from a LE background and it is based on your drawing the gun and pointing it more often than you'll be actually shooting it. it is just as fast, much safer and is what is commonly used in competition.

you should always obtain the master grip while the gun is in the holster. with a 1911, just position you thumb above the thumb safety. after you hands come together at your chest and you start your pushout, you'll have plenty of time to press down on the thumb safety for your final grip...you need to keep your thumb on the safety dueing your string of fire. you gain nothing in speed by taking off the thumb safety before your muzzle is pointed at your target.

ForumSurfer - bring your gun up higher at the beginning of you presentation so you can see over your sights. put the top of your front sight on target. as you extend you arms the rear sight will rise up so you can align them.

you press back on the trigger as your arms extend so that the trigger breaks as you reach, or just before, extension.
 
Forumsurfer,
Glocks sit low in the hand, and have no protruding levers, or the like. I have the same result as you when I try a gun with a protruding slide stop or decocker, or safety. I have inadvertantly engaged the safety several times on this 1911 since I got it. I had a Sig that I had the same problem with. Sold that one, wasn't worth the effort to train on that gun.
 
When my hand reaches for my holstered 1911, my thumb lands on the thumb safety. As I draw the pistol, the thumb simply drops the safety and stays on the safety through firing.

Same. The safety is disengaged while brining the pistol up. However, my finger is off the trigger until I am on target.
 
I use the same method as 9mmepiphany.

That's what I was taught in a tactile handgun class.
 
There is absolutely NO reason to ever take off the safety prior to the hands coming together.

If you take the safety off before the gun is out of the holster, :eek: eventually, they're going to nickname you
'Half-Assed'.............
 
There is absolutely NO reason to ever take off the safety prior to the hands coming together.
That's a pretty emphatic NO answer you have there.

Aren't there any possible reasons to do so?

1. Fending off an attacker with your weak hand.
2. Your weak hand has been injured/or you don't have one.
3. Holding/protecting a loved one.
4. Using your off hand for balance behind cover.
5. Etc.

I would think it is possible there could be some reason to remove the safety before the hands come together.
 
There is absolutely NO reason to ever take off the safety prior to the hands coming together.
Just as a knife must be ready to cut and cutting edge respected as soon as it clears the sheath, I believe a DEFENSIVE pistol drawn in response to a THREAT must be ready to fire and trigger respected as soon as it clears the holster. As others already posted, you may not be able to form a two handed grip if the threat is near (From my defensive training, immediate threat time frame of less than one second). You may only have enough time to perform a single hand hip shooting instead of instinctive/point/sighted shooting with one/two hands.

Jeff Cooper drops the safety on his 1911 with his right thumb after the pistol clears the holster before engaging a two handed grip at 2:30 mark on this video. At 2:50, he drops the safety to shoot with one hand (nice discussion and demonstration of trigger release too so not to force/push your trigger finger and cause flyers).

You fight like you train - practice so you are prepared to respond to any threats.
 
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When my hand reaches for my holstered 1911, my thumb lands on the thumb safety. As I draw the pistol, the thumb simply drops the safety and stays on the safety through firing.

Same here as well. I carried my 1911's for years before getting into LE. And as I fire, my thumbs rest on the "downed" thumb safety in the normal (Thumb over thumb) presentation. When I first got into LE, we had the S&W SW99's (no thumb safety) and because of that muscle memory of sitting my thumbs on top of the thumb safety, I instinctively rested the tips of my thumbs on the slide catch, and constantly battled with the slide not coming to lock back on an empty mag.

So, after many push ups later, and a little practice, I was able to switch my thinking between guns...now we have the M&P's, and luckily the slide release is just far enough forward, I don't have that problem anymore.

All that to say, safety comes off once the draw process has begun...and yes, the finger is off trigger until "on target".
 
in the self defense situations i have been forced into, when i had a handgun with a safety, i thumbed off the safety before the weapon was even clear of the holster, thumb break strap, drop safety, during draw as soon as the front sight began to pick up any form of target, finger on the trigger, begin to tighten as the front site comes up to center of mass the trigger is breaking, muzzle flash incoming, pull out of recoil, 2nd round downrange. worked for me, things could be different in the classroom though. it really happens fast.
 
I offer this from Bruce Gray who besides being God's Own Gunsmith (Michael Bane) is a USPSA and IDPA Grand Master, working LEO and one of the most knowledgeable shooting instructors I've ever trained/taught with. it is a bit long, but well thought out and well worth reading

I'd respectfully like to offer an alternative opinion to those who would advocate for releasing the thumb safety at any point in the presentation prior to the pistol's bore coming level with the intended target.

Sweeping off the safety early in the draw was a technique taught back in the 70's by some of the early luminaries of practical shooting. I believe, from having known and shot with many of these folks, that their reasoning was that the trigger finger was the only safety that matters, and that the finger doesn't enter the trigger guard and apply pressure to the trigger unless and until the conscious decision to engage and fire has been made. That sounds reasonable.

Long experience has exposed some problems with this concept and it's application stemming from the way people actually do things under stress. Watching many highly trained people, including myself and others from the old "Modern Technique" school, have ND's and even injure themselves whilst performing a speed rock or time-pressure draw got me and others of my era thinking about this subject, and we modified the doctrine regarding when it's acceptable to release the safety as a result or our experience.

The subconscious sometimes doesn't do a very perfect job of timing complex actions in a sequential manner once the stress level increases and the conscious mind takes control and / or tells it to speed the entire process up. That is a core reason why conscious intrusions can and do negate and degrade the performance of the subconsciously-directed routines we work so hard to master in training.

That is particularly true when these actions are not directly trained into a matrix that depends upon one thing being done before the next one is permissable or possible.

Let me repeat this: That is particularly true when these actions are not directly trained into a matrix that depends upon one thing being done before the next one is permissable or possible.

(As an aside, we need to work even harder to learn to keep the conscious mind out of our performance; this is exceedingly difficult for many people who's ego invest them heavily in results and appearnaces, which is why we strive to simplify everything we do to run the gun. Lots of folks can shoot like gods and perform highly complex gunhandling skills on the practice range...until they are being watched or the results really count for something.)

Jerking the trigger and anticipating recoil is a classic example of a conscious intrusion (grabbing at the trigger when the sights look right, or jerking the trigger simply to "shoot fast") that overrides our better training with negative results.

Well, we see similar failures of technique when we speed our students up past their perceived comfort zones. Ergo, a modest takeup of trigger slack on the drive towards the target can morph into contacting the trigger before the hands come together, or even firing the pistol as it is being drawn. "Not me, I'm trained too well" some will say say.

I must counter that my observations of students and competitors over the years suggests that once we give permission for the trigger to be engaged through a conscious decision to fire, it will be engaged, and earlier than we might expect or require for safety. The logical brake on that tendency is to program the a series of actions, mediated by and directed in response to appropriate decisions, that must take place before the trigger is fair game.

Now, how does this relate to the release of a manual thumb safety?

In the case of a 1911 or P-35, we can train the release of the manual safety to take place only when it's safe to do so in sequence with other actions prompted by clear decisions, and not just because we have made a conscious decision to fire right from the holster (or more correctly for many shooters, a default to fire unless we decide not to).

Nor do we want to disengage the safety every time we draw the pistol for any reason and with any intent. Indeed, firing the pistol from the draw repetitively and exclusively in practice is perhaps not the best idea for folks who carry for self-defense, to say the least. If we are programmed to fire the thing every time we draw it quickly under a little stress...you get the idea.

Which leads us to the current doctrine:

When drawing the pistol with the intent to fire from a two-handed platform, the safety MAY come off only when the hands come together, and as the final act of achieving the full firing grip as the master thumb locks down onto the top of the support thumb.

This act of disengaging the safety as we lock the firing grip at high ready does a lot for our consistency, but most important it is the key that we train our minds to recognize and follow with the presentation to the target, trigger takeup and firing of the shot upon seeing what we need to see to make that shot.

When firing from retention or some variation of the "speed rock", we train to release the safety only when the master grip has leveled the pistol to the target AND the conscious decision to fire has been made and confirmed throughout the draw. If the threat changes, so does the response, and the safety is reapplied if it was disengaged at all.

Crucial to all of this: In each case of a draw leading to a presentation and a shot, the trigger is engaged only after the conscious decision to fire has been made and confirmed, and only after the safety has been released IN RESPONSE TO THAT DECISION. The safety isn't disengaged simply upon the ordinary and bloodless decision to remove the pistol from it's holster, nor even when bringing the pistol to high ready in response to a potential but unrealized threat.

(I cite at least one study, related to me recently, by the Force Science Institute in which operators put through stressful shoot / no-shoot building search sim scenarios would frequently and repetitively touch their triggers during the excercise, despite their training and conscious recollections of not having done so.)

The sweeping off of the safety requires two conditions to obtain (whether in self-defense or on the range): First, that there is a defined and recognized threat that may prompt immediate action in defense (please see above); and second, that the potential threat is safely available to cover with the muzzle.

The trigger only becomes fair game after the safety is released, and only once a final, third condition obtains: that the conscious decision to fire has been made.

If we draw to a high ready in response to a perceived threat that does not then require lethal force, we are all safer for leaving the safety applied.

If that decision to fire is made after we come to high ready, we are at no disadvantage whatsoever if we start with the pistol on "safe" before we are required to engage to save our skin. (On or off "safe", there is no significant difference in decision-to-shot times from a high ready.)

If that decision to fire is part of a reaction compelled by clear circumstances before we draw in self-defense, of course we're in deep **** and by God we'd better be right and we'd better be sure in our gun handling actions if we are to prevail.

We all have heard the reasoned admonition not to draw unless you intend to fire, but morality and reality conspire on our behalf to make us think about this from a really honest and practical point of view: Cops and armed citizens both cover potential threats at gunpoint far more frequently than they blast away at them.

The NRA reckons citizens use firearms for righteous self-defense many, many thousands of times each year, but actual shooting fights between citizens and bad guys are so rare as to be nearly statistical non-events.

I offer this in the hope that everyone will be safer and more certain both in training and when it counts. Thank you for reading!
 
jl1966,
I am offering a different suggestion. Recommend practicing your presentations strong hand only until they are smooth. The safety should come off as the pistol comes level.

The idea of leaving the safety on does not make much sense to me. Most modern pistols do not have safeties and none the the DA or SA revolvers that I have used have safety levers.

If after you draw and there is no immediate threat, then apply the safety. When investigating a potential threat speed of draw is not needed and in many cases the pistol in not even in a holster. Again leave the safety on with your thumb riding on it. Your off hand might be needed for operating a light or a phone.
 
So, for a soldier out of rifle ammo and forced to draw the M9 pistol, when does the safety come off?

My guess, as soon as a threat is identified or suspected. For SD/HD situation in the town I live with frequent robberies and home invasions, safety comes off if I have the concern to even reach for one of my pistols. Of course, my choice are often G22/G27 with no manual safety.
 
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