Carrying a 1911 cocked and NOT locked?

[Tallball]

"Whoever dreamed up "multitasking" never handled guns or power tools."

Amen! I lost a little piece of finger once when I got distracted while using a power tool.

 

[JRH6856]

Even if I carried it unlocked...every time I drew, my thumb would probably go for the safety anyways.
Its the easiest thing to make a habit of. You always keep it locked, and then thats one less thing that will have to cross your mind...if push ever comes to shove.

I have carried a 1911, BHP or Llama IIIa off and on since 1970. All 3 have thumb safeties. I recently added a Rem R51 and Ruger LCP to the mix. Muscle memory is strong. My thumb automatically tries to wipe the nonexistent thumb safety off on the LCP and R51 as I acquire the target. It is part of the firing sequence which I go through, safety or no safety. I even find my thumb "wiping" when I shoot revolvers.

Muscle memory.

 

[Drail]

Thumbs are good. I shot IPSC for so long I try to wipe off the "safety" every time I draw a S&W revolver.

 

[shiftyer1]

The grip safety had nothing at all to do with that.

What you are saying is, you took the thumb safety off and pulled the trigger before you were ready.

rc

Let me be more clear, yes something did pull the trigger.....not sure what did it. At the time the spring had little tension allowing the safety to depress depending on the angle the gun was held. So without the thumb safety my 1911 was safetyless.....hope that makes more sense.

 

[ljnowell]

With some of the above logic it would be perfectly fine to carry a pistol with a 12 oz trigger and no safety.



I suppose it would be in a perfect world. But it isn't one and you won't find me with a 1911 and no safety on stuck in my belt.



Isn't concealed carry all about not getting shot? Wouldn't it be wiser to carry a gun that you won't shoot yourself with because it offers no real disadvantage in the inordinately small chance you need to pull it in self defense?



Sure it's a training issue. But I'd wage a lapse in your "training" is much more likely than the need to pull your weapon. Risk management should be the focus.





HB

I would be willing to bet that in the last thirty years way more people have shot themselves accidentally with Glocks and other pistols that most here feel are perfectly safe being carried without an external safety.

 

[seeker_two]

I have carried a 1911, BHP or Llama IIIa off and on since 1970. All 3 have thumb safeties. I recently added a Rem R51 and Ruger LCP to the mix. Muscle memory is strong. My thumb automatically tries to wipe the nonexistent thumb safety off on the LCP and R51 as I acquire the target. It is part of the firing sequence which I go through, safety or no safety. I even find my thumb "wiping" when I shoot revolvers.

Muscle memory.

Sorry to chase a rabbit here.......but where did you find a functional R51?......

 

[Confederate]

I would never carry an auto 1911 auto pistol cocked and not locked. BUT...I would also never carry a cocked Glock, nor would I carry my 5906 Smith cocked (there is no lock, just a long take up). Of all these the safest in my opinion would be the last -- a S&W 2nd/3rd gen pistol cocked and ready to shoot. But that doesn't mean I'd carry it that way. It's just that the Glock has very little take up before it goes bang! I've said it before, but putting a safety on a trigger is like putting a brake on an accelerator. That's why I consider Glocks to be unsafe at any speed. In a gun retention dispute, both parties would be in extreme danger.

With my 5906, I can cock it and pull the trigger all day without tripping it. Can't do that with a Glock!

 

[JRH6856]

Sorry to chase a rabbit here.......but where did you find a functional R51?......

It was in a green box with a big, white R.

I got one that works. Other than the tight chamber with no throat, which limits the ammo I can use, I really have no complaints. With the right ammo, I have had no failures.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Re #57

Those Smiths had some good features. I'm not sure why they discontinued them but the prices are already starting north. I would have one but I'm not sure there will be parts available in the future. Damn shame.

 

[Uglyducky]

I agree with others, if you carry a 1911 it should be in condition "0" cocked AND locked and all that you train with.

 

[JTQ]

...if you carry a 1911 it should be in condition "0" cocked AND locked and all that you train with.

I suspect this is a typo. You most likely meant Condition 1

 

[HB]

I would be willing to bet that in the last thirty years way more people have shot themselves accidentally with Glocks and other pistols that most here feel are perfectly safe being carried without an external safety.

I agreed, and that's why I carry a double action revolver. I guess in summary carry what you feel comfortable with but I don't want to be near anybody with a 1911 and no safety on stuck in their pants.


HB

 

[45_auto]

I don't want to be near anybody with a 1911 and no safety on stuck in their pants.

Without checking their pants, how do you know that everyone around you is not carrying a concealed 1911 with the thumb safety off? Might be the style now in Missouri. Do you expect that they all have something in their pants capable of depressing the grip safety and pulling the trigger at the same time?

 

[tipoc]

A person can safely carry a cocked and unlocked 1911 with the thumb safety disengaged in a holster all day. Or all week for that matter. Same as they can carry a cocked da revolver in a holster safely. Same is true of a cocked H&K or Beretta 92 with the safety off. The problem begins when you want to do something with it beyond having it sit in a holster, or a desk drawer, or a purse. It's the handling it part that causes most of the trouble.

tipoc

 

[nwilliams]

I always carry my 1911's cocked and locked only because over the years it's become muscle memory for me to disengage the safety after drawing it from the holster.

I don't really see an issue with someone not carrying it looked. You have the backstrap safety as well as the firing pin block (in most 1911's these days) so unless you actually as pull the trigger the gun is not going to go off. I see as no different than carrying a Glock.

That said if you have an older 1911 without a firing pin block or one that has had the firing pin block removed then I would probably be a bit more reluctant to want to carry it cocked and unlocked in that case.

 

[tipoc]

It was mentioned earlier but we can look at it again.

In the military trials that eventually led to the adoption of the 1911 the Army gave out the weapons for trial to artillery and infantry units and also to the special forces units of the day...the cavalry.

The early guns had no thumb safety or grip safety. The first complaint from the troops was the gun could go off it dropped. So the firing fin was shortened and the firing pin spring made stronger and the grip safety was added. Problem solved.

Next problem, when they were done firing, it took two hands to lower the hammer safely to the fully down position or to the half cock. So the tang of the grip safety was lengthened to allow for one handed de-cocking. Problem sorta solved.

See the horse soldiers were the special forces of the day, they could fight from horseback or ride quickly to the fight, dismount and get into it. They had for decades established the gun handling skills that they always de-cocked their revolvers, both single and double action, before they tried to shove them back into the full flap holsters they carried. Whether it was on the back of a bucking horse or running across a rocky field in the dark they made the gun safe, they de-cocked it, before jamming the gun back in their rig. This lessened the chance of shooting yourself or the horse. That also made it safe to yank out the holster and cock it manually.

The problem they had with the one handed de-cocking was that it was hard to keep the kind of concentration that was involved in doing it safely when running or on the back of a bucking horse. So the thumb safety was added.

The thumb safety meant that you could make the gun safe to jam into a full flap holster while on the run. When you needed to draw the gun again all you had to do was flick off the safety. Easy to do, easy to master.

The thumb safety serves the same function today. With the safety engaged you can with confidence, smack a fella repeatedly in the head, run across a field in the dark, climb a fence, wrestle a fella, jam the gun in a holster while fighting a fella off or grab it out, and more, knowing that as long as the safety's engaged even if the finger strays (and they often do) it won't fire.

tipoc

 

[1911Tuner]

Good post, tipoc.

All I can add is that the grip safety appeared as a tacked-on experiment on the Model 1905, and incorporated into the design on the Model 1907. It reappeared on the 1909 and 1910...and the eight Model 1910s were returned with a request...from the US Cavalry...for a "Manual slide-locking" safety.

Why did they want it to lock the slide?

A pistol jammed into a holster on the run, under adverse conditions, might be pushed out of battery and fail to return when redrawn...which could subtract time from the cavalryman's average combat life expectancy.

Six of the eight were fitted with the thumb safeties and resubmitted...accepted...and the rest is history.

The thumb safety is a rapid reholstering safety...not a carry safety.

The grip safety is a drop safety...not a carry safety.

This is one of only two unmodified Model 1910s in existence.

1910 Colt photo courtesy of Charles Clawson.

 

[JRH6856]

The thumb safety is a rapid reholstering safety...not a carry safety.

Yep, but If the thumb safety was engaged for re-holstering, it was almost certainly left engaged in the holster becoming, by default, a carry safety. And over time, when those carrying it were more and more often not on horseback, the re-holstering aspect was forgotten and the only discernible purpose was for carry even if it was not the original purpose. (just a guess)

 

[1911Tuner]

Yep, but If the thumb safety was engaged for re-holstering, it was almost certainly left engaged in the holster becoming, by default, a carry safety.

As tipoc pointed out...rapid reholstering on the fly carried with it the assumption that the gun would be redrawn as soon as feasibly possible...because it was done during a fight when two hands were needed to handle another problem.

And over time, when those carrying it were more and more often not on horseback, the re-holstering aspect was forgotten and the only discernible purpose was for carry even if it was not the original purpose.

And when it was forgotten...mounted on horseback or not...US Army protocol still required the chamber to be clear, the hammer down, and the pistol holstered and maintained in Condition 3 unless and until action was imminent...at which point, it was permissible to chamber a round and engage the safety in order to make it instantly ready.

It was treated no differently than any other military smallarm.

 

[JRH6856]

It was treated no differently than any other military smallarm.

Understood. I was thinking more of civilians who might never have experienced military protocols.

 

[Delmar]

ANY firearm is dangerous, period. If they weren't, they wouldn't be worth carrying or employing in the first place.

I guess Glocks are okay for some. Calling them superior to a properly built 1911 is nothing more than opinion. The other designs might do it differently, but they don't do it any better.

 

[Drail]

Good point. Most people seem to automatically equate "different" with "better" - as in "it must be a new improved version of the old model". I've always gotten a chuckle out of that logic. The advertising and marketing industries have been exploiting that for years.

 

[Delmar]

Actually, the Glock uses the Petter improvement to Browning's dropping barrel design, using the oversized chamber area and locking the barrel to the slide ejection port rather than the internal lugs of the 1911.

IIRC, SIG was the first to use this on the SIG P210.

 

[1911Tuner]

using the oversized chamber area and locking the barrel to the slide ejection port rather than the internal lugs of the 1911.

That's a barrel upper lug at the ejection port. If you'll look at a 1911, and you'll notice that it has one of those, too. It's known as the first lug.

Doing away with the two forward lugs on the barrel simplified the barrel fitting by doing away with the need for equalizing three lugs with the mating lugs in the slide in order to get full breech strength. That's why the Glock slide is square...to match the horizontal engagement area of three equalized radial lugs.

The 1911's lugs engage horizontally between 10 and 2 O'Clock, and that's only for the first lug and only if it's fully engaged vertically...which doesn't provide for a lot of surface area...so it needs three lugs.

The Glock's single lug spreads out the load over a wide area instead of focusing it on a narrow point...which actually makes it a little stronger even with all thee radial lugs equalized.

 

[Drail]

Tuner, I really wish you could write a book on all the things you have learned in your time. I would pay pretty good money for a copy. Thank you for letting us all pick your brain.