CCW 1911, cocked and locked or no?

[shooter1]

Browning anticipated this problem, and in his original design went to pains to make it easy to manually lower the hammer to the safety notch using only one hand!
Only possible without the grip safety, of course!

str1

 

[buzz_knox]

I'll leave the draw and rack to the Israeli commandos.

Not even they are using this method before. It was developed at a time when Browning HP safeties were small and easily missed. Between that and the fact that the Israelis had a hodge podge of weapons, they went to the draw and rack as a universal method of getting weapons.

Now that they are using Jerichos, they have given up the draw and rack.

 

[HammerBite]

Only possible without the grip safety, of course!

Wrong. With the grip safety.

 

[shooter1]

Wrong. With the grip safety

I would like to see that demonstrated. As that is not likely to happen, please explain the hand manupulations involved in the process. I have average, or slightly bigger hands and can't imagine how I could contort in such a way to accomplish this task. I have a 1911 in my hand at the moment and I am totally stumped.
str1

 

[shooter1]

Wait!!
I found a way to lower the hammer with one hand on a 1911 with a grip safety!! Seems a little awkward, and a lot impratical, especially under battle conditions. Maybe I'm missing something---------------

str1

 

[HammerBite]

In a true M1911-pattern pistol (or something reasonably close) if you move the thumb of the firing hand to the hammer it will mess up your grip to the extent that you can't hold in the grip safety. However, if you draw the hammer all the way back it will bump into the rear projection of the grip safety and disengage it, allowing you to pull the trigger. This happens by design, not by accident. It is not necessary to alter your grip except for the position of your thumb. It only seems awkward the first three or four times you try it.

I do not know if this works with all the sexy current-day beavertail safeties because I don't own any.

Personally, I'm glad the Army demanded a thumb safety!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Browning anticipated this problem, and in his original design went to pains to make it easy to manually lower the hammer to the safety notch using only one hand!

That, of course, leaves you with the gun on half-cock. Not a good choice.

 

[PotatoJudge]

shooter1, you've figured out why lowering a hammer on a 1911 with beavertail is a pain. On the 1911-A1 pattern guns, the grip safety is so short that it doesn't get in the way of the thumb's movement toward the hammer spur. This is the one handed version, which I don't use. With two hands, things are more stable for me (that is, use your strong hand to hold the gun as if you were going to shoot and use the thumb of the weak hand to lower the hammer). The grip safety is also short enough to allow the thumb to pass around the back of it to cock the hammer on a condition 2 draw. Cocking on the draw is instinctive if you've done it enough with revolvers, and if you're already as slow on the draw as I am it won't slow you down any more.

In getting to condition 2, you must depress the trigger fully until the half cock notch is past the sear, otherwise you're either at half cock or have dinged your sear.

 

[HammerBite]

. . . you've figured out why lowering a hammer on a 1911 with beavertail is a pain. On the 1911-A1 pattern guns, the grip safety is so short that it doesn't get in the way of the thumb's movement toward the hammer spur.

Good point. I should have noticed the interference when I looked at shooter1's picture.

 

[shooter1]

Hammer Bite,
Thanks for the explanation on one hand decocking the 1911. I just tried it on two of my 1911s, a commerical Colt and a Taurus. It wouldn't work on either. The other 1911s I have are Kimbers/Springfields, an IAI, and one Ballester Molina I'll try them as well next time out of the safe. Lowering the hammer on the BM will be easy, no grip safety!

 

[HammerBite]

Strange. It work's on my Government Model, .45 Gold Cup and .38 Gold Cup.

 

[Charles S]

This is really a pointless discussion! Condition 2 is unsafe. It is mechanically unsafe and is not really an acceptable mode of carry.

I do not believe that anyone can make the first shot on a target at 3 yards from the holster with the handgun in condition 2 in under 0.9 seconds!

No police agency, no instructor, no individual with a modicum of training advocates condition 3. I have asked time and time again for individuals who carry condition three to show me documentation that any group that uses pistols as their primary weapon utilizes condition 3, even the Israelis no longer use it.

I have asked time and time again for advocates of condition 3 to list the training they have had.

I have challenged condition 3 advocates to go shoot a challenging course of fire.....NTI comes to mind in condition 3 and see how they do. I have yet to get a response on any of those questions or challenges.

It boils down to this, if you are uncomfortable with condition one either get more training, or change platforms.

 

[shooter1]

PotatoJudge,
I can see where the short beavertail could make one hand decocking possible. Still not very pratical, IMHO. Like you, I have no need to lower the hammer for condition 2 carry. In my younger days just about everything had an exposed hammer. We never gave it a second though! Many times we would cock the weapon and then decock if we did not fire. In those days the single action handguns were the only ones I cocked on the draw. I always praticed firing from the DA mode with DA handguns. This has been an informative and entertaining thread anyway!
str1

 

[SatCong]

1911 the only way cock & lock.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Consider the M1 rifle -- it can only be carried cocked-and-locked, or empty.

And millions of M1s have been carried that way in perfect safety, over many and many a mile.

 

[seeker_two]

Wow....so much said....

Yes, I was timed at 0.9 seconds from the draw (Uncle Mike's Kydex hip holster, Colt 1991A1 w/ short beavertail & issue spur hammer, rubber wraparound grips). Suprised the heck out of me, too! But 0.9 seconds in a IPSC competition is an eternity. And I didn't fumble....thanks to practice.

Guess I should have put in the decocking instructions that the strong hand is holding the 1911 in a firing grip and the weak hand is manipulating the hammer. "Repeat as necessary" means do the steps again until the hammer is fully at rest--not at half-cock. A 1911 will fire at half-cock if you have a soft primer load. It won't fire if the hammer is completely down. It's even safe if you drop it---but the best safety to prevent a drop-fire is NOT TO DROP THE GUN!...

For the record, I'm not against Condition 1 carry. But Condition 2 isn't a bad choice, either. That's what makes the 1911 such a great pistol...its versatility.

(...now those new Kimbers with the fingernail-looking vestigial hammers that can't be decocked....THOSE are dangerous... )

 

[Vern Humphrey]

(...now those new Kimbers with the fingernail-looking vestigial hammers that can't be decocked....THOSE are dangerous... )

The Kimbers are perfectly safe. It's the guy who's trying to de-cock a loaded M1911 who is dangerous.

 

[10-Ring]

Whenever I carry a 1911, it is cocked & locked...been doing so ever since I bought my first 1911. It's the way it was meant to be carried & has proven itself self & reliable!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The Army specified what we call Condition 1 (cocked and locked) or Condtiion 3 (loaded magazine, empty chamber) in combat, depending on conditions. It never endorsed Condition 2 (hammer down on a loaded round.)

 

[seeker_two]

The Kimbers are perfectly safe. It's the guy who's trying to de-cock a loaded M1911 who is dangerous.

No more so than decocking a SAA or any DA revolver. And a lot safer than relying only on a mechanical decocker (ala Walther P-38/P-1)....

 

[HammerBite]

I know that a blow on the hammer with the gun half-cocked can fire it.

And because of some miracle this can't happen when cocked and locked?

I have verified that on my 1911-pattern guns the safety stud that blocks the sear will also intercept the hammer if the sear-hammer engagement should fail, however, I have read that this is not true on all 1911-pattern guns.

 

[koja48]

Hammer down when it's in the vault (which isn't very often), condition 1 when it's with me, always (and I've carried this way for almost 40 years).

 

[Vern Humphrey]

No more so than decocking a SAA or any DA revolver.

Revolvers can be decocked while still holding the gun in a firing grip. Decocking a M1911 requires both hands, and is an awkward process.

And because of some miracle this can't happen when cocked and locked?

I personally know of two incidents where a blow to the hammer with the gun half-cocked resulted in an ND. I do not know of any such incident while cocked-and-locked.

Check Kuhnhausen's book and look at the safety arrangement. The safety lock blocks the sear from pivoting, while the half-cock notch remains to do it's job -- act as an intercepting safety should the hammer fall.

 

[seeker_two]

Revolvers can be decocked while still holding the gun in a firing grip. Decocking a M1911 requires both hands, and is an awkward process.

Decocked, Condition 2 1911's are perfectly safe. It's the guy who's trying to de-cock a loaded revolver one-handed who is dangerous....

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Decocked, Condition 2 1911's are perfectly safe.

I agree. Decocked, they are perfectly safe -- it's while trying to decock, or re-cock them that NDs happen.

It's the guy who's trying to de-cock a loaded revolver one-handed who is dangerous

While you can use a finger to block the hammer, the SAA was designed for use on horseback -- where you often have only one hand for the gun.

Despite that, manipulating trigger, hammer and grip safety of the M1911 is not my idea of a safe recreational activity.