shooting from the hip

Fully agree.
Especially with trigger control.
Without that even a laser is pretty useless.

Matthew Temkin said:

Learning how to hip shoot does not negate the need to practice aimed fire, two handed shooting, flash sight index or anything else.
They all should be in the toolbox of a well rounded combat shooter.
Of course if there are some here who believe they will always have the time, distance, lighting conditions,druthers, etc, etc to always get a sight picture--no matter how course--then more power to them.

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Actually I agree. Not only agree but I feel it's a must.

And even Jeff Coopers "MT" had the speed rock for very close range.

There are many variations of hip shooting/retention shooting.

Just learn one and practice often using a laser gun, or soft-air, or .22 lr.

I find hip shooting FUN! Unfortunately in Dallas the indoor ranges are a bunch of sticks-in-the-mud about anything but slow fire two handed target shooting.

Fortunately I have places to get around that!

Deaf

For those interested in FBI qualifications, Tom Givens has a good write up about 3/5s of the way down in his newsletter:

http://www.rangemaster.com/newsletter/2010-01_RM-Newsletter.pdf

Being that I carry a little pocket pistol most of the time and in the pocket literally, the aiming is a little awkward in the first place. I was very surprised that I actually could put 100% in a pie plate at 10 yards taking my time to actually hold my breath and aim. But this got me thinking that point shooting would be a very good thing to practice, and I do so now. I found that I could easily hit the core of a man sized target at 15 feet slow fire as well as rapid fire even on the first try. I think this ability is because I have been an avid speargunner while snorkeling and SCUBA diving most of my life where there is no aiming at all. I feel point shooting is something everybody should practice and if the hand-eye coordination cannot be found then double the practice getting that sight picture of your target because that is all you will be able to get. I think its a no-brainer that putting your sight on your target is best but I'd rather have the option of making a less accurate shot than failing in my defense due to time constraints.

mortablunt said:

I don't exactly see how you would be able to aim at all if you used a handgun from the hip.

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But... they used to do it in the Old West ALL the time!! Don't you ever watch movies?!?!

I can reliably hit at close range with a shotgun tucked under my arm but then I have been practicing for 30 years. I can't shoot skeet like this but I can repeatadly and reliably hit a dinner plate sized target at indoor distiances. It is not totaly unsighted. Even though both eyes are on the target I still can see the barrel in my peripheral vision and simply line it up with what I am shooting at. This position is very secure and makes your shotgun easier to manuver in close quarters. The main drawback is the fact that your line of sight is a good bit higher than the barrel of the gun and you might be looking over obsticals like furniture that block your shot. I think that the average person can learn to shoot this way with practice but it should never be your default. If I have any choice I will shoulder the shotgun. This is just an option for manuvering through your hallway or other small rooms.

As this short clip shows one can point shoot a shotgun--or handgun for that matter--from either the shoulder or the hip.
Neither method is meant to replace both aimed and semi aimed fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7y-LqD5dnw

Reference: Laser Sight

My defense pistol has a rail laser... soon to be a grip laser instead. When the adrenaline is pumping I don't want to be thinking about anything except, who is there, are they a threat, if a threat then put red dot on COM, pull trigger.

Lasers make "shooting from the hip" much easier and more accurate. Just MHO, of course.

both fired off more than three rounds with less than 4 metres between them , all in less than about 2 - 3 seconds

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Plenty of time there to bring the pistol to eye level, get a rudimentary sight picture and fire more than 3 shots. Might even get some hits. Do I really have time to be missing in this scenario?

What's with all the iron sight vs. laser argument? For me it's a no-brainer. Lasers are FAR quicker and more accurate in a high-adrenaline SD situation. But maybe that's just me.

Lasers are FAR quicker and more accurate in a high-adrenaline SD situation. But maybe that's just me.

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That is definitely "just you".

Read this for a more complete explanation: http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7340645&postcount=4

But that's beside the fact here, where Lee L. and Old Fuff are explaining their value mostly as a training aid or sighting aid for unusual circumstances.

When employed as a primary sighting system, they cannot compete with iron sights due to how sighting works at high speed. "Front sight, PRESS, repeat." Not "look over your sights and find the bouncing ball."

fiddletown said:

I have to agree with Sam.

When I was at Gunsite in 2006 many of the instructors had Crimson Trace laser grips on their sidearms. I talked with them about lasers. They were actually mounting them because they were in the process of evaluating their use. The consensus at the time was:

• They were a slower than using the sights.
  
• They are useful, however, if postion, posture or circumstances make it difficult or impossible to use your sights.
  
• You still need your basic marksmanship skills. Without good trigger control you will miss, even with a laser.

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And that is the way I feel.

I saw a guy today using a laser on his guy at 5 yards (indoor range.) He still had groups about eight inches in diameter! Yea at 5 yards.

See all these lasers don't help if you have poor trigger control and can't hold the gun steady.

And if you can control that trigger and hold steady you don't need a laser unless you have some very bad visual problems.

Meanwhile I was doing head shots at 7 yards, left handed, with my J Centennial .38 from the leather (and under a t-shirt.) And I don't have a laser. I didn't have my glasses on either nor am I left handed.

If you want to shoot well learn your index, master your trigger control, and perfect your timing.

Deaf

Sam1911 said:

That is definitely "just you".

Read this for a more complete explanation: http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7340645&postcount=4

But that's beside the fact here, where Lee L. and Old Fuff are explaining their value mostly as a training aid or sighting aid for unusual circumstances.

When employed as a primary sighting system, they cannot compete with iron sights due to how sighting works at high speed. "Front sight, PRESS, repeat." Not "look over your sights and find the bouncing ball."

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Maybe so... but I'm thinking of dim light situations (3 AM invasion) and I know I can't easily use iron sights in the dim light. But, again, that's just me. Of course, if it was so dark I can't identify my target then I'd have to wait for other indicators to know if my target is a threat.

When employed as a primary sighting system, they cannot compete with iron sights due to how sighting works at high speed. "Front sight, PRESS, repeat." Not "look over your sights and find the bouncing ball."

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The more popular laser sights are mounted in a grip panel, and do not in any way block or hinder the use of regular iron sights - if that's what the user chooses to do. In other words they are an additional option, to be picked when they offer an advantage dictated by circumstances.

In a low light environment at say 12 feet or closer I'm not going to be looking for a front sight because I'm not likely to lift the gun to eye level, with or without a laser sight. At 20 yards I'm unlikely to pay any attention to the red dot, unless darkness prevents the use of other sights.

Well, low/no-light conditions may be an instance where the laser is optimal. Otherwise, a great deal of study by some folks who know how to conduct unbiased research into such matters indicates that a laser actually hinders a good shooter's normal abilities. Using aimed fire, the gun simply cannot be "run" as fast as it could with iron sights, while maintaining accuracy.

I know me... and I know that I'd be concentrating on the threat coming at me rather than my gun sights. So, for ME, laser sights are the ticket. Yeah, I know I may be weird.

Well, low/no-light conditions may be an instance where the laser is optimal.

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I try to stay away from potential shooting situation, and getting into one is unlikely to the highest degree. But I have noticed that past incidents which happened to others seem to often be under low-light/close-up conditions.

Of course this is not always so, but have ya' ever noticed that when one is under high stress, that front sight can dance around, even in good light?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

So, for ME, laser sights are the ticket. Yeah, I know I may be weird.

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No, you're not weird. After-action reports given by individuals who experienced a shooting often say they don't remember seeing the sights, just the threat. That's why some combat systems were (and still are) based on focusing on the threat, particularly when the gun isn't raised to eye level.

Cooper's Modern technique of the pistol has a lot to offer, but it isn't the ideal way to go in any and all situations. That's why we have choices and options.

but I'm thinking of dim light situations

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Good flashlight is needed in dim or no light situations. Got to ID that target! A laser does nothing to differentiate between one of your kids/drunk neighbors/spouse wandering around the house.

A 110 lumen flashlight can be a weapon in it's own right when you illuminate someone who's eye are dilated.

Yes, of course, but I prefer the light/laser to be on the firearm. Turn it on and I have my weak hand free. IMHO, it's all about preferences.

fiddletown said:

Not necessarily.

For example, the Gunsite perspective on a gun mounted light: they are good for shooting, but one still needs a flashlight for looking and seeing. Remember Rule Two of gun safety -- “never let the muzzle cover something you are not willing to destroy.” One needs to be able to illuminate something without pointing a gun at it. This was confirmed during the low light exercises in my recent Gunsite class, where I learned from experience that there will be times when one will want to be able to maneuver his light without pointing his gun.

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I hear you... but I live alone and never have guests. So anyone I'm not expecting in my home really shouldn't be here. I should elaborate that it's not just a matter of preference but circumstance as well.