Wanye is out of his mind
- Thread starter Napalm
- Start date
- Status
Jenrick
Member
Whether you believer violent games and other media have anything to do with the issue is completely besides the point. Both the gaming industry and the TV/motion picture industry have HUGE lobby groups, media machines, etc. IF we can get them involved in the process they can't very well say "guns are bad and evil, now what this TV show glorifying the bad things." Getting several other extremely, large, experienced, and proficient political action groups on board with the "lets address the root of the problem," mental health problems, vs the symptoms or tool used in outbursts.
-Jenrick
-Jenrick
Good post. Realistic, tangible numbers that could have been extrapolated out (~2.5 to 3 billion for the nation) and contrasted/compared with what the US gives as a nation in foreign aid (around 50 billion in all) to places like Pakistan that hate us anyway. Too bad the NRA didn't take that angle. You are correct, I think they could use some new blood with some more dynamic thinking.
Certaindeaf
member
It's already paid for in spades. Every school has multiple redundancies in their administrations/budget that are tremendously wasteful.. but those positions pay union dues!
Texan Scott
Member
I once lived somewhere where a man pranked his twin brother on their birthday by flying low over a golf tourney in which the brother was playing and scattering/ air dropping hundreds and hundreds of white oing-pong balls over the fairway in play. HILARIOUS! Took the players, caddies, and groundkeepers HOURS to find the real golfballs in play.
hso was first to hint at this, I think, and others have caught on. Disagree with any one of LePierre's talking points if you must (everyone else will), but he has CHANGED the DEBATE by introducing multiple balls on the fairway. Even if you think these aren't the real issues or solutions, the antis now have multiple issues to address and the problem of their unwitting (or witless) followers becoming distracted.
I for one think he had some good things to say. Gun owners are not obsessed with violence. American culture IS. Ask any European- they'll tell you, boobs bother us, but we show people shooting, stabbing, and beating each other on a nightly basis on prime time TV for our entertainment. Even 'Walker, Texas Ranger' (which my kids have on dvd and I consider very mild, family-friendly entertainment) shows the Hero solving problems (invariably) by round-house kicking someone through a coffee table.
My children have gown up with two parents who live together, don't hit or scream at each other, help them with their schoolwork, and insist on knowing where they are, who they're with, and what they're doing. A lot of kids grow up not so lucky or well cared for. Sadly, lot of adults can point to their parents and their childhood as a source of their anger problems instead of that time when Mom and Dad taught them how to deal, cope, and respond to life's issues.
WE CAN'T LEGISLATE AWAY THESE PROBLEMS. We can't 'correct' society by treating adults like children - taking away 'dangerous' toys, restricting their TV, controlling their activities and their lives and telling them it's for their own good.
Sadly, armed cops in the schools is an idea whose time has come... came a long time ago, if we care to admit it. Sometimes force, lethal or otherwise, is the only way to deal with someone whose problems run too deep to be corrected with time-out and a talking-to.
hso was first to hint at this, I think, and others have caught on. Disagree with any one of LePierre's talking points if you must (everyone else will), but he has CHANGED the DEBATE by introducing multiple balls on the fairway. Even if you think these aren't the real issues or solutions, the antis now have multiple issues to address and the problem of their unwitting (or witless) followers becoming distracted.
I for one think he had some good things to say. Gun owners are not obsessed with violence. American culture IS. Ask any European- they'll tell you, boobs bother us, but we show people shooting, stabbing, and beating each other on a nightly basis on prime time TV for our entertainment. Even 'Walker, Texas Ranger' (which my kids have on dvd and I consider very mild, family-friendly entertainment) shows the Hero solving problems (invariably) by round-house kicking someone through a coffee table.
My children have gown up with two parents who live together, don't hit or scream at each other, help them with their schoolwork, and insist on knowing where they are, who they're with, and what they're doing. A lot of kids grow up not so lucky or well cared for. Sadly, lot of adults can point to their parents and their childhood as a source of their anger problems instead of that time when Mom and Dad taught them how to deal, cope, and respond to life's issues.
WE CAN'T LEGISLATE AWAY THESE PROBLEMS. We can't 'correct' society by treating adults like children - taking away 'dangerous' toys, restricting their TV, controlling their activities and their lives and telling them it's for their own good.
Sadly, armed cops in the schools is an idea whose time has come... came a long time ago, if we care to admit it. Sometimes force, lethal or otherwise, is the only way to deal with someone whose problems run too deep to be corrected with time-out and a talking-to.
racenutz
Member
I do too and I've seen an appalling number of people on other sites that want the 2nd gone & the 1st right behind it as both are "dangerous"
As in criminal law, a lawyer can get an “expert” to testify in support of his argument. Point being you can get statistics to favor any cause you believe in. I think the strategy Wayne was using was one of deflection; make the focus of the debate on something other than more gun laws.
The NRA will be discredited regardless of the statements they make. You are bound to ruffle some feathers when you suggest some of the potential causes of a complex problem; especially those near and dear to you.
It’s odd that this level of scrutiny in never applied to the first amendment where the “pen is mightier than the sword”. But then again, the media considers its right sacrosanct.
The NRA will be discredited regardless of the statements they make. You are bound to ruffle some feathers when you suggest some of the potential causes of a complex problem; especially those near and dear to you.
It’s odd that this level of scrutiny in never applied to the first amendment where the “pen is mightier than the sword”. But then again, the media considers its right sacrosanct.
Jim Watson
Member
You have to be careful about that, too. The mentally abnormal have their support groups and spokespeople, too. The mere mention of Asperger's Syndrome and Autism in connection with murder brought out a lot of protests in those circles.
RonC
Member
"Disagree with any one of LePierre's talking points if you must (everyone else will), but he has CHANGED the DEBATE by introducing multiple balls on the fairway. Even if you think these aren't the real issues or solutions, the antis now have multiple issues to address and the problem of their unwitting (or witless) followers becoming distracted."
Yes, but there is another way to look at the situation. The other side now can pick and choose among the balls, focus on any single one that is incorrect or not supportable by the data, and use it to pound back at the NRA. Essentially, he just spread balls of ammunition to the opposition.
Ron
Yes, but there is another way to look at the situation. The other side now can pick and choose among the balls, focus on any single one that is incorrect or not supportable by the data, and use it to pound back at the NRA. Essentially, he just spread balls of ammunition to the opposition.
Ron
slidemuzik
Member
The argument that video games don't have some effect on those that play them is just not logical. It's denying the obvious. Why would the military use the same technology to train soldiers?
Does it cause killers? NO. Does it give someone already inclined to commit violence a tool that further empowers them? YES. Just like firearms.
The games are battle simulations. They give some degree of experience and trains the mind to react in that environment. To deny this is dishonest.
The answer is NOT legislation. The answer is personal responsibilities. A violent video game should NOT be played unsupervised any younger than they should/would be allowed to shoot a firearm unattended. They should be treated exactly the same. For the same reasons.
If you're a parent be vigilent! Lay down the law and don't apologise for it to your kids, their friends, or any other parent. If you are not responsible for raising a kid, ask those around you that do... how are they dealing with it? Push the debate. Sometimes parents of those kids need to know other adults care and are concerned. Sometimes they just need reminding to have some backbone.
The parallels between guns and the violent video games seem obvious to me. They should be handled the same way.
Does it cause killers? NO. Does it give someone already inclined to commit violence a tool that further empowers them? YES. Just like firearms.
The games are battle simulations. They give some degree of experience and trains the mind to react in that environment. To deny this is dishonest.
The answer is NOT legislation. The answer is personal responsibilities. A violent video game should NOT be played unsupervised any younger than they should/would be allowed to shoot a firearm unattended. They should be treated exactly the same. For the same reasons.
If you're a parent be vigilent! Lay down the law and don't apologise for it to your kids, their friends, or any other parent. If you are not responsible for raising a kid, ask those around you that do... how are they dealing with it? Push the debate. Sometimes parents of those kids need to know other adults care and are concerned. Sometimes they just need reminding to have some backbone.
The parallels between guns and the violent video games seem obvious to me. They should be handled the same way.
IdahoSkies
Member
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2009
- Messages
- 549
Wayne only got us half way there. Addressing our schools as gunfree zones needed to happen. Especially in the context that he offered. We protect politicians, and money, but not our most valuable asset and creation, or children. Ya there is something wrong with that.
He should have then moved to the mental health issue and offered to work on a national mental health database for NICS. This would stake out the NRA as offering real solutions for the present, and real solutions for the future.
Unless you want a totalitarian government, government needs to stay out of culture. What government should be doing is solving the tragedy of the commons, and when dealing with firearms, that really means mental health.
Dealing with mental health may mean the NRA has to backtrack as it supported limiting those type of checks (per a prior post in this thread). That would give the NRA's position even more credibility, showing that they are willing to readdress things, IF they can result in real solutions.
He should have then moved to the mental health issue and offered to work on a national mental health database for NICS. This would stake out the NRA as offering real solutions for the present, and real solutions for the future.
Unless you want a totalitarian government, government needs to stay out of culture. What government should be doing is solving the tragedy of the commons, and when dealing with firearms, that really means mental health.
Dealing with mental health may mean the NRA has to backtrack as it supported limiting those type of checks (per a prior post in this thread). That would give the NRA's position even more credibility, showing that they are willing to readdress things, IF they can result in real solutions.
Sgt.Murtaugh
Member
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2010
- Messages
- 245
I generally agreed with most of what Wayne laid down today, but c'mon, dude, please don't bring up video games. At least not on that particluar platform. I too, found the video game comment as sort of "grasping for straws-ish"
stonecutter2
Member
Thanks for that tidbit of info. I'm sure some anti-gun person will throw that out in a discussion.
Also, I commend you for your perfectly cromulent signature
Then maybe they will not consider a ban on 30 rd magazines since they will need all the"ammunition" they can muster. No amount of facts and figures will dissuade the ideology of the left. If it helps the middle to think about other options, we gain ground.
pseudonymity
Member
I have not seen the video but I have read the transcript, and I have to wonder if the video game angle is really just a diversionary tactic. I did not like video games much when I was younger and decades later I still do not care much for them, but I agree they are not very likely at all to be part of the root cause here.
That being said, opposition is beginning to focus on gun control specifically as the solution, so if the NRA can divert some of the attention and time away from that focused effort, it can help. Mental health in a large part is not really the issue either - the vast majority of people suffering from mental health issues are not and will not become violent. By introducing topics into the discussion that may drive a wedge into groups that would not normally come together over an issue, we may be able to introduce fractures in the solidarity of the opposition.
This is more smoke and mirrors at this point than anything else. What the NRA needs to concentrate on is obscuring, delaying, redirecting and otherwise killing any new legislation. Since there is nothing really defined to oppose at this point, the best they can do is try to introduce topics that can cause infighting among opposition groups with polarizing topics.
The opposition has to bridge their differences and come up with some type of proposal that addresses some of the concerns of all the different groups. We have to specifically just keep any new gun control legislation from passing. In a sense, we do not have to win, we just have to keep the opposition from hitting us where it hurts.
That being said, opposition is beginning to focus on gun control specifically as the solution, so if the NRA can divert some of the attention and time away from that focused effort, it can help. Mental health in a large part is not really the issue either - the vast majority of people suffering from mental health issues are not and will not become violent. By introducing topics into the discussion that may drive a wedge into groups that would not normally come together over an issue, we may be able to introduce fractures in the solidarity of the opposition.
This is more smoke and mirrors at this point than anything else. What the NRA needs to concentrate on is obscuring, delaying, redirecting and otherwise killing any new legislation. Since there is nothing really defined to oppose at this point, the best they can do is try to introduce topics that can cause infighting among opposition groups with polarizing topics.
The opposition has to bridge their differences and come up with some type of proposal that addresses some of the concerns of all the different groups. We have to specifically just keep any new gun control legislation from passing. In a sense, we do not have to win, we just have to keep the opposition from hitting us where it hurts.
Seventhsword
Member
Food for thought: Over these past few days the news has been filled with reports of teenage boys planning and/or threatening to go to school and "shoot students and teachers."
What does that tell you? It tells me: they cannot differentiate between Fantasy and Reality. They think this is one big game.
What does that tell you? It tells me: they cannot differentiate between Fantasy and Reality. They think this is one big game.
Grossman cites Grossman far to much to cite him.
***
Sticking to the topic, we seem to be arguing over how the sausage is being made. Specifically the inclusion of violent video games in the list of concerns for the causes of incidents like this. A cause, not a root cause. The other causes were equally dear to many, violent TV and movie content, infatuation and glorification by the media of violent events, security at schools, mental health care. The problem with bringing up video games is that there are ardent defenders against the contention that they play a negative developmental role while hardly anyone can attack the lack of security, absence of mental health systems, news media glorification of violent incidents with the same passion.
Perhaps it was a strategic mistake to include that amongst the other hot topics that have been at the top of the discussion if it offends enough people that they abandon the NRA OR they know that NRA members that are so offended will throw in their lot with the 2nd Amendment Foundation or GOA instead of sit this one out.
***
Sticking to the topic, we seem to be arguing over how the sausage is being made. Specifically the inclusion of violent video games in the list of concerns for the causes of incidents like this. A cause, not a root cause. The other causes were equally dear to many, violent TV and movie content, infatuation and glorification by the media of violent events, security at schools, mental health care. The problem with bringing up video games is that there are ardent defenders against the contention that they play a negative developmental role while hardly anyone can attack the lack of security, absence of mental health systems, news media glorification of violent incidents with the same passion.
Perhaps it was a strategic mistake to include that amongst the other hot topics that have been at the top of the discussion if it offends enough people that they abandon the NRA OR they know that NRA members that are so offended will throw in their lot with the 2nd Amendment Foundation or GOA instead of sit this one out.
Last edited:
powell&hyde
Member
Kudos to the NRA, well done speeches by Wayne and Asa.
Interesting how the idea that violence in video games and entertainment as a contributor of violent crime gets immediately shunted to X number of books and studies that say otherwise while books & studies that dispel guns as the source of violence is ignored. Hmmmm?
- Status
Similar threads
