Thoughts on pistol caliber carbines?

Also an SBR, correct?



No, the carbine isn't, they do make SBRs and other types. Plus it takes the Glock's 21/30 mags.........

I think I may have posted to that "exhaustive" and rather exhausting long thread as well....

Of the various PCC's I've got to shoot I've found that there are FUN guns and there are EFFECTIVE guns.

In the category of FUN guns I'd put the Keltec and JR Carbine. Both kick a good smack to the shoulder considering the small round and mass of the rifle. Both also tend to leak a little of the gases and flecks of "stuff" due to the basic blowback operation.

In the category of EFFECTIVE I put the Beretta Storm and an HK 9mm carbine that I can't recall the model number for. Both make the 9mm rounds feel like .22LR and both kick very little and both put truly small groups of holes in the center of the target very quickly.

As a defensive TOOL the Storm is superlative. But for range giggles the Keltec and JR Carbine are MUCH more fun. This isn't to suggest that these two could not serve well as defensive tools. But if you're trying to stack the deck in your favour I'd go with the Beretta or that, regretfully, unremembered H&K model.

The others I can't comment on since these four are my sum total of PCC experience. But it did point out that all PCC's are NOT created equally.

Going to have to ++ Bob.

Of all the handgun rounds out there, I am most interested in seeing 10mm PCCs. And while I'm not a huge glock fan (My 10mm is a Tanfoglio Witness) it looks like that kit is the only way to go at the moment.

I've had the Ruger PC9, Colt 9mm 16" AR (6950?) Marlin Camp .45; and Winchester and Marlin 1894s in .357 magnum. Of those, the Colt was my favorite, but I kept thinking to myself, "man, this would be much more fun if it was an SBR," and "man, this would be much more fun if it was full auto." Those thoughts just lead to more money spent, which is the reason I sold the Colt. The Ruger was reliable and accurate and entirely too heavy; the .40 cal version is what I'd go with if I had to choose that gun again. The pistol caliber lever guns were fun, but I usually preferred .30-30 in the same platform. The Marlin Camp Carbine was too pretty to shoot, but shot fine when it did; at the time I didn't keep safe queens.

Now I've got the Ruger 77/357. It feels lighter than the PC9 did, but I haven't looked up the weights to see the difference. So far I dig it. I haven't rung it out with .357 ammo yet, though.

The above mentioned HK is likely an HK-94 carbine, which like the UZI, is a sought after collector item. The only aspect of both I don't favor is the long spindly barrel that sticks way out to make it legal in some states that don't allow subjects to own SBR's. The magazines for the HK are very expensive, while the 9mm UZI mags can be found surplus for a lot less. The advantage the UZI has is that conversion kits were produced, in several calibers such as .45ACP, 10mm, .41AE that I recall. Mags other than 9mm are very expensive and hard to obtain, but I recently saw a repro version of the .45 for a whole lot le$$. The HK is much more ergonomic, but I prefer the .45 UZI, as it folds up to a very compact package, and can be fired with the stock either folded or extended. Either way, both are still fun to shoot, and could be used for social purposes if needed.

I've been very happy with my Just Right Carbine in 9mm;

I must be missing something with that " MECH TECH Glock conversion unit"

How is putting this carbine upper on your handgun with this kit not illegally adding a stock to a pistol, which the frame is?

What am I missing that makes this a legal conversion?
Woody

I must be missing something with that " MECH TECH Glock conversion unit"

How is putting this carbine upper on your handgun with this kit not illegally adding a stock to a pistol, which the frame is?

What am I missing that makes this a legal conversion?
Woody

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Adding a stock AND A 16"+ BARREL to a pistol simply makes it a rifle by the terms of the National Firearms Act.

Now there was a problem with that up until a couple of years ago in that when you went BACK to pistol configuration you were technically making a "firearm made from a rifle" (i.e., SBR). The ATF held for many years that once you'd installed your kit you couldn't put the pistol barrel back in (with stock or no) without registering the gun as an SBR.

They changed their interpretation on that 2-3 years ago so now you can switch back and forth at will.

NOTE: This only applies when you're starting with a handgun. It does NOT apply if you've got a gun (say an AR-15) that starts off as a rifle. In that case you must register the weapon as an SBR before adding a short barrel in any stock configuration.

Ok, I read what they said on the Mech Tech web site. I would still worry about this conversion. But then I am not very trusting.

I would still worry about this conversion. But then I am not very trusting.

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Worry about what part of it?

Pistol converted to rifle has ALWAYS been legal.

The recent published ATF ruling makes it quite clear that converting back is now legal, too.

My favorite pistol caliber carbine is a half-magazine saddle ring Winchester '92 38-40 made in 1910. Power is just under 10mm Colt. The combination holds 7 cartridges fully loaded and only weighs about 5 pounds. Trigger is perfect, action is slick. If I had to, I could loop a leather thong through the saddle ring and carry it under a long coat. Anything I can do with any pistol, I can do faster and more accurately with this little '92carbine, and the combination of 38-40 and '92 is virtually without recoil. With cast bullets it's cheap to shoot, and if the situation allows time to prepare I can flip up the ladder sight which converts into an aperture which gives stunning accuracy. This carbine is the one to carry on those days when I don't expect to need a rifle.

Be well, Bob

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Yep, I'm sure that underwood ammo is really zipping out of that extended barrel. Nice.

Personal choice, I just like the 40 S&W in a Hi-Point 4095TS, 9mm might be cheaper to shoot though.

Jim

I just bought a 9mm HI-Point

and while I have always had some reservations about these guns, the one I got just works. As said by others they are fun. If I were to put this in a defensive role, which I may, I would go with with hollow points that expand reliably like speer gold dots or federal 9BP which I have a boat load of. The expanding Hollow point will help in preventing over penetration. In a 16" barrel I would stay away from +P and +P+ rounds for any indoor work.

40-82 said

My favorite pistol caliber carbine is a half-magazine saddle ring Winchester '92 38-40 made in 1910. Power is just under 10mm Colt. The combination holds 7 cartridges fully loaded and only weighs about 5 pounds. Trigger is perfect, action is slick. If I had to, I could loop a leather thong through the saddle ring and carry it under a long coat. Anything I can do with any pistol, I can do faster and more accurately with this little '92carbine, and the combination of 38-40 and '92 is virtually without recoil. With cast bullets it's cheap to shoot, and if the situation allows time to prepare I can flip up the ladder sight which converts into an aperture which gives stunning accuracy. This carbine is the one to carry on those days when I don't expect to need a rifle

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That sounds so interesting.....If you get a chance post a photo of that Winchester......I love these old lever guns. (Americana)

Be well, Bob

rondog said:

But IMO it's hard to beat a good ol' M1 Carbine, although it's not a PCC.

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Many owners of Ruger Blackhawks in .30 Carbine would disagree with you.

Not a large choice of models available.

If you are ruling out the Hi-Point (don't, they are great fun and they work but you get to make up your own mind) and Kel-Tec, you might have to pony up bigger bucks for a Beretta or try to find a used Ruger PC9 or Marlin Camp Carbine.

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You forget about the pistol caliber uppers for ARs. I think they make the most sense as SBRs, but 9mm does gain a useful increment of velocity from the longer barrel.

I worked in a gun/pawn shop for years as an apprentice to the smith (who worked at King's) and have played with just about all types of arms. Each pistol carbine has it's own pros and cons.
Kel-Tec- I owned one in 9mm with Glock mags. It shot fine and never had any problems with it and I sold it when they really went up in price.
Beretta- Great but carries the price tag as well. I have shot a bunch of these and they are fun. No problems with any of them.
Hi-Point- Honestly they are the best example of KISS. They work and do it cheaply but weigh more and to me aren't attractive but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Main thing for these is to really keep them oiled or they will rust.
Marlin- If you can find a Camp buy it they are great and really reliable. The 45 is harder to find but you can't go wrong with any of them.
Ruger- These are fun I love the 44 in a semiauto. These are hard to find and they do have issues. The stocks were prone to breakage and they can be picky about ammo. I love them though and if you have a 10/22 it carries right over.
As for cheap to shoot that again is a matter of personal belief. Almost everything is cheap when compared to something else and if you reload. My personal favorite pistol caliber is 9mm, to me it's cheap and I can carry more of it due to weight. However the knock down power is the trade off. You can't have it all unless you have Bill Gates wallet and Vin Diesel's muscle.

To me, this is a "pistol caliber carbine" - as the round is probably equal to 9mm...

I love this gun:

I have 3 GI M1 carbines, and I keep one in the safe with a stock pouch and 2 extra mags loaded and ready. It is for me the perfect configuration and I can point and shoot very accurately with them (not bullseye, but kill zone accurate). Just about everyone has a favorite, and the M1 is mine

A friend of mine has a Ruger BH in 30 that he doesn't shoot much. Kind of like standing near the muzzle of a 105mm howitzer...

Originally Posted by rondog

But IMO it's hard to beat a good ol' M1 Carbine, although it's not a PCC.

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Many owners of Ruger Blackhawks in .30 Carbine would disagree with you.

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I would also say a FN PS-90 would be most ideal for a home defense role, being that it fires a light, fast bullet that destabilizes and dumps energy quickly. IMO a 5.56 AR would be better, but that isn't what the OP asked.

I agree a setup on an ar platform could be best bang for buck but goes outside the op's want. Don't. Blame him we want what we want.

wally said:

You forget about the pistol caliber uppers for ARs. I think they make the most sense as SBRs, but 9mm does gain a useful increment of velocity from the longer barrel.

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The 9mm AR upper is not know for reliable feeding of anything other than FMJ bullet profiles and its fairly abusive on the lower.

If its not an SBR, the 16" barrel on the AR makes it a bit more cumbersome when compared to the Beretta Storm and High Point carbines.

If an SBR is possible in your location, a shortened M1 carbine or Enforcer Pistol in an M1A1 folding stock would be quite formidable and very effective

Don