Thoughts on pistol caliber carbines?

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Originally Posted by rondog
But IMO it's hard to beat a good ol' M1 Carbine, although it's not a PCC.

Many owners of Ruger Blackhawks in .30 Carbine would disagree with you.
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Well, they might. But I'd consider them wrong. That particular model of Blackhawk would actually be a Carbine Caliber Pistol or Revolver, in my opinion. CCP or CCR, depending on your preference. The .30 Carbine round wasn't designed for handguns, it was designed for the M1 Carbine. There were a few handguns designed to use that round, yes, but that round wasn't designed for handguns now was it?

And yes, I know the .30 Carbine round evolved from some other cartridge.....but we're not talking about that one.
 
And AFA 10mm carbines, these YouTube Yahoos made a 10mm Hi-Point carbine. They don't say what they did, but the speculation is that they took a .45 carbine and put a .40 barrel on it. Might also be a .40 carbine with a reamed chamber, no telling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qt0cUHG7zI
 
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rondog said:
Well, they might. But I'd consider them wrong. That particular model of Blackhawk would actually be a Carbine Caliber Pistol or Revolver, in my opinion. CCP or CCR, depending on your preference. The .30 Carbine round wasn't designed for handguns, it was designed for the M1 Carbine. There were a few handguns designed to use that round, yes, but that round wasn't designed for handguns now was it?

And yes, I know the .30 Carbine round evolved from some other cartridge.....but we're not talking about that one.
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I understand your point, but my thought would be that the cartridge itself really is a pistol style cartridge. They just chose to use it in a carbine first.

Weren't some of the cartridges that were first used in the Winchester 1873 rifle later adapted by Colt in his pistols, and are now thought of as pistol cartridges?
 
What is the result of a 9mm upper on the AR platform? Does it somehow beat it up or lead to damage such as cracks, galling, or something else?
 
The 9mm AR upper is not know for reliable feeding of anything other than FMJ bullet profiles and its fairly abusive on the lower.
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I can't agree with either statement. IMO, the AR just makes the most sense because of the flexibility. Plus all the bazillions of after market parts available for them. I used to think I would have a couple of lowers and then multiple uppers. It never seems to work out that way for me. I just end up buying another stripped lower and building a new one. It is nice being able to swap them around though if you want some special configuration.

In my case, I wanted it all. And I wanted to end up with a SBR some day. So I got a Lone Wolf lower that uses Glock mags. I bought all the various parts and sent it all off to Ron Williams.

http://cncgunsparts.com

That takes care of the "abusive to the lower" since RW makes them DI. Short little tube and recoil drops to a very low level. I also wanted a .357 SIG since I have multiple versions of it around the house. And lots of Glock 31 mags. Ron built it as an AR pistol. 9" barrel. LaRue handguard. SSA trigger.

Once he has one built, he tests it by putting in a registered connector and running it full auto. He said it was a lot of fun. And it has always run 100% on every type of bullet. Sure doesn't care if it is JHP.

My plan is to someday go full SBR on it. It is a lot of fun the way it is since you can use the pistol tube as a short stock. But it would be much more "heavy duty" with a proper stock. The way it is right now it is an easy 125 yard chest shot gun. Bring it up, put the red dot where you want it, tap the SSA trigger, easy hit.

I love my AR's. Even the .22 LR versions. The pistol cartridge version is just another sweet idea. I need to get one of the DDLES lowers for full size Glock mags and have Ron build me two more uppers, one in 10mm and one in .45 ACP.

Gregg
 
splithoof said:
What is the result of a 9mm upper on the AR platform? Does it somehow beat it up or lead to damage such as cracks, galling, or something else?
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The 9mm is a blowback and its fairly hard on the trigger and hammer pins. Pin breakage and damage to the receiver holes is not uncommon.

Don
 
tulsamal said:
I can't agree with either statement. IMO, the AR just makes the most sense because of the flexibility. Plus all the bazillions of after market parts available for them. I used to think I would have a couple of lowers and then multiple uppers. It never seems to work out that way for me. I just end up buying another stripped lower and building a new one. It is nice being able to swap them around though if you want some special configuration.

In my case, I wanted it all. And I wanted to end up with a SBR some day. So I got a Lone Wolf lower that uses Glock mags. I bought all the various parts and sent it all off to Ron Williams.

http://cncgunsparts.com

That takes care of the "abusive to the lower" since RW makes them DI. Short little tube and recoil drops to a very low level. I also wanted a .357 SIG since I have multiple versions of it around the house. And lots of Glock 31 mags. Ron built it as an AR pistol. 9" barrel. LaRue handguard. SSA trigger.

Once he has one built, he tests it by putting in a registered connector and running it full auto. He said it was a lot of fun. And it has always run 100% on every type of bullet. Sure doesn't care if it is JHP.

My plan is to someday go full SBR on it. It is a lot of fun the way it is since you can use the pistol tube as a short stock. But it would be much more "heavy duty" with a proper stock. The way it is right now it is an easy 125 yard chest shot gun. Bring it up, put the red dot where you want it, tap the SSA trigger, easy hit.

I love my AR's. Even the .22 LR versions. The pistol cartridge version is just another sweet idea. I need to get one of the DDLES lowers for full size Glock mags and have Ron build me two more uppers, one in 10mm and one in .45 ACP.

Gregg
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I had a Colt 9mm upper and a RRA upper and after extensive testing on a couple of different registered lowers, there is no way that I would use one for serious defensive purposes loaded with anything other than 124g FMJ rounds. The incidence of stoppage with JHP or any other profile was simply too frequent for duty or defensive use.

I have a 7,62x25mm DI 10.5 upper from Ron and after a bolt issue was resolved (fail to operate from new in box due to bad bolt), it runs like a top. Dirty as all get out due to he cartridge, but reliable enough that I would use it defensively without hesitation.

The 9mm DI conversion would definitely make the battering of the lower less of an issue. The feed issue may have been a result of the Colt and RRA uppers utilizing converted Uzi mags rather than the Glock mags in your custom upper.



Don
 
I vote carbine caliber pistol.

46951d1327295937-22-magnum-compact-semi-auto-.30-carbine-auto-mag..jpg


Automag in .30 carbine.
 
The 10mm is a fine round and I really like it the the Smith & Wesson pistols, but I just don't see it prudent to ramp up a High Point carbine into magnum level cartridge pressures.

The 10mm MP5 is a fantastic PCC, but is out of reach to most everyone due to its Class III status.

For defensive work, a 9mm round delivered from a carbine barrel is likely to be fairly effective at stopping the threat if you are forced into shooting.

Don
 
The mactec 10mm...
That, good sirs, would be one bad dude. Problem is I don't have any glocks laying around so I'd have to buy the glock and conversion. :banghead:

I also like the Rossi 357, but it's a little less desirable for SD. For hunting/woods carry I like it better though.
 
Actually, a .357 lever-action with the right ammunition would be superior to any 9x19mm or .40 for home defense. As I previously explained, with the right bullet, faster rounds penetrate less in tissue or structure, while delivering more decisive effect.

John
 
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Yeah, that's just silly. Even the pros rarely use full-auto except for suppressive fire from crew-served weapons.

John
 
I'd like to have one. Options are just that. Options.

Rambling off 33 rounds of 45ACP every now and then would be fun, but if I were to get a carbine it would be the Glock conversion http://www.mechtechsys.com/index.php, or one of those I posted earlier.
 
Actually, a .357 lever-action with the right ammunition would be superior to any 9x19mm or .40 for home defense. As I previously explained, with the right bullet, faster rounds penetrate less in tissue or structure, while deliverinf more decisive effect.

John
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Exactly. The .357 round is incredibably versitile especially if you reload.

@ OceanBob
Danged if I haven't considered that setup more than once. A 10mm mectec with glock mags is tempting...
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Over at the '10 ring' (10MM forum) we have a Sticky on the Mech-Tech that has some good information available:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1482344

(hope it's ok to post links; if not please delete and my apologies)

Be well,

Bob
 
A civilian is probably never going to need to employ a defensive (or offensive, really) weapon to any range greater than a 9mm or 40cal from a 16 inch barrel would be effective.
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Um,...no. A 5.56X45mm/.223 Rem carbine with proper defensive ammo (non-FMJ) is less likely to penetrate multiple interior walls than a pistol caliber carbine. With the greater effectiveness of the 5.56X45mm/.223 Rem, the pistol caliber carbine loses in comparison.

The only pistol-caliber carbine I have a 20 inch barreled Rossi copy of the '92 Winchester in .45 Colt which is reserved for CAS and short-range hunting (e.g. hogs). I don't need another unless I get a 16 inch barreled .357 Magnum from Rossi or Marlin (If I can find one!), or an H&R/NEF 16 inch single shot. Of course, I'm not considering them as a replacement for a defensive rifle.

ECS
 
The 10mm is a fine round and I really like it the the Smith & Wesson pistols, but I just don't see it prudent to ramp up a High Point carbine into magnum level cartridge pressures.
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10mm is only 37,500 a 40 S&W is 36,000 just FYI.
Actually, a .357 lever-action with the right ammunition would be superior to any 9x19mm or .40 for home defense.
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Love my pistol caliber levers but a 9mm,40s&w or 45acp does little for me. When there are much superior options ballistically like a 30 Carbine and 300 Blackout.
The 300 Blackout is IMHO a lot like the 357 when both are fired from 16" barrels , only with much better down range performance.
 
I'd take a .357 Carbine over the .300, but either is better than .40 or 9x19mm.
 
I'd take a .357 Carbine over the .300
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???????????
While for most any purpose they are suited for I think I'd be perfectly happy with my 1894C, I can't think of a dang thing it does better than my blackout.
 
I am a fan of 357. Love the versatility. I plan to hunt with my 357 Maximum contender this year if I can ever find powder and have money at te same time. Iv done a ton of research on different loadings of the Max, mag, and special and love that a powder puff cast plinking load, a hopped up max velocity hunting load, good factory defensive ammo, and everything in between are possible from the same casing. I believe if I can ever squirrel away enough green il be finding one of the 16 inch Rossi 357s for myself.
 
I like to load the 30-30 down to 2100 fps with a 125 grain FNHP. That has zero recoil, and puts in the the range of a 125 grain .357 from a lever gun. If you hand load just about anything is possible within limits.

I am having a pistol caliber carbine created. A Marlin 336 that shoots 445 Super Mag. How's that for pistol caliber carbine?
 
I have 10mm and .45 ACP MechTech uppers and I am registering my Glock 20 lower as an SBR. I am going to cut the 10mm to the maximum velocity length for 180gr bullets (13.5") and the .45 to as short as I can go and still thread the barrel (velocity of loads that will be subsonic in a carbine are flat from about 10" to 16") and go down significantly beyond 16". Even for light bullets, there is only about 28 fps lost between 11" and 16".

The .45 upper will be primarily for suppressed use.

I have shot several hundred .40S&W rounds through my 10mm and have found no signs of firing out of battery. Observations show the round stripping from the mag and rising behind heavy rifle-like extractor which is stronger than the firing pin and hold the headspace correctly. This gives a very cost-effective shooting option.

Mike
 
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