Talk me out of a PS90.
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W L Johnson
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Depends on which of the factory sights you have
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ratt_finkel
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Sounds like other than personal preference. Or the cost compared to shooting 22lr, no real disadvantages. Well then there's the cost. I must have at least two dozen firearms on my list. But of all the diff platforms. The PS90 is unique. I guess that's why it's calling to me. I think I'll keep holding out.
barnbwt
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Let's not forget the actual cost comparisons here; some of ya'll are talking like the PS90's a SCAR or something 
. They go for about 1200$ on GB, new, all day long. Keep in mind that a CX4 is like 800$ nowadays, a PPSH 900$, a Suomi 600$ or so, and not one of these comes close to offering 50 rounds in a lightweight, highly reliable package. Okay, the Calico might, but those are well over 1000$ if you can find them, have worse mags, and aren't anywhere close to accurate (sights on the mag drum)
People may debate whether the 5.7 pistol offers anything over the competition, but it's not even a question that the PS90 has a number of traits that no one matches yet. I'd buy one, but I'm to busy acquiring parts kits for guns that are no longer made; if the PS90 becomes endangered, I'm all in.
I got my kicks for now by purchasing a cheap Korean knock-off mag for study; neat little gizmo, but they really do need to make a mag-loader for these things (my little piggies is bruised ). I'm also surprised how little force is needed to pop out a round with the system; the spiral basically negates all the additional force a fully loaded mag exerts on the top-most round in a normal mag, so loading/feeding is consistent (even if the first one is a lot harder than the other ). I'm sure it'll go nowhere, but the mag is slated for a MAC-style boxy pistol I have planned with an action based on the Madsen LMG (or Martini Henry)
TCB
. They go for about 1200$ on GB, new, all day long. Keep in mind that a CX4 is like 800$ nowadays, a PPSH 900$, a Suomi 600$ or so, and not one of these comes close to offering 50 rounds in a lightweight, highly reliable package. Okay, the Calico might, but those are well over 1000$ if you can find them, have worse mags, and aren't anywhere close to accurate (sights on the mag drum)People may debate whether the 5.7 pistol offers anything over the competition, but it's not even a question that the PS90 has a number of traits that no one matches yet. I'd buy one, but I'm to busy acquiring parts kits for guns that are no longer made; if the PS90 becomes endangered, I'm all in
.I got my kicks for now by purchasing a cheap Korean knock-off mag for study; neat little gizmo, but they really do need to make a mag-loader for these things (my little piggies is bruised
). I'm also surprised how little force is needed to pop out a round with the system; the spiral basically negates all the additional force a fully loaded mag exerts on the top-most round in a normal mag, so loading/feeding is consistent (even if the first one is a lot harder than the other ). I'm sure it'll go nowhere, but the mag is slated for a MAC-style boxy pistol I have planned with an action based on the Madsen LMG (or Martini Henry)TCB
jason41987
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$600 for a suomi?.. you can get the parts kit for $100 and the receivers a piece of round tube steel, obviously itll take a little work to make it legal, closed bolt, semi automatic.. but yeah, $600 is a ripoff
as for the 5.7x28, ive never been a big fan of it, ammo is pricey, its actually pretty underpowered as well, 400ft/lbs of muzzle energy from a 10" barrel when an average off the shelf 9mm will do that in a four inch barrel and include something like a gold dot bullet.. so for self defensive use its essentially worthless, and though the P90 is an interesting design and i like the firearm its not really interesting enough to me to justify buying one over probably 20 other firearms on my list which are either collectible or have some kind of useful purpose... in short, the P90 would basically just be a toy
a russian PP-19 uses a type of magazine thats not commonly used either and attaches in much the same manner as the P90 mag, only attaches underneath.. now that would be a lot more interesting to own in my opinion if i could get one.. that would be on my list above a p90
as for the 5.7x28, ive never been a big fan of it, ammo is pricey, its actually pretty underpowered as well, 400ft/lbs of muzzle energy from a 10" barrel when an average off the shelf 9mm will do that in a four inch barrel and include something like a gold dot bullet.. so for self defensive use its essentially worthless, and though the P90 is an interesting design and i like the firearm its not really interesting enough to me to justify buying one over probably 20 other firearms on my list which are either collectible or have some kind of useful purpose... in short, the P90 would basically just be a toy
a russian PP-19 uses a type of magazine thats not commonly used either and attaches in much the same manner as the P90 mag, only attaches underneath.. now that would be a lot more interesting to own in my opinion if i could get one.. that would be on my list above a p90
PS90 seems like a decent gun and not that expensive compared to some of the other fun/oddball guns out there. But I've noticed that nobody seems to hang onto their 5-7 pistols, those things are easy to come by used. So I wouldn't buy the PS90 with the idea you're going to consolidate to the same round.
Zhyla (and all others who think this gun is a "fun toy")
I keep a FiveSeven next to me in the couch, in a holster. I keep a PS90 by the bed at night, with a CZ-75 9mm on the nightstand in a holster.
A few years ago, an entire family, including children - were killed, not too far from here. Only the infant survived, although that child was life flighted and in critical condition for a long time. They were bludgeoned to death. After that happened I started keeping a handgun on the nightstand (Glock 21).
A couple years ago a neighbor of mine had a home invasion, where *FIVE* armed intruders came in to her house at 3 AM while her husband was off working third shift. That changed my entire outlook on home defense. Suddenly a Glock 21 didn't seem enough. I've read enough stories of people taking 3-4 shots and not going down. Some simple math ... the capacity of the Glock wasn't enough.
So the 45's and my revolvers got put away (excepting the 38 my wife keeps in the kitchen), and I went with capacity.
With 5 children and several animals in the house, and a complex floor plan, I do NOT need penetration. I need rounds to fragment and stop fast.
The PS90 delivers sufficient penetration to a human, but the light jacketed rounds fragment handily on impact, and don't penetrate obstacles well.
The firearms are incredibly accurate, for what they are - I can shoot the FiveSeven handgun accurately enough to do the job to 50 yards from a two handed isosceles stance, and 100 yards from a rest.
The PS90 I can hit with VERY accurately to 200 yards standing or kneeling, and 300 yards prone. I've won rifle competitions with it. With a tempo of 1/4 second split times I can put 50 of 50 rounds in a 10" circle at 100 yards in 12.5 seconds. Slow down to 1 second a shot I can do the same at 200 yards in a 16" circle. If I really take my time I can shoot a 20 shot 6" group at 200 yards with the factory non-magnified sights. I also shot an F-Class event and scored sharpshooter level scores with the thing prone, slow fire, 20 rounds at 300 yards. (It was meant as a gag, but it turned in to an eye opener).
The rounds will do a lot of damage. There's virtually no recoil from the rifle, and very little from the pistol. All of my kids 10 and up, can use the rifle easily, as can my wife. My two sons, oldest daughter, and wife can all use the handgun without issue.
With the speed and accuracy of these guns, the incredibly fast target acquisition of the PS90, the ease of navigating inside my home with the bullpup design, the "sufficient penetration but not over-penetration" of the round... it's an absolute winner for home defense.
The point I'm making here, is it's not a damn toy.
In my house, both firearms designs are an essential part of my home defense plan.
Shot placement beats bore diameter any day of the week, including Sunday, when your life is at stake.
And I can put shots on target, very accurately, and VERY frigging fast with these guns.
I keep a FiveSeven next to me in the couch, in a holster. I keep a PS90 by the bed at night, with a CZ-75 9mm on the nightstand in a holster.
A few years ago, an entire family, including children - were killed, not too far from here. Only the infant survived, although that child was life flighted and in critical condition for a long time. They were bludgeoned to death. After that happened I started keeping a handgun on the nightstand (Glock 21).
A couple years ago a neighbor of mine had a home invasion, where *FIVE* armed intruders came in to her house at 3 AM while her husband was off working third shift. That changed my entire outlook on home defense. Suddenly a Glock 21 didn't seem enough. I've read enough stories of people taking 3-4 shots and not going down. Some simple math ... the capacity of the Glock wasn't enough.
So the 45's and my revolvers got put away (excepting the 38 my wife keeps in the kitchen), and I went with capacity.
With 5 children and several animals in the house, and a complex floor plan, I do NOT need penetration. I need rounds to fragment and stop fast.
The PS90 delivers sufficient penetration to a human, but the light jacketed rounds fragment handily on impact, and don't penetrate obstacles well.
The firearms are incredibly accurate, for what they are - I can shoot the FiveSeven handgun accurately enough to do the job to 50 yards from a two handed isosceles stance, and 100 yards from a rest.
The PS90 I can hit with VERY accurately to 200 yards standing or kneeling, and 300 yards prone. I've won rifle competitions with it. With a tempo of 1/4 second split times I can put 50 of 50 rounds in a 10" circle at 100 yards in 12.5 seconds. Slow down to 1 second a shot I can do the same at 200 yards in a 16" circle. If I really take my time I can shoot a 20 shot 6" group at 200 yards with the factory non-magnified sights. I also shot an F-Class event and scored sharpshooter level scores with the thing prone, slow fire, 20 rounds at 300 yards. (It was meant as a gag, but it turned in to an eye opener).
The rounds will do a lot of damage. There's virtually no recoil from the rifle, and very little from the pistol. All of my kids 10 and up, can use the rifle easily, as can my wife. My two sons, oldest daughter, and wife can all use the handgun without issue.
With the speed and accuracy of these guns, the incredibly fast target acquisition of the PS90, the ease of navigating inside my home with the bullpup design, the "sufficient penetration but not over-penetration" of the round... it's an absolute winner for home defense.
The point I'm making here, is it's not a damn toy.
In my house, both firearms designs are an essential part of my home defense plan.
Shot placement beats bore diameter any day of the week, including Sunday, when your life is at stake.
And I can put shots on target, very accurately, and VERY frigging fast with these guns.
barnbwt
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More than "a little work," but yeah, that's what they go for (most ask 800$ though
). If you know a buddy with a MIG and a mill, the cost is more like 150$ and 10 man-hours if you're practiced Careful pardner, them's fightin' words
(it's actually been a while since we've had a good 'ol 5.7 knock-down drag-out around here )The Russian PP-19 Bizon is an AK74 blowback pistol-cal conversion with a Calico magazine instead of a banana clip. The designers retained the goofy safety and everything
. The PS90 has a very clever bolt design, clever-er magazine/ejection design, and very efficient FCG configuration. I have always thought the top-mount mag was a weak point, and that it'd be cool to have a version in which the magazine could be slapped into the left or right side at will, switching feeding/ejection automatically in the process And let's not forget this is at housing distances, after all. No need for retention of energy or stabilization at long ranges. No need for momentum (penetration) at all, honestly. That's why so many claim to like 223 for HD, but I've always thought it'd be a bit much to touch one off indoors when something less powerful is just as effective and way faster (fun fact; 5.7x28 is almost exactly half as powerful as 223 by energy numbers)
TCB
baronthered
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Heck if you want one get it. I would like to have one myself but the cash is going other places right now.
jason41987
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so trent, you have a lot of family in your house and neighbors near by so your home defense is a cartridge designed for armor piercing and penetration? and putting shots on a paper target is a hell of a lot easier than putting them on one fighting back so its incredibly optimistic to assume youre going to get that kind of placement... this is why shot guns are so popular for home defense, a single shot center mass with 00 buckshot is going to stop an intruder a hell of a lot quicker than half a magazine of 5.7 and not risk over-penetrating into a neighbors house or through the bedroom walls of a family member
if home defense is the purpose of this PS90, i greatly advise against it, and if the OP is looking for a fun toy he's already admitted theres a lot more on his list worth considering
as for being ambidextrous, you know before everyone got into the tacticool and just had to have a full length rail on top, many of the WWII submachine guns were completely ambidextrous.. magazine in the bottom, ejection out the top, the P90 just did this upside down, magazine up top and ejection out the bottom.. hah, MP40 with a red dot, hell yeah, that could be a fun toy
as for the 5.7 being half as powerful as the .223, a 5.7 generates about 400ft/lbs out of a 10 inch barrel.. are you saying a shorter AR15 will only generate 800ft/lbs at the muzzle?.. and lets not forget, the 5.7x28 was DESIGNED to penetrate through body armor.. can easily go through a person, through a wall where a 9mm, .40S&W, or 45acp is likely to not overpenetrate with a JHP bullet
if home defense is the purpose of this PS90, i greatly advise against it, and if the OP is looking for a fun toy he's already admitted theres a lot more on his list worth considering
as for being ambidextrous, you know before everyone got into the tacticool and just had to have a full length rail on top, many of the WWII submachine guns were completely ambidextrous.. magazine in the bottom, ejection out the top, the P90 just did this upside down, magazine up top and ejection out the bottom.. hah, MP40 with a red dot, hell yeah, that could be a fun toy
as for the 5.7 being half as powerful as the .223, a 5.7 generates about 400ft/lbs out of a 10 inch barrel.. are you saying a shorter AR15 will only generate 800ft/lbs at the muzzle?.. and lets not forget, the 5.7x28 was DESIGNED to penetrate through body armor.. can easily go through a person, through a wall where a 9mm, .40S&W, or 45acp is likely to not overpenetrate with a JHP bullet
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berettashotgun
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The only reason against any 5.7 round chambered firearm IS the 5.7 round.
556/223 w55gr bullet works MUCH better for me and my family.
We don't try and shoot center mass, we trained for the toes first. Let muzzle rise take its course.
When the pistols first came out, my wife considered getting one for a duty carry sidearm; didn't like it for multiple reasons - G17 stayed at her side.
As far as home protection.........I only have 15 rounds in the P14 - just to fight my way back to the shotgun; tungsten goose loads should work just fine
556/223 w55gr bullet works MUCH better for me and my family.
We don't try and shoot center mass, we trained for the toes first. Let muzzle rise take its course.
When the pistols first came out, my wife considered getting one for a duty carry sidearm; didn't like it for multiple reasons - G17 stayed at her side.
As far as home protection.........I only have 15 rounds in the P14 - just to fight my way back to the shotgun; tungsten goose loads should work just fine
ClickClickD'oh
Member
I hardly think Trent is using the military rounds. More likely the civilian rounds, which aren't designed for armor piercing.
Par for the course though. The 5.7 detractors usually show very quickly they don't know what they are talking about.
Case and point.
Looks like this thread is done. The "I don't have a clue what I'm talking about" brigade has shown up.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
00 Buckshot exhibits more penetration through household building materials than lightly constructed .22-ish cailber ~50 grain slugs at high speed.
I'd say Trent has put a lot of careful thought into what he's using and why. Might not be the same thing you'd decide, but you can't say it's because he's uninformed about performance.
The cartridges I use are light jacketed, 40 grain ballistic tip - NOT the solid core armor piercing rounds.
No, it's not optimistic. I train a LOT. And I guarantee you if my life was on the line, my bullets are going where I want them to go. It's no different than any other martial art. You practice the way you fight.
I can't begin to count the hours or rounds I've put down range, but judging by the reloading components and bins of brass in the basement, I've easily put a couple hundred thousand rounds down range in the last 15 years out of handguns.
BULL.
00 buck will penetrate further than 45 ACP, or full power 223 rifle rounds.
You need to do some homework man. You are basing your facts and figures and statistics off of imaginary data. Go look through some ballistic tests, and come back to talk.
While you are welcome to your opinion, your viewpoint is flawed and skewed on bad data. You need to seriously do some homework on this subject before you contribute. Everything you've stated to this point is flat WRONG. No one should take your advice because of that.
Again, your facts are 100% incorrect.
Go look at ballistic tests, bullet composition, and terminal performance of the cartridges then come back for a serious discussion.
I too have wanted to dive into owning a PS90. Only a month or two ago my local gunsmith had one with an aftermarket red dot and was only asking about 1K if I remember right. Would be a nice addition to the collection and make a good companion for the 5.7 pistol I own.
I would seriously consider how much it will cost to feed it though. Ammo seems to be coming back around (for me at least) but with 50 round magazines a box of ammo will go mighty quick at the range. No fun having something that ends up being a paperweight due to ammo cost. Reloading isn't impossible but, as others have already mentioned, it does come with some issues.
If I didn't have so much going on in my life right now though, I probably would have bought the one that I found at the gunsmith and wouldn't have a single regret in doing so.
I would seriously consider how much it will cost to feed it though. Ammo seems to be coming back around (for me at least) but with 50 round magazines a box of ammo will go mighty quick at the range. No fun having something that ends up being a paperweight due to ammo cost. Reloading isn't impossible but, as others have already mentioned, it does come with some issues.
If I didn't have so much going on in my life right now though, I probably would have bought the one that I found at the gunsmith and wouldn't have a single regret in doing so.
Get thee to a store and handle a Tavor.
There ya go...glad I could help!
I've been looking at bullpups for a long time, but there was never enough there to put me over the top until the Tavor came along.
And if you need a pragmatic argument to talk you (or your significant other?) into it, it takes all your AR mags and shoots readily available ammo.
Pragmatic point(s) #2: I plan on putting a silencer on mine, and have been thinking 'bout a SBR, but decided the pragmatic approach would be to get the Tavor since:
1. It's shorter than a SBR AR (unless you get a really short AR).
2. It has a 16" barrel - retains ballistics and easier on a can.
3. Don't have the time & expense of going thru the ATF for a SBR.
4. Don't have to fill out the additional paperwork to carry across the state line (I live in one state, my gun club is just across the line).
There are probably not many people in North America who have put more rounds down range out of a Five Seven or PS90 under as wide of a range of conditions as I have. I'm not saying this to brag or beat my chest, but rather, to emphasize the point that I *have* done my homework here. While I might not be an expert on *every* firearm out there, on this particular one, I know what I'm talking about.
I also have the advantage of comparing real world ballistics and accuracy with over 100 other firearms in my collection.
While I don't have ALL of the "fun toys" at my disposal, I own a large collection, and I have been blessed in that I have spent the better part of the last 2 decades shooting. I've shot everything from 22's, to various shotguns, to a wide variety of full auto machineguns, ranging from MP5's, to M249 SAWs, to Russian PKM's, to heavy machineguns.
So believe me, when it came time to make the decision on what I keep handy for personal protection of my family, I took the decision very seriously. I have over 100 guns to choose from, from my personal collection, and the budget to buy anything I want to buy (period).
When I chose the PS90 for home defense, it was a decision that was made comparing ALL of the factors - my environment, the composition and tactics of the typical group of "bad guys" in the area, and so on. This selection evolved over time as THEY evolved. The bad guys quit knocking off houses in the city in ones and twos, and started going out in the country in bands of 4 or 5 to take down houses.
Why? Because police response time sucks, there aren't any "nosy neighbors" to dial 9-1-1, the isolation means they control the environment, there are multiple ingress/egress points to get them. They've been hitting houses within a few miles all along the Interstate corridor. Whether they're coming from Chicago, or Peoria, or Springfield, I don't know, but the trend is there, and it is a game changer.
*IF* I ever defend myself in court for using lethal force to protect my family, I have the burden of explaining *all* of my decisions on equipment, training, and tactics I used. I have made these decisions with a lot of thought, and a heck of a lot of documentation backs it all up.
So yes, I could have chose anything.
But I chose what I chose for a reason. High capacity, highly accurate, easy to use, ergonomic, incredibly fast time to target and split times, just the right amount of power and penetration, and extremely reliable operation.
Anyway, you can pick what you want to pick within your budget. If the 5.7 platforms are cost prohibitive there are other great ones to choose from - the 9x19 has a LOT of the same merits as these (high capacity, decent but not too much penetration, etc), and is much more affordable.
PS90 not a toy?
Ok, it's not a toy.
I only wish I had the financial freedom to buy one and a supply of ammo. They look to be a fun weapon for shorter ranges ... and at my age, that's about all the farther I can see anyway
Haha! That's... just .. wrong.
As far as shorter ranges.. as I mentioned earlier, the 16" civilian model is plenty accurate out to 200 yards with the factory optics. Which is WAY more than I need for home defense.
I think you misinterpreted my post. I've never handled a PS90 but have no problem with it for home defense. In fact I wouldn't mind getting one for my wife, though we live in CA and the 10 round mags and other restrictions sort of limit the benefits of this gun.
I don't have anything against the FiveSeven either, I was just pointing out that people seem to impulse buy them and for whatever reason (giant grip and small hands?) let them go.
Interesting/tragic stories in your neighborhood. I hope your neighbors have armed themselves as well...
ratt_finkel
Member
Haha, I hear ya! I will get one soon. My fiancé got to play with one that had a tacticool stock and decent scope on it. She loved it. And so did I.
Queen_of_Thunder
member
Forget about the PS90. The ammo is a pain to find and is expensive. Pick up a Tavor in 5.56. You can also later on if you wish switch it over to 5.45 with a barrel change.
76shuvlinoff
Member
Zero experience with the PS90 but years of experience with gun lust.
If you must have it then you will always want it. If you get it and change your mind then peddle it. If you get it and hate it then at least you will have had it and you're over it.
.or go cheap and borrow one then you'll know.
If you must have it then you will always want it. If you get it and change your mind then peddle it. If you get it and hate it then at least you will have had it and you're over it.
.or go cheap and borrow one then you'll know.
jason41987
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a P90s advantage is in being incredibly compact with a high rate of fire, very low recoil and armor piercing capabilities where multiple shots are required.. the civilian one will not have a high rate of fire, wont have the armor piercing capabilities, and with a 16" barrel hanging off the end wont be as compact either.. take all of that away and you might as well not even call it a P90.. might as well just go with a handgun unless you find some way to own a real deal P90 i just dont see the PS90 as anywhere close to what the real thing is designed for
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