10 mm load warning on EAA witness manual..same for Glock 20??

[saturno_v]

I remember that the manual for the EAA Witness that I owned, stated very clearly in block letters to stay away from +p or high velocity high pressure rounds..I called the service dept and I had a chat with their (grumpy is an understatement) gunsmith.
He categorically ruled out Double Tap, Buffalo Bore and Corbon ammo..he said I could crack the slideand the warranty would be voided if they sopt sign of overpressure.
He wasn't even sure (his words) about the Winchester silvertips.. basically he said that I was not supposed to use the original full load spec of the 10 mm Auto but rather the FBI load (40 S&W performance)..so what's the point of having a 10 mm I asked...he didn't have an answer for that

I ask to the Glock 20 owners: Does your manual mentions anything similar?? Glock CS did ever warned you about using full 10 mm loads???

Thanks

 

[RyanM]

SAAMI does not officially recognize 10mm +P, so that may be why. Some companies do make "+P" ammo in calibers where there are no SAAMI specifications. I have a piece of brass marked ".40 S&W +P" around here somewhere.

 

[FEG]

False dilemma. There is no SAAMI +P standard for 10mm. If anyone is advertising "10mm +P," then they are either: 1) falsely advertising; or 2) openly admitting that the ammunition is overpressure and exceeds industry standards. Any company would tell you not to shoot ammunition known to exceed industry pressure standards. It's just a semantics/word game.

The real issue/question is whether or not Double Tap et al. actually exceed SAAMI pressure standards. If not, then the whole point is moot.

 

[saturno_v]

FEG

Interesting comment, but EAA stated clearly non overpressure and non high velocity round.
The high velocity statement is ambiguous, I can have a high velocity round without being overpressure (example, a light bullet).
There is difference in SAAMI pressure specs between the original spec 10 mm Auto load and the reduced FBI load???

 

[MachIVshooter]

If you have one of the models with a rounded slide profile, you may want to limit the amount of hot stuff that goes through it. They have been known to crack.

I have a compact 10mm (squared slide) and a Limited 10mm, and I run both with loads that exceed DT and BB performance. The little compact has digested everything I've thrown at it with no signs of impeding failure. Not too many rounds through the Limited yet, but it also handles my 180 gr./1,400+ FPS loads without issue.

 

[FEG]

There is only one SAAMI standard for 10mm. The old Norma loads are supposed to be close to this maximum pressure standard.

An analogy to the 10mm FBI load would be something like .38 Special FWC target loads. Just because the lighter load exists, doesn't mean that it conforms to some SAAMI category. SAAMI pressures are maximums, not nominal specifications.

A pistol that cannot handle loads near the SAAMI 10mm maximum is by definition defective. What EAA represented is the equivalent of saying: "We mark our pistols 9mm Luger, but you really should only shoot 9mm Glisenti rounds if you want it to actually hold up over time."

I have been in contact with thousands of Tanfolglio owners throughout the world through the CZ Forum over the years. Granted, the 10mm models are among the least common; however, they are fairly common amongst the CZF Membership. I cannot recall anyone having premature wear issues with the 10mm Witness from shooting "real" 10mm. People could very well have, but it is definitely not a common problem. However, Mach IV Shooter just mentioned that the rounded slide models do sometimes have problems, and I have no reason to doubt him.

Basically, EAA has taken CYA to the next level. They are trying to limit their potential warranty liabilities by planting the idea that SAAMI standard 10mm is overpressure. Whether or not ammunition is overpressure is an empirical, verifiable, mathematical fact. To clarify, SAAMI standard for 10mm is 37,500 psi, IIRC. That means a load with a maxium average pressure of 37,501 psi is overpressure. A load with a maxium average pressure of 37,499 psi is within standard. It would be improper in this system to say that it is "high in pressure," because there is no range. A load complies, or it doesn't.

I just came back from looking at the Buffalo Bore website which contains this interesting line:

"These loads bring out the full potential of the 10mm, but operate at standard pressures and as such, are safe to use in any standard 10mm pistol. Please don't phone us and ask if these loads are safe in your 10mm--THEY ARE--provided your 10mm is a normal operating pistol in good condition."

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#10mm

In other words, EAA is probably full of you know what.

 

[saturno_v]

Thanks FEG for your enlighted comment!!!


Yes definitely EAA is very ambiguous about that
You can read their manual here:

http://www.eaacorp.com/Manuals/witness.pdf in the first page.

What "High Velocity, High Pressure" really means?? High pressure compared to what??

Usually a manufacturer warn you specifically about the use of non SAAMI specs for the cartridge or +P means which clearly means over SAAMI specs.

On top of that, their gunsmith warning me specifically against using Corbon, Double Tap or Buffalo Bore which practically are the only full load 10 mm on the market and like you said, they are within SAAMI specs.

Yes my pistol was the rounded slide one, I do not think you can buy the squared one brand new anymore from EAA...I heard all over of cracked slides for the rounded slide Witness when using full loads...

I loved my Witness but EA service is terrible and too much ambiguity about what the pistol can digest comfortably...

Why bother if at the end, You can use it only as a glorified 40 S&W???

I may decide to buy an other 10 mm in the future, but I do not like the Glock 20...

 

[sqlbullet]

Summary:

The manual applies to more than steel 10mm guns. The round slide models (p and p-compact) are no longer offered in 10mm. The 10mm offerings have the square slide (steel frame, p-carry). Shooting standard pressure 10mm (<=37,500 psi) in Witness guns is NOT an issue This includes Double Tap, and probably Corbon and Buffalo Bore.

The verbose details:

Keep in mind this manual is common to both steel and polymer pistols in 9mm, 40S&W, 10mm and 45ACP.

I don't know the history. Currently, the steel frame guns come with the 'square' slide and the polymer come with the round. The poly guns are not offered in 10mm at this time (except the P-carry,which does have the 'square' slide).

This concludes the facts and now we move to my opinions.

10mm ammo is by SAAMI standard a 37,500 psi cartridge. As long as your ammo doesn't exceed this, you are NOT using a 'high pressure' load IMHO. EAA/Tangfolio's recent change away from the weaker slide for the 10mm guns seems to indicate they made a judgement error in shipping that slide with the 10mm in the first place.

Supposedly Mike McNett of Double Tap has stated that their ammo does not acheive it's velocities by exceeding SAAMI spec, but by using powders that maintain pressure better (seems like I read above 12,000 for longer). In other words, a more efficient pressure curve. This makes sense to me, else I fear these mfg's would incur unwanted liability.

I suspect the gunsmith at EAA is under-informed about the 10mm offerings from Corbon, DoubleTap and Buffalo Bore. It would be interesting to see how he replied to the question "Does EAA recommend against any 10mm ammunition that complies with SAAMI pressure standards?".

I would suspect a gun mfg would have a hard time defending a hardware failure in a weapon designated for a caliber that failed while firing ammunition within the SAAMI specifications for that caliber.

I have had no issues with my two EAA Witness guns in 10mm. Therefore I can't speak directly to their customer service. Those I have read about had the following complaints: Grumpy, slow, terse, argumentative. In the vast majority of cases (I can't recall any I have read where they refused repair, but it may have happened) the customer was accused of using 'high pressure' ammo, but the repair was eventually made.

 

[saturno_v]

Sqlbullet

I bought my Witness Steel full size in 10 mm brand new at a gun shop in December (Wife's Christmas gift)
It was just arrived from the distributor (the shop called me to pick it up) so it wasn't in inventory for long time but a rather new production I suspect.
It had the rounded slide

Here is the pic:



I immediately noticed that the top slide was a different style (rounded) compared to their web site pics.

When I called Customer Service about my jamming problems and to ask what kind of ammo I could use, the gunsmith told me that the rounded slide was the "new style' and the the square one has been discontinued.
So where is the truth??

You are right, I should have asked a more formal question: Is the gun rated for SAAMI specs?? Rather than asking about specific ammo brand.

I can confirm all you said about CS and the fact that I had to pay for shipping to and from EAA office was a real deal breaker so I got rid of the gun.

 

[sqlbullet]

Interesting. I bought my standard witness in October....also new dealer stock. I got my Match in December. Both had the squared slide. Big mistake IMHO if they stick with the rounded slide. It is not as attractive or strong. Lighter I suppose.

 

[saturno_v]

...And probably they save a little bit of cost shaving some steel....especially nowdays.....

Actually I didn't mind the look at all....I kinda like it better rounded...