No 10 mm pistol I like or trust...any decent .40 loads for "light" wildlife defense??

[saturno_v]

Yesterday at the Puyallup Gun Show in WA, where I bought my Kel-Tec P-11, I was "fishing" for a 10 mm auto too..
I would like having a reliable 10 for "light" wildlife protection when I hike around the state, the worst you can encounter around here is a big cat or a black bear and there are 10 mm loads, I believe, more than adequate for that purpose...
I would like to avoid carrying my big long barrel 44 Mag, except when there is a possibility to meet something bigger...

Problem is that I cannot find a 10 mm pistol that I like or I can trust.

As many of you probably already know, I had a EAA Witness that gave me frequent jamming problems even after changing the magazine spring and recoil spring (Wolff) and I traded it for my S&W Mod. 29 44 Mag.
EAA Customer Service is horrible and they want me to pay for shipping to and from the service location...I heard of people shipping the gun back and forth many times at their expenses without the issues being resolved..on top of that my gun was the "rounded top" model and I heard from several sources that these slides tend to crack....the EAA gunsmith told me very clearly to do not shoot Buffalo Bore, Double Tap or Corbon (kind of defy the purpose of having a 10 mm IMHO) and he said that the rounded top is the newer model, the squared top (the one that many says are tougher) are not longer produced.

To sum it up, that is not very confidence inspiring to say the least, and it is hard to part with $400 with all these issues..

So yesterday the only 10 mm I could find were the EAA Witness rounded top like mine or the Glocks 20.....I could have get one of the 20 NIB for 450 after negotiation...I just "cannot" like Glocks...I tried them, just a funny feeling, I do not like pistols only DA, with polymer frames and no external hammer...I really cannot convince myself about buying one....I just got the P-11 because my main motivation for this purchase was the "pocketability"..so I had no much choice for that but I do not plan to shoot the P-11 that much anyway....is an emergency gun

There are really any other choices, reasonably priced in 10 mm??? I saw no Delta Elite at all for example at the show, and I heard that they can crack the slides too by the way....

So, in the end, there are any .40 loads with decent power to deal with big cats and blackies??? Buffalo Bore offer a load with some decent numbers (well over 600 ft/lb)...

I could use them in my Thunder .40 and forget forget my 10 mm love story.....

Suggestions or comments??

Thank you!!!

 

[kx250kev]

I feel your pain. I've been trying to find that perfect lightweight backpacking defense gun, but it's not easy. (I also personally don't like the Glocks.) I've settled on a .40 cal polymer pistol with double action fire capability and no safety and ideally a decocker for hammer down open carry. After some penetration testing with my .40 , I'm convinced that it would be adaquate for bear/cougar defense at distances up to 50ft.

I also prefer a double action trigger allows a second attempt if the round doesn't fire the first time. I know what some are thinking...why not a large caliber revolver like a Ruger .454 Casull? Had one, and it was like carrying around a cinder block. It was much too heavy, and with one shot (deer hunting 3 years ago), I managed SIGNIFICANT hearing loss in my left ear, not to mention CONSTANT ringing (aka Tinitus). A revolver is a more dependable gun, but 5 or 6 shots is not enough in my opinion. Trying to get any of those .454 shots on target would have been impossible for me with that massive recoil. If you are defending yourself from a large animal, you DO want to throw a lot of lead quickly, and you want them well placed.

State parks (in WI) will let you possess a gun if it is unloaded and cased. A revolver is just too slow to load in an emergency, but a pistol is pretty damn quick. Slap in a mag, rack and shoot. I also like to attach a light to the light rail and sleep with it "ready to roll" incase something goes BUMP in the night. I'm pretty satisfied that .40 FMJ would penetrate the skull of a bear at 50 ft. The .40 also gives you about 10-12 shots which is better than a revolver.

Technically, my penetration testing with my 9mm and FMJ rounds out performed my .40 and .45, plus you get 15 to 17 shots, but I'd feel safer with the ballistics of a .40 cal and a 4" or greater barrel (which performs similar to a .357 out to 100 yards). I'd also worry about the round nose of the 9mm FMJ glancing off the beasts skull rather than penetrating.

 

[jdh]

Kimber is doing a couple flavors of the 10mm. Stainless Target II is one.

 

[lee n. field]

S&W 610, perhaps?

 

[wow6599]

Answer?

Try this out - http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_26&products_id=210 - thinking of trying them in my S&W M&P40 for the same reasons. They look like they would do the job, but I wouldn't use them through a small or cheap .40 pistol.

 

[jmr40]

I say give the Glock a chance. I used to feel the same way until I ran across a good deal on a used Glock and decided to see what excitement was all about. Glocks are just what they are and I doubt anyone truly loves them like a 1911 or a nice Smith or Colt revolver but most who try them learn to respect them.

I own several now and the 10 mm is my favorite.

 

[saturno_v]

If I have to carry a revolver, I would rather carry my 44 Mag and be done with it.
My Bersa Thunder .40 is full size (barrel lenght 4.3") very tough construction and it would digest pretty much any .40 rounds, people used the Double Tap ammo with no problems at all...

 

[kx250kev]

Revolvers are typically just too heavy for serious hiking. Every ounce really does count. The exception might be the S&W Airlight frames.

 

[saturno_v]

I'm not that "serious" hiker myself at least not on a regular basis....I like my occasional couple of hours...

 

[86thecat]

Haven't tried them yet but Sierra's 10mm/40 cal Tournamentmaster 190 gn is a soft point. If you reload this may do the trick. I'm carrying a Glock 20 in 10mm with Cor-Bon softpoints as my light woods pistol, called in a bear while scouting for turkeys and it felt like a toy. (Beautiful blonde bear which was very suprised when I said "boo" at 30 feet.)


Here is a review from Midway's site (not mine):
I originally purchased these bullets to use as a deep penetration load for black bear/mountain lion while out in the local hills. I worked up a .40 S&W load with Blue Dot but I haven't chronographed it yet. I carry this gun (Glock 23) everywhere which is why I wanted to use the load for this purpose. Sierra states that this bullet in whatever caliber you get it in is intended for just this purpose, plus metallic silhouettes. Haven't shot it into anything to test the penetration, however the accuracy is outstanding, even from a Glock. Careful with loading in .40 as the bullet will occupy more of the case if you run a standard OAL for your loads.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Besides the Glocks, I'd say give the Dan Wesson 10mm 1911s a look. My commander-size Classic Bobtail is my usual woods gun, and I've been quite happy with it. Never had occasion to draw it while hiking and camping, but it's run flawlessly out on the range.

I did beef up the recoil spring two pounds before starting to run the hotter double tap loads through it, and with the heavier spring it feels about identical to a 45 cal, except when running Double Tap's 200 grain hard cast lead or their 230 grain "Equalizer," which does feel a bit stouter than a normal 45 load.

 

[nitestocker]

i just got rid of my redhawk becouse it was to big and heavy i traded it for a glock 29 i took it shooting with one of the guys from church friday i shot a box of 180 gr. double tap though it very nice little gun its my every day carry now selling my cz40p with laser grips i like this better of corse when it gets hot its back to the snubbie in the mika i did not like the triggers on the glocks my self but this one has a after market trigger and i love this pistol great little woods gun

 

[Sturmgewher]

10mm and forties on bears?! Heres the real deal on what makes an effective bear stopper. Penetration. Hard cast bullets moving at sufficient velocities to pentrate thick hide and heavy muscle. You ain't gonna get that out of a 10mm or it's heir apparant, the .40. And I don't care how many times you punch through 18 inches of ordinance gel with your pet load, you ain't stopping a bear with an auto pistol designed to drop humans. A .44, .454, .500 is your best bet, and yeah they are heavy, but think about it. IT'S A FREAKIN' BEAR!!! I'd want the biggest lead slinger I could lay my mits on and I'll hire someone to tote it for me if I have to. AND a pistol is a last resort. That is to say the thing is about to eat your face and you are gonna jam the muzzle in its mouth and yank the bang lever 'til one of you is dead, dead, dead.

 

[saturno_v]

Sturmgewher

I'm not talking about a grizzly here but a small medium blackie or a big cat...that's all you can encounter around here..

I heard of proper 10 mm loads stopping a small/medium black bear..

 

[86thecat]

I would always rather have my 454 Super Redhawk in the woods but it's not always possible. Instead of going unarmed the 10mm goes along, in a shoulder holster hidden away for emergencies. A 10 up the nose would be a far better stopper than harsh language but I wouldn't depend on a body shot to work. Also most of the bear where I hike are small compared to an Alaskan Grizzley.

 

[saturno_v]

I think I have to bite the bullet (no pun intended ) and carry my big 44 in the woods...you never know...

 

[Idano]

I am with Sturmgewher and 86thecat if your hiking pack something that will do the job. I can tell you from personal experience there won't be a second shot when it comes to a charging bear. When I shot my black bear with my 7-1/2" Colt Anaconda I caught him in my peripheral view at 100 yards running toward me and by the time I pulled my pistol and fired I dropped him at forty yards. I am glad I dropped him on the first shot or else he would have hit me before I would have gotten a second shot off.

 

[saturno_v]

Idano what load did you use?? I'm impressed you dropped him at first shot...How big was the bear?? Where did you hit him??
I have a S&W Mod 29 with 8 3/8" barrel...

 

[Sturmgewher]

Her's a bear story for you that is alleged to be true, but who knows...

An Alaskan bush pilot/fishing guide drops off a client on a small island for a little trout fishing. Apon exiting the plane the guide offers our hero a suitably large firearm for defense against the bruins known to be in the area. Our hero decides to place political correctness over saftey and bravely declines the weapon at which time the pilot offers a canister about the size of a small fire extinguisher. He tells his client the container is bear repellent and our anti-gun pro-stupid hero gratefully accepts the cannister.
As the pilot takes off and circles the island to gain altitude he notices his client already in the water fighting with what must be a hoss of a trout. Sure he has a return customer the pilot returns to base.
Now we find the pilot returning to the isalnd in the late afternoon to find a very unhappy client with what appears to be a sunburn and no fish. The pilot makes inquiry as to our heros luck, who immedietly launches into a tirade about how the pilots bear repellent nearly took off his hide. Seems our erstwhile hero had sprayed himself with a high concentration of OC spray from the canister proffered by the plot. I'm sure we are all glad he didn't accept the gun as he lacked the sense to read the canister before applying his "bear repellent".

 

[Desertscout]

The G20 is the only thing that has the accuracy, reliability, lightweight and capacity that I want for a woods gun and is the only thing that I can recommend in good conscience.
I've taken quite a few animals with my G20 and I have utter confidence in it.
There are other decent guns out there but, AFAIC, anything else is 2nd best.

 

[CZF]

Would be my choice in .40 for animal defense:

http://www.angelfire.com/amiga/hakan/DOUBLETAP40.html

 

[jeepmor]

S&W 1076. I know your witness woes, I own one of those POS's myself. I now own and S&W 1076 and it has not given me a single problem. It's not a light gun as it is service sized, but it is lighter than my Witness. Also, it seems to flip the muzzle quite a bit less too.

I know you're not talking about a Big Brown bear, your talking about the lower 48 in the Cascades or Coast range. Armchair warriors being as they are, rarely really understand this issue, and they rarely get off their duffs and do any real hiking. However, jib-jabbing aside, we have a real first person encounter in this thread, so keep that in mind. I'm sticking with my 10mm myself. If I feel I need something more, I'll carry a rifle or short shotgun.

I wouldn't worry too much, you really don't need a gun hiking if you're mindful of what you're doing. I've been hiking the PNW for over 10 years and have only seen one bear. I was much more concerned when a Momma and two cubs came through camp to check out our picnic table when I was camping 15 years ago.

As for the DoubleTap suggestion. I agree, however, use a solid bullet for penetration, a mushrooming handgun bullet is not the best choice. This is why you see the hardcast suggestions. A 10mm WFNGC from DoubleTap is what I carry in my woods gun.

 

[CZ-100]

I have taken many of Hogs with my 10mm (Colt Delta Elite), But I just do not know about a Bear, I think I would want something Bigger

 

[Dilbert]

10mm 1911

The best looking 10mm 1911's out there right now seem to be coming from,
www.fusionfirearms.com
But that's just my opinion.

 

[jmr40]

I have complete confidence that the Doubletap 200 grain hardcast at 1300 fps from my Glock 10 mm will completely penetrate the typical black bear. If in grizzly country I would reccomend the big bore revolvers but would still feel pretty well armed with this load and gun.

The way I see it you are far more likely to actually need your gun for 2 legged predators and feel the Glock 10 mm is the best compromise. Mine is loaded with 155 grain hollowpoints right up until I get away from the trail head then I switch magazines to the hot loaded hardcast ammo while in the woods.