100 Arrested at Wal-Mart Construction

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Hey, what language is that? Doesn't look like english to me...a bit ironic, don't you think, citing a wise and ancient motto that is in another language to support the idea that english only is the way to go?
The language isn’t as important as the belief behind the motto "Out of many, one."

I have a number of reasons I’m boycotting illegal aliens/certain businesses. It has nothing to do with race, sex, skin color or even their native tongue.

I cannot in good conscious turn my back on the members of my community in order to save a buck. Large businesses come and go every day just like day workers, migrants and illegal aliens, but communities are like extended family and we all know blood is thicker than water. Communities are E pluribus unum, and I have no need for those who don’t respect it.
 
I personally know many illegals and their children who have been more successful and are more "American" than many born here and they can't speak a word of english.
If they're American, then they're American criminals and need to be dealt with as such.
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R.H. Lee said:
Government at all levels caters to non English speaking people, providing them services in their native language. It's expensive, devisive, and unnecessary. Furthermore, it relegates them to second class citizenship, which is racist. Here's what Theodore Roosevelt had to say, a hundred years ago:

"Every immigrant who comes here should be required within five years to learn English or leave the country. "

"There is no place for the hyphen in our citizenship... We are a nation, not a hodge-podge of foreign nationalities. We are a people, and not a polyglot boarding house."

You forgot to mention that Roosevelt supported a large portion of government funds going towards educating immigrants. So what you say is "expensive, devisive, and unnecessary" is actually Roosevelt's idea.

Do you also believe that the government knows what is best in how an individual should act, speak and interact in society? Such a position only supports the governments medling into the private citizen's life to conform them into a single "sheep-like" identity. Such actions are a blatent denial of the constitutional rights afforded all people. Or is it ok to limit Constitutional Rights based upon a belief of the goverment of what is best for the county?

Roosevelt knew it was not American to limit ones Constitutional rights. In that same speach, Roosevelt contradicted the above quote and enforced the idea that the Constitution applies to all persons:

"Moreover, we have as little use for people who carry religious prejudices into our politics as for those who carry prejudices of caste or nationality...We demand that all citizens, Protestant and Catholic, Jew and Gentile, shall have fair treatment in every way; that all alike shall have their rights guaranteed them...

In short, Roosevelt suported very liberal immigration policies with government funding in education for immigrants.

If they're American, [sic] then they're American criminals and need to be dealt with as such.

Illegally entering the USA is a misdeamenor. Employing an undocumented worked is a felony. Let's start by going after the employers - the true felons. You know, all those nice english speaking "Americans." I'm sure you know a contractor or two. Why don't you go report 'em?
 
IMO, focusing on english only is focusing on all the wrong details. Wanting to work hard, not bother others, and respect freedom are much, much more important in my view to being an American than learning english. If a guy can say in any language that he supports individual rights and hard work, I'm more than happy to welcome him to America.

I think we'd have more allies in the pro gun community if we took the effort to recognize the political potential that immigrants, mostly coming from more conservative places than the average american city, can offer, even if they don't speak english.

Coming to America without English is one thing, staying here without English is another. Citizenship is supposed to require a modicum of English fluency, last time I heard. The idea is to forge a community, that's right, and language is the primary vehicle for effecting social cohesion.

As for "E pluribus unum," that's very cute, Shootinstudent, but of course off the point relating to today's cultural fragmentation.
 
liberty911: You forgot to mention that Roosevelt supported a large portion of government funds going towards educating immigrants. So what you say is "expensive, devisive, and unnecessary" is actually Roosevelt's idea.
I'm not sure exactly what your point is. The current administration, and all administrations back to LBJ supported a 'large portion of government funds going towards educating migrants.' The difference between Roosevelt's policy and current policy is that Roosevelt was interested in legal immigrants becoming Americans. Part of being an American is fluency in English.

Do you also believe that the government knows what is best in how an individual should act, speak and interact in society? Such a position only supports the governments medling into the private citizen's life to conform them into a single "sheep-like" identity.
Again, what's yer point? First, government reflects the will of, indeed, government is the people. Secondly, you refer to 'citizens'. I would submit that many non English speaking people in this country are in fact not citizens, and have no interest in this country other than what benefits it is willing to provide them.

Such actions are a blatent denial of the constitutional rights afforded all people. Or is it ok to limit Constitutional Rights based upon a belief of the goverment of what is best for the county?
Where in the Constitution is the right to bilingual/multilingual services guaranteed?

Roosevelt knew it was not American to limit ones Constitutional rights. In that same speach, Roosevelt contradicted the above quote and enforced the idea that the Constitution applies to all persons:


Quote:
"Moreover, we have as little use for people who carry religious prejudices into our politics as for those who carry prejudices of caste or nationality...We demand that all citizens, Protestant and Catholic, Jew and Gentile, shall have fair treatment in every way; that all alike shall have their rights guaranteed them...

You're going to have to explain how not catering to non English speaking people equates to 'religious prejudice'.
 
liberty911

Entering the US illegally *may* be a misdemeanor the first time, but it is a felony the second, and we should hang the employers also.
Biker
 
First, let me state I am a strict constructionalist, much like Justice Scalia. However, I do not take language out of context, which brings me to the critisims of those who missinterpret Roosevelt's speach.

Roosevelet was concerned with Communism which threatened the freedoms and liberties afforded the American people. To wit:

There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...[.]"
(Theodore Roosevelt, 1907)

The speach did not address illegal or legal immigration. It addressed unifying a nation undert the liberties and freedoms of our Constitution. His fear was the threat of a political ideology - communism, not immigrants who come to this country for a better life.

Entering the US illegally *may* be a misdemeanor the first time, but it is a felony the second, and we should hang the employers also.

+1 on hanging the employer. I actually do that for a living.
As for the felony, it assumes a first conviction. It is therefore irrelevant unless you adsress a specific person. The is also a myriad of other possibilities to legally residing in the US which do not require US citizenship and do not require English proficiency. Just because a person does not speak English does not mean he is lillegally in the county. Any such person who does not speak English could be, for example, on legal permanent resident, fiance, asylee, under diversity citizenry, a resident before '72, a resident before '96, parental LPR status, or a spouse LPR status, just to name a few. Jumping to the conclusion that English is required to legally reside in the US merely demonstrates an individual's ignorance on the law.


I'm not sure exactly what your point is. The current administration, and all administrations back to LBJ supported a 'large portion of government funds going towards educating migrants.' The difference between Roosevelt's policy and current policy is that Roosevelt was interested in legal immigrants becoming Americans. Part of being an American is fluency in English.

Roosevelt was interested in preventing the spead of communism, not illegal v. illegal immigration.

It was not until 1921 that any limites on who could enter the US were made. The 1921 Emergency Quota Act restricted immigration by setting limits based on the number of foreign-born people already in the country in 1910. And it was not until 1920 that Congress passes a new and more restrictive immigration law with quotas are now set at only 2 percent of existing nationalities in the U.S. in 1920, and Japanese immigration is suspended. Again the threat is political ideology, not a single english speaking population. The Literacy in Elglish Act was not implimented until 1917 (and does not even apply to the "legal residency requirements"). None of these Acts were in place at the time of Roosevelt and therefore cannot be considered in connection with his statement. There simply were no legal or illegal immigrants since everyone could legally immigrate. There simply were no restictions. The government spending was recommended by Roosevelt regardless of immigration status. Roosevelt did not take into consideration illegal v. legal immigration becasue it simply did not exist.

Moreover, the only language requirements for citizenship are simple everyday language. No one is required to speak english on a day to day business, and no such requirement was ever suggested. Nor could such a suggestion withstand Constitutional scrutiny under that most rational basis argument of the 1st Amendment.

Where in the Constitution is the right to bilingual/multilingual services guaranteed?

1st and 14th to the extent any other service is "guaranteed."

You're going to have to explain how not catering to non English speaking people equates to 'religious prejudice'.

You focus on the wrong word ("religion") and miss the intended meaning of the statement and Roosevelt's speach. The quote states:

we have as little use for people who carry religious prejudices into our politics as for those who carry prejudices of caste or nationality...We demand that all citizens, Protestant and Catholic, Jew and Gentile, shall have fair treatment in every way; that all alike shall have their rights guaranteed them...

It is pretty straight forward. All persons regardless of nationality are entitled to all rights guaranteed them. Ther ewere no roadblocks as to "citizenry" and illegal and legal immigration. Roosevelt knew the difference between English speaking citizens and other "nationalities". Obviously the other nationalities specifically included those who are not American citizens.

With all this, please someone tell me how anyone can conclusively determine who is and who is not legally entitled to be in the USA because they look a certain way or speak in a certain language.
 
liberty911 said:
Do you also believe that the government knows what is best in how an individual should act, speak and interact in society? Such a position only supports the governments medling into the private citizen's life to conform them into a single "sheep-like" identity. Such actions are a blatent denial of the constitutional rights afforded all people. Or is it ok to limit Constitutional Rights based upon a belief of the goverment of what is best for the county?
Woo slow down there, I don’t think anyone is advocating an overbearing intrusive government. Nor has anyone suggested that immagrants should surrender their culture or heritage to conform “into a single "sheep-like" identity”.

liberty911 said:
With all this, please someone tell me how anyone can conclusively determine who is and who is not legally entitled to be in the USA because they look a certain way or speak in a certain language.
Well normally you can’t tell by looks or language. Good question, but its late and I’m tired. I will say legal entitled looses its meaning when you have thousands of displaced and unemployed longtime residence undercut by low wage importees.

My policy is if you don't speak English, I don't do business with you.
It seems like everyone jumped on this statement as racial. I can’t speak for R.H. Lee, but the way I see it, it’s just bad business to do business with someone you can’t even communicate with. Secondly as Longeyes pointed out, English is and has been the predominate language in the United States for howlong. You also have to consider we’re not talking about a few isolated incidents and by no means should all illegal aliens, migrant workers, day labors or other descriptiors be group into one category (I know I’m often guilty of this).

I used to be skeptical and even critical of border stories, not any more. Yea I’m 1500 miles away yet the stories are now being acted out in our streets.


longeyes said:
Coming to America without English is one thing, staying here without English is another. Citizenship is supposed to require a modicum of English fluency, last time I heard. The idea is to forge a community, that's right, and language is the primary vehicle for effecting social cohesion.
I see you beat me to it, then again you already said it with E pluribus unum.
 
Funny-odd about this bi-lingual nonsense. My grandfather solved the problem in the late 1940s at Metz elementary school in Austintatious. With the cooperation/approval of the PTA and the School Board, the Mexican kids stayed with the same bi-lingual teacher for the first three years. They were then tested, and those not yet fluent in English had a more intense effort focussed upon them.

The success rate was some 96% of the kids going on to junior high with adequate English language skills. No extra money, no consultants had been needed.

But he retired and the Board and Superintendant changed, and it was all forgotten...

Another funny-odd: During her Gubernatorial campaign, I brought this up with Ann Richards. Her handwritten response was rather plaintive: "Art, you're right--but what can we do?" The NEA claque has too much political power, and those who create problems can never be the ones to solve them.

Art
 
liberty911 said: Roosevelt knew it was not American to limit ones Constitutional rights. In that same speach, Roosevelt contradicted the above quote and enforced the idea that the Constitution applies to all persons:


Quote:
"Moreover, we have as little use for people who carry religious prejudices into our politics as for those who carry prejudices of caste or nationality...We demand that all citizens, Protestant and Catholic, Jew and Gentile, shall have fair treatment in every way; that all alike shall have their rights guaranteed them...



In short, Roosevelt suported very liberal immigration policies with government funding in education for immigrants.
That may be your opinion, but it's at variance with his statements to Secretary of State Knox (under President Taft)
The events of the last three years have forced me to the clear understanding that our people will not permit the Japanese to come in large numbers among them; will not accept them as citizens; will not tolerate their presence as large bodies of permanent settlers.............
To permit the Japanese to come in large numbers into this country would be to cause a race problem and invite and insure a race contest. It is necessary to keep them out...............We are therefore faced by the fact that our people will not tolerate, and ought not to tolerate, the presence among them of large bodies of Japanese........

In 1915, Theodore Roosevelt made these statements regarding 'Americanization'
The foreign-born population of this country must be an Americanized population - no other kind can fight the battles of America either in war or peace. It must talk the language of its native-born fellow-citizens, it must possess American citizenship and American ideals.
and
... There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.....a hyphenated American is not an American at all..........Americanism is a matter of the spirit and of the soul. Our allegiance must be purely to the United States. We must unsparingly condemn any man who holds any other allegiance.........

Oh, and then you quoted Roosevelt, but conveniently left out the next sentence which I've added for you in red
There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...[.]" We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
Yeah, you stopped quoting when you read that, didn't you?


liberty911:Roosevelt did not take into consideration illegal v. legal immigration becasue it simply did not exist.
Nor did the tortured legal 'logic' that the 1st & 14th guarantee multilingual services.

Clearly, Roosevelt was a proponent of Americanization which is predicated on the ability to speaking English.
 
avpro said:
How about getting rid of the demand for illegals. Seems to me that there are a lot of people in the welfare class that are able to work. If the welfare system was abolished, then the market would have more legals looking for work. If it meant that work was the only way they could feed themselves, I'm sure they would push the illegals out of the market.

Lots of those people from New Orleans looked like they could work if they had to.
That's the most sensible comment in this entire thread.

"The black market is morally superior to those who make it necessary." I forget who said that, but it's the perfect synopsis of the illegal immigration problem.
 
will not tolerate their presence as large bodies of permanent settlers.............
To permit the Japanese to come in large numbers into this country would be to cause a race problem and invite and insure a race contest.

Roosevelt was a racist. Simple. And he is addressing the Japanese. Japanese COMMUNIST! His sentiments are nothing to be proud of these days as it merely demonstrates ignorance. Yes, Roosevelt was ignorant by todays standards. . . but he was normal for a rich, white male in 1900. A rational mind 100 years later cannot think that this is intelligent statement today. The Supreme Court has disagreed hundrends upon hundreds of times to such hogwash based arguments.

In 1915, Theodore Roosevelt made these statements regarding 'Americanization'
Quote:
The foreign-born population of this country must be an Americanized population - no other kind can fight the battles of America either in war or peace. It must talk the language of its native-born fellow-citizens, it must possess American citizenship and American ideals.

But where does it say ONLY english is permitted. And tell me how it is impossible to posses American ideals and not discuss them in English? Re-read my prior post. Only English literacy is required for citizenship. As for legal residence status (many examples are cited above) literacy in English is notrequired. So English as a language is moot to be in the USA legally. Speaking English is irrelevant to the beliefs of freedom and liberty that embody this country. Does the English language possess some sort of magical quality that will only permit the discussion of the American liberties and freedoms contained in our constitution? Of course not. So speaking English has no bearing whatsoever on the abilty to appreciate, believe in, and live according to the spirt of the freedoms granted in the USA. Discounting a person because you only heard them speak in a foreign language only embraces the 1900 mindset of ignorance of America. During the time Roosevelt made his statements woman couldn't vote and blacks couldn't even drink from the same water fountain. Have you given any consideration into the mindset of the man making the statement?

Yeah, you stopped quoting when you read that, didn't you?

Re-read my post. i READ IT. It is irrelevant to this issue ( and really every other issue.) I pointed out that Roosevelt was addressing Communisim and the threats it had to the freedoms and liberties afforded the American people. I think everyone can agree that language has no bearing on the ideology of communism. You can be a communist and speak English, Mandarine Chinese, Russian or Spanish. Nonetheless, Roosevelt's statement does nothing to support the issue so there is no reason to address it. The quote is fatally flawed in the eed of your argument as it fails to bear any relevance to the fact Roosevelt was discussing communism and not illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants simply did not exist, so he could not have been addressing the topic.

Clearly, Roosevelt was a proponent of Americanization which is predicated on the ability to speaking English.

Yes, as a racist, Roosevelt did embody the American ideals. The ideals of the rich white male in 1900. Before Roosevelt our fore fathers also owned slaves. Should slavery be legal today? And yes, citizenship is predicated on the abiltity to speak day-to-day English. But you missed my point in the prior post. There is a myriad of exceptions to being legally in this country and not having to speak English proficiently. So tell me how can you tell who is legally in this country and who is not? And in doing so how can anyone rationally say they are boycoting a business simply because someone choices not to speak English?
 
Headless Thompson Gunner said:
That's the most sensible comment in this entire thread.

If people on welfare wanted to work they would. Many do not. And you better beleive they would not take any job a immigrant is currently working. It's probably one of the more ignorant statements in this thread.
 
mindpilot said:
I bought a gun at Walmart, Mossberg 500 youth 20 ga ($149) and Clearanced Gerber Chameleon (still USA Made) and a gun safe Sentry and case, but the dude rang the gun and knife at the sporting goods counter and I had other shopping to do and at the front they only rang my milk and eggs. I got a Sentry Safe ($59.99) and Gun case ($21.99) for free. She musta figured it got rang in Sporting goods I guess. Didnt notice til I got in the car, but I figure the THOUSANDS I spend at Walmart a year....heh...I'll sleep just fine at at nite. :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener:
At the risk of accelerating thread drift, I'll ask you not to brag about stealing property any more. That's not exactly THR behavior. :scrutiny:

TC
 
liberty911 said:
If people on welfare wanted to work they would. Many do not. And you better beleive they would not take any job a immigrant is currently working. It's probably one of the more ignorant statements in this thread.
I disagree. If we eliminate welfare, hunger will provide all the incentive they need to get a job.

Given the choice between freeloading and scrubbing toilets, most choose to freeload. Given the choice between starving and scrubing toilets, I think most would start scrubbing.

Fact is, we create the welfare class by making freeloading more appealing than working honest jobs. That's unspeakably WRONG!

So what's our solution? We pay off the locals who refuse to earn their keep. Then we prosecute those who gave up their homes and families, risked their lives and broke the law, just for the opportunity to earn their living.

How much sense does this make???
 
Sheldon J said:
a few personal thoughts on the above.
1. Only the children born of legal aliens should be allowed automatic citizenship
2. Allowing for the above any alien that is in the US for more than 5 years with out gaining citizenship will be deported to their native country
3. Fluency in the English language should be required inorder to become a US citizen.
We need to take back the United States Of Amercia from the cry baby feel sorry for every one else liberals.

Not sure where you going with #2. I used to work for a woman who spent 30 years in US as a permanent resident (green card holder). She never gave up her Canadian citizenship, yet she ran her business here. Why would you ship her back to Canada after 5 years?
 
The whole concept of an "illegal worker" is laughably absurd. How any theoretically freedom-loving person can support requiring government permission to earn money leaves me speechless. As does the idea that a Mexican working cheap is somehow unfair to an American union worker. I'm sorry, but clearly the market doesn't support $15 or $20 or whatever hourly wage they are demanding for basic manual labor. If they really are skilled tradesman, then perhaps they should look for work that requires finesse, instead of building WalMarts.

The bottom line is that Mexicans often do equal better work for cheaper prices than Americans. Live with it. Maybe American workers should grow a better work ethic, or learn their trades better so that they have a qualitative advantage over their competition.

As for language, I can't herlp but notice that we have an awful lot of Indians in the US who don't speak English. Yee-ha, boot em out! The Dine don't conform like good little citizens, so why should we let them stay? The government owns the country, right? Durn ferriners...

:barf:
 
Ian, there always has been and always will be work for unskilled or semi-skilled "pick-up" labor. The very nature of that work is what has been the start for teenagers and/or dropouts. Our welfare system pays about as well as entry-level work, which is why there is a demand for the illegals.

As far as wage scales, at a little mom/pop grocery in south Georgia I regularly see illegals cashing paychecks for some $400 take-home per week. I dunno if that's incentive enough for somebody to get off the welfare wagon.

Art
 
any examples are cited above) literacy in English is notrequired. So English as a language is moot to be in the USA legally. Speaking English is irrelevant to the beliefs of freedom and liberty that embody this country. Does the English language possess some sort of magical quality that will only permit the discussion of the American liberties and freedoms contained in our constitution?

The "magical quality" resides in the fact that we are a nation of law and our laws are written in English. The nuances of those laws so often debated are grounded in the English language and the historic context in which those words--in English--were used.

It's also obvious enough that English is the cultural glue of this society. Fluency in other languages is a fine thing, to be encouraged for communication and pleasure, but if we are to remain a single society we need to not erect barriers at the most fundamental level. This is certainly true at the level of voting and jurisprudence.
 
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