10mm vs .45 ACP in a Glock

[10mm]

Thank you for the welcome. The 28 rd are on gunbroker and similar sites. They are somewhat hard to come by due to the demand, but I know a few places locally (South, FL) have had them in at points (while the lasted), and I see them from time to time resurface.

As for the original thread: The .45 has alot going for it. Its a predictible manstopper with a proven track record, I just seem to favor the 10mm. I also want a G30/G36, but not becaue the 10mm has let me down...I just want both. The recoil between the two calibers is different, but does not hinder my target acquisition for follow up shots any more or less. Obviously if I step down to a 9mm or .380 there is a difference, but between the .45 and 10mm it is negligible. Both will make huge wound channels and have plenty of "knock down" power. I just feel safer knowing that if I need to shoot through glass or thick clothing or obstructions, that I have the best chance of doing so with a 10mm. Either way I wouldnt hunt with them: handgun + bear = wounded angry bear ...not something I ever want to see...thats why we have long guns & bear traps!

Getting shot with either is deadly. Its like comparing a Camaro and a Trans Am. Both similar under the hood, just minor differences to the positive and negative. Taking either car as your daily driver is good enough to keep up with whatever is called for...and then some...with these two glocks (calibers) I feel the same way.

PS: For "Ultimate-Ratio" if we are talking super calibers, dont forget the 10mm Magnum in that comparison...lets not compare apples to oranges!

 

[Mikul]

I've done excessive thinking on the 10mm and finally came to the conclusion that what you really need is enough penetration to hit something vital. 10mm, .45, .357, and .40 all have more than enough penetration. Beyond penetration, wider is better. It seems no matter how you look at it, .45 ACP wins.

 

[mjb]

Some of you have forgotten about the hot 10mm rounds. Texas Ammunition makes 10mm rounds at about 7oo ft lbs. Winchester Silvertip and Cor-Bon 135 gr are also as hot as the .41 Mag. I know there are hunting rounds for the .41 Mag that are even hotter, but with the right ammo, the 10mm does go into the .41 Magnum range. I like a 15 rd Glock in 10mm when I am in the woods. You can empty a Glock really fast if you are familiar with the trigger.

 

[BlackCat]

Beyond penetration, wider is better. It seems no matter how you look at it, .45 ACP wins.

Ask the people who wrote my states big game hunting laws. 10mm Auto is legal, .45 Auto isn't. There's gotta be a reason.

 

[TGT]

In recent years, I bought a P-14 15 shot 1911, a S&W 9 shot 1076 10mm, a 13 shot Sig 229 in 40 cal, and a 44 Mag S&W short barreled "Mountain Gun" revolver. With all these guns, defense was in mind. (And I figured the 44 would double up as a good woods gun too.).....

well....I still have them, they all work reliably, and I like them all. I probably enjoy the 10MM the best.

And you know what gun I carry?.......A 7 shot KAHR 9mm loaded with hot Corbons!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trust me....if you're going to carry your gun on your body concealed, (and not in your glove compartment), YOU'RE GOING TO GET TIRED OF CARRYING AND TRYING TO HIDE THOSE BIG HEAVY GUNS YOU NAMED.......REAL QUICK!

All I do with the Kahr is tuck it into the elastic waste band of my undies. I can go to the Chinese restaurant with it dressed in my shorts and polo shirt on a spur of the moment dinner decision. No special holster or equipment necessary. Try that with your 45 1911 or your 10MM!

A grizzly is probably going to eat you AND your gun, unless you're fortunate to hit him in his eye ball socket while he stands up on his two hind legs and momentarilly poses for you. (grizzlies seem to do that a lot you know......... in the movies) So if I were you, I'd worry more about visits in the woods from mean 2 legged animals.

 

[Jeff]

I got poked in the ribs the other day with a broom handle from a careless cleaning woman. I said "excuse me" and she said "I'm sorry." That is the equivalent of a charging grizzly bear getting hit with a .45 or 10mm.

 

[Rockstar]

10mm: The Scherer mags might or might not work, but I can guarantee you they won't be dead ringers for the real thing! Of course Glock never made 33-rd. mags for anything but 9mm, so you'd have a hard time finding a Glock mag for comparison.

 

[Igloodude]

Just for grins you could research the .45 Super or .451 Detonics or .450SMC or .460 Rowland which btw can all trump the 10mm!

Funny, I was going to mention the same thing. .45 Super, the hotness of 10mm and the hole of a .45ACP, best of both worlds, right?

 

[pocketgun]

Trust me....if you're going to carry your gun on your body concealed, (and not in your glove compartment), YOU'RE GOING TO GET TIRED OF CARRYING AND TRYING TO HIDE THOSE BIG HEAVY GUNS YOU NAMED.......REAL QUICK!

Wise words. Get the Glock 20 and something smaller you can easily conceal. I suggest something the size of the Kahr PM9, Kel-Tec P11, or smaller. Considering the age of this thread, you have no doubt already made your decision...

 

[glock21detroit]

i carry the glock 21 with winchester rangers in the 230 gr, this bullet goes 990fps. that seems very imperssive for a big bullet like that going that fast. i have 14 in my weapon, that won't stop a bear? i'm in the city, so my knowledge on what will stop a bear is close to none. but i would think if i hit that damn bear with 14 shots, that should take him down. i could be wrong and if that is so, then i need a glock 20. if anyone could answer that question i would be greatful for the knowledge.


this is my first post, thanks guys for the information you have give me in the past

 

[RTFM]

Why is EVERY ONE so damned interested in killing Bears with handgun rounds?

You live in the city - worry about gangs and liberals.

 

[The_woodsman]

Grizzly Bears? Terrorists? What next, Zombies?

You'd better get yourself a phaser from the USS enterprise instead.

Beam me up, Scottie!

 

[Big Boomer]

Just for grins you could research the .45 Super or .451 Detonics or .450SMC or .460 Rowland which btw can all trump the 10mm!

+1...2...3...oh hell +10!

Although I do like the 10mm, if you do not have a 45, OMG man get a 45! Unless you reload 10mm will pale in performance and cost.

Many show stats for the 45acp then show double tap ammos stats for 10mm. The 45+P loads from double tap come close to loads for the 45 Super.

If you reload, the 45 Super is a KICK ASS! If you are manly enough there is the 460 Rowland that can throw out a 185gr pill at over 1500fps! Out of a 5 inch barrel this exceeds 44mag performance for barrel length.

The 10mm can be stout, there is no doubt. But for the good stuff you are either restricted to buying expensive ammo, and usually only online, or reloading.

So if you don't reload the 460 Rowland/45 Super/10mm are pretty much out of the question.

a 45 acp in most loadings 185-230gr will put a nice big hole in someone if you need it. Ammo is readily available pretty much anywhere.

 

[Northalius]

You live in the city - worry about gangs and liberals.

LOL! Good one.

But seriously? It actually depends on the city. Don't trash him just yet. Just a week ago a blackbear was spotted in a park in Richmond VA (I live about 35 minutes NW of Richmond). No joke. And it's not a rare case, either.

I'm in the woods, so obviously, there'll be more sightings here. Just 3 days ago my neighbor (who's about 250 yards from me) said HER neighbor (about 100 yrds from her) saw a bear in their backyard.

BigBoomer... DoubleTap .45 ACP doesn't come close to their 10mm. Sorry. Their .45 ACP were fired from a 5" 1911 barrel, and their 10mm from a 4.6" Glock 20... yet the .45 ACP still didn't come close to the 10mm power.

DoubleTap 200 gr. WFNGC Beartooth flying in at 1300 fps from a 4.6" barrel, with 750 ft. lbs. energy. Put in a 6" barrel, and we're talking 1400+ fps, with around, or over, 900 ft. lbs. energy. The .45 ACP can only dream of such stats from the factory. Not even the .45 Super came close to the 10mm. The highest energy from a factory .45 Super that I've seen was 694 ft. lbs.?! Not even breaking 700!

Given equal barrel length, the 10mm out-powers even the .357 Magnum. If memory is correct, semi-auto pistols' barrels have the chamber counted in with the length of the barrel; whereas revolvers have the length of barrel which is literally stated. So, again, given equal barrel length, the 10mm is more powerful than the .357 Magnum, from what I've seen so far, at least.

I am getting a Glock 29 for CCW in the city and county, and for bear defense at the same time, since I work (and live) in and near the woods, yet have to go into the city / town.

The 10mm is plenty against black bears... as long as its DoubleTap 10mm 200 gr. WFNGC Beartooth.

DT's 200 gr. FMJ-FP (advertised as weaker than the WFNGC Beartooth) was put straight through a dense telephone pole, so I'd say their 200 gr. Beartooth is enough against any bear under 500 lbs. Heck, even a little more than that.

Even Ted Nugent walks around Africa with his Glock 20. Suicidal? Maybe. But he seems to know something most who don't even own a 10mm Glock 20 don't know, huh? And he's HARDLY some dumb gun novice... I can tell you that right now.

Not sure if true, but a poster on a forum who lives in Alaska said the Glock 20 is pretty popular in Alaska. Guess that says a lot, huh?

Of course, a .44 Mag is better; and a .500 Mag better than that... but the 10mm is hardly a slouch, even against bears... AS LONG as you use the right make of rounds (DoubleTap) and the right bullets (200 gr. WFNGC).

 

[Big Boomer]

BigBoomer... DoubleTap .45 ACP doesn't come close to their 10mm. Sorry. Their .45 ACP were fired from a 5" 1911 barrel, and their 10mm from a 4.6" Glock 20... yet the .45 ACP still didn't come close to the 10mm power.

DoubleTap 200 gr. WFNGC Beartooth flying in at 1300 fps from a 4.6" barrel, with 750 ft. lbs. energy. Put in a 6" barrel, and we're talking 1400+ fps, with around, or over, 900 ft. lbs. energy. The .45 ACP can only dream of such stats from the factory. Not even the .45 Super came close to the 10mm. The highest energy from a factory .45 Super that I've seen was 694 ft. lbs.?! Not even breaking 700!

Wasn't comparing the 45 acp to the 10mm but stating that double tap has some 45 acp loads that come close to 45 Super loads, that is impressive.

Considering you only have what 1 or 2 factory loaders for the 45 Super. It's kinda like the 10mm when it got dumbed down only a few manufacturers out there that make "good n hot" ones though right?

694 ft lbs in a 45 Super is a light load.

Try some of these on for size:

185gr 1403 fps for 808 ft lbs
200gr 1295 fps for 744 ft lbs
230gr 1070 fps for 585 ft lbs
260gr 1000 fps for 577 ft lbs

So double taps 200 at 1300fps for the 10mm and 1295 for the 45 Super. Whelp ya got it by 5 fps! But oh wait, what's that 260 grainer doing there?!

If you really want a crotch rocket, fire some loads of 110 grainers for the 45 Super.

Double taps 10mm 180 grain loads with jacketed only get to 1300fps?

I am not saying the 45 Super trumps the 10, I am just saying that it's damn close if not equal most of the time. And if ya want to throw on the 6" bbl on the glock then I'll just toss on my 460 Rowland barrel and that kinda defeats that too...185 at 1521fps with only 951 ft lbs or even the 200gr at 1483 fps for a puny 977 fp lbs sure feels nice

But they are just pistols after all...

I'm actually going to pick up one of the new delta elites when it comes out. I just don't like Glocks

 

[Northalius]

What manufacturer makes those loads at those speeds and energy? Or is that handloaded? And length of barrel used? 5" 1911, I'm going to assume?

I've read people handloading their 10mm themselves to fly in at 1830 fps (135 gr. I believe) tops; 1810 average. If my guess is right about 135 gr., then that's more than 200 fps faster than DoubleTaps' 10mm. So adding 150-200 fps more on to DT's loads, you're looking at massive power from a 10mm.

No one said DT had MAX potential from the 10mm, either. They're just the strongest from factory, is all I'm saying. Handloaded 10mm can be much more powerful. I believe DT simply loads down because of staying at or around SAAMI specs.

DT's highest velocity 180 gr. (XTP) is 1350 fps. He must load the Gold Dot HP lower for a reason; probably to keep it from fragging up too much.

If DT can make a 200 gr. go 1300 out of a 4.6" barrel, then if they wanted, they can easily go over 1400 fps with 180 gr. out of the same length barrel... if they really wanted to.

Anyway, this is 10mm vs. .45 ACP

10mm > .45 ACP, any day. Has more power AND more capacity! If you're in the woods, you want the 10mm, if picking from these two!

 

[Whitman31]

Good Article...

http://www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/10/10mm-advoc.htm

 

[Big Boomer]

I've read people handloading their 10mm themselves to fly in at 1830 fps (135 gr. I believe) tops; 1810 average.

I scoured around for loads on the 10mm (as I am looking to buy one) and have only seen 135gr under 1550fps within SAAMI specs. Any idiot can make a proof load and hope his gun holds up for a few shots.

The specs I was quoting were for SAAMI.

I figured you would throw in that "more capacity thing" but as I said I HATE GLOCKS so if you noticed they make a nice new 1911 in the delta elite coming out soon. I could take a 22lr bear hunting too but I'll stick with my 45/70 boom stick and the 500 hand cannon for those tasks.

You are right about the fragmentation. My 460 Rowland actually penetrates LESS than my 45 Super or 45 acp with the same bullet. Wound channel is much different but there is fragmentation that occurs in your HP bullets. Gold Dots were not meant to scream out that fast. Now the FMJ is a different story. But then what really is the purpose of those rounds?

My pistols are my carry devices. Primary target, two legged snakes. I want something that works great on those. Also trying to conceal those double stack mags is a pain in the rear. Looks like I get a friggin goiter!

I have an XD-45 so I understand the problems carrying a double stack mags as spares and a large polymer. I must also say this is the first AND LAST polymer gun that I will ever buy period. I like it. But nothing is as comfortable as a 1911 in my pants...that kinda sounded um wierd.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

When you compare the top factory loads (e. g., Double Tap for the 10mm and Buffalo Bore for the .357 Magnum), you will see the .41 Magnum is considerably "hotter" than the 10mm and the .357 Magnum is just slightly "hotter" than the 10mm (but not enough to make a difference).

True .41 Magnums run on the heels of the .44 Magnum, and I would never try to compare the 10mm Auto to either of them. However, I have to question how much advantage a .357 Magnum could have over the 10mm Auto when comparing top loads, and equal barrel lengths. Remember that the .357 Magnum being a revolver round is usually tested in barrels that are actually longer than your typical full size service auto due to differences in how barrel lengths are measured. A revolver is measured from the rear of the barrel in front of the cylinder gap. An auto is measured from the rear of the chamber block. So a 4.6 inch barreled auto like the Glock 20 only has a little over 3 inches of actual rifling, or maybe 80% of the barrel length afforded by a 4 inch revolver.

I don't consider the 10mm Auto, .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, or just about any other handgun for that matter, adequate for grizzly defense. I would use any of aforementioned handguns with the right loads to defend against and hunt black bear or mountain lion, and have carried my Glock 20 on my hip when hunting and hiking for that purpose. With a 180 or 200 gr bullet, esp a controlled expansion JHP or FMJFP, the Glock 20 has the penetration necessary for these smaller critters, but not for the larger, heavier built grizzly. The magazine capacity of the Glock 20 makes no difference here, and anyone who has ever seen a grizzly move would know this. A grizzly is going to be on you before you can shoot more than maybe 3 aimed rounds. That fact that you have 12 left in the magazine, or that you can pop off 9 un-aimed rounds in the bear's general direction is completely irrelevant.

As for the 10mm vs the .45 ACP, I would say it would depend on what your primary use is going to be. If you are going to be hunting or using the handgun for defense against cougars or such, as well as using it for defense against two-legged predators, then I would give the nod to the 10mm Auto. It has the potential to be loaded to provide better penetration, which would be especially important on frontal shots likely to be encountered when defending yourself against a bear or mountain lion. The 10mm does, however, have more muzzle flip and snappier shooting characteristics than the .45. Like the .357 Magnum it is ballistically equivalent to, the 10mm requires more practice to gain and stay proficient in than the more traditional service cartridges. I tend to feel that it is worth it, if you can, to do so. As a purely defensive handgun, the .45 has a stellar reputation and the added controllability it offers might outweigh any advantages one can gain in penetration with another round.

Also, I would argue as to whether the .45 expands to an average larger diameter. It has a greater initial diameter, but the greater energy and velocity of the 10mm Auto makes it more likely to expand. I think it evens out in the end.

 

[Ultima-Ratio]

boomer said

I scoured around for loads on the 10mm (as I am looking to buy one) and have only seen 135gr under 1550fps within SAAMI specs. Any idiot can make a proof load and hope his gun holds up for a few shots.

Look a bit harder boomer, the Hodgedon manual lists a 135gn load using 800x that I've clocked at over 1700fps and somewhere on their website as data for Longshot that get high numbers also.

Glocktalk has a massive amount of loading data for the 10mm also, please bear in mind that all 10mms are not equal in strength as are many barrels may or may not have proper (safe) chamber support.

 

[Big Boomer]

I don't have my reloading manuals with me (out of town on business again )

but just went to hodgdon's site (can never spell that right, nor pronounce it!) in the 135 grainers hottest I see there is under 1500fps no 800x listed for the 135 grainers.

What PSI are those operating at? Their site shows loads close to 37k psi but I believe that safe specs are within 40k right? I am also looking at a 5" barrel not the 6".

I'd be interested in finding some but within safe limits. If I'm going to drop another G on a gun I'd like to get a few rounds threw it before I blow it to pieces

 

[Ultima-Ratio]

Manuals Hodgdon Loose Leaf Binder Cheapo

I don't have my reloading manuals with me (out of town on business again )

but just went to hodgdon's site (can never spell that right, nor pronounce it!) in the 135 grainers hottest I see there is under 1500fps no 800x listed for the 135 grainers.

What PSI are those operating at? Their site shows loads close to 37k psi but I believe that safe specs are within 40k right? I am also looking at a 5" barrel not the 6".

I'd be interested in finding some but within safe limits. If I'm going to drop another G on a gun I'd like to get a few rounds threw it before I blow it to pieces

You will see a very under rated 14.5 grains of IMR 800X which BTW won't fit in the case without partial precompression...pain to do so I switched to Longshot.

I first found a link to Hodgdons 10mm data on Firingline or thehighroad forums sometime ago when Longshot was first introduced and did all my clocking from a Kimber converted .40 and a KKM barreled Glock, btw Glocks are famous for poor chamber support (kaboom!) so those in the know that just have to have the Glock platform in 10mm or .45 Super get either the KKM or BarSto barrel.

The 1911 platform adapts well to high pressure cartridges like the .45 Super/460 Rowland (cheap .451 Detonics knock off) and the 10mm because we can change timing lock up with main spring and recoil spring weights, the Glock only has the recoil spring.

FYI, the 800x loads showed no increase in velocity going from a stock Glock 20 to the Glock six inch.
As for pressures? I'd assume if the load is published then the load is within SAAMI.

In my mind 10mm vs the wildcat .45s was an interesting diversion but a .45 is still a .45 and a 10mm is still a .40. One can debate the SD (sectional density) advantage of the .40 or load a .45 230gn to 1400fps and compare vs various barriers?

Which load delivers more flesh destruction, a .45 185@1550 or a .40 135gn@1800fps?

Recoil control becomes a major factor at these levels, a compensated commander 1911 in single or double stack in either caliber.. only a Grand!!??

Check with Kevin at KKM, could be he offers a comped barrel for the small Glock 29?

 

[MTMilitiaman]

SAAMI maximum average chamber pressure for the 10mm Auto is 37,500 PSI, IIRC.

Double Tap Ammunition lists a load with a 135 gr Nosler JHP @ 1600 fps from a 4.6 inch G20. I think it is unlikely that you'd be able to handload it any hotter. Mike does a pretty good job with it.

I guess I missed where the interest in the 135 gr load came from, though. Unless you just want to most velocity you can get, or you don't want to overpenetrate on 40 pound stray dogs, there are better options, IMO. For a strictly defensive round, I would lean towards the 165 or 180 gr Gold Dots. The 180 gr load is my favorite, as it also provides enough momentum and sectional density to have impressive penetration--enough so that I can trust it against black bear and mountain lion when hiking. If it was a dedicated woods gun, I would go even heavier to the 200 gr XTP or even the FMJFP. If you have an aftermarket barrel with conventional rifling and are looking for serious penetration, Double Tap also offers some 220 gr hard cast loads.

All in all, the 135 gr loads, I feel, are the least useful. You'll get the most utility out of the 10mm Auto with the 165 to 200 gr bullets, with the 180 gr @ ~1300 fps being the best compromise between expansion and penetration.

btw Glocks are famous for poor chamber support (kaboom!) so those in the know that just have to have the Glock platform in 10mm or .45 Super get either the KKM or BarSto barrel.

Well...yes and no.

Mike McNett reportedly worked up his Double Tap loads with a completely stock Glock 20. If the rounds are within SAAMI specs, the Glock barrel is more than enough to take a lifetime of shooting. However, if you plan to reload your cases, the stock barrel tends to decrease case life. Therefore, I did put a KKM in mine when I started handloading. But this was to preserve case life more than protect against kBs. Again, the factory Glock barrel offers more than enough support to easily handle any load within SAAMI specs.

 

[R&J]

10 mm Has The Edge On .357 Magnum

Lets look at Double Tap .357 Magnum & 10 mm...

1) .357 Magnum, 1600 fps, 710 ft. lbs., 125 gr Gold Dot

2) 10 mm, 1600 fps, 767 ft. lbs., 135 gr Nosler

3) .357 Magnum, 1400 fps, 688 ft. lbs., 158 gr Gold Dot

4) 10mm, 1475 fps, 750 ft. lbs, 155 gr Gold Dot

5) .357 Magnum, 1200 fps, 640 ft. lbs., 200 gr Hardcast

6) 10mm, 1300 fps, 750 ft. lbs., 200 gr Hardcast

I believe them's apples & apples! But the 10 mm has a slight edge on the .357 magnum.

Then there's the whole sixteen shots thingy!

And a nice slide to eat up some recoil!

Safe To Say...

10 mm = To .44 Magnum? No.

10 mm = To .41 Magnum? Maybe.

10 mm = To .357 Magnum? Hell, yes!

--Ray

 

[R&J]

Reply To MTMilitiaman

I guess I missed where the interest in the 135 gr load came from, though. Unless you just want to most velocity you can get, or you don't want to overpenetrate on 40 pound stray dogs, there are better options, IMO. For a strictly defensive round, I would lean towards the 165 or 180 gr Gold Dots.

Fair enough.

The interest was based on a service record of proven stopping power in .357 magnum revolvers. It's effective against two legged beasties.

Independent tests on Double Tap's 135 grain Nosler, numbers aside, include the observation, "Nasty".

The light, fast frangible rounds have their place for SD in an urban setting, where overpenetration is a real consideration. Not that any of us would miss...

The thinking holds for 10 mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP.

I use the DT 185 gr Gold Dots in my G21. The 165 grain variety are discontinued.

--Ray