10mm or 45 acp for self defense
- Thread starter CDW4ME
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Okay, one of the original "normal" and "full power" 10mm loads ..... Winchester Silvertip 175 gr.
1,170 fps / 533# KE (from a Glock 20) penetrates about 16 inches (doesn't over penetrate) with .64 expansion
Hokkmike
Member
My sentiment is with ArchAngel here.....
wow6599
Member
Okay.....where can a person pick-up some of those Silvertips? As you are the OP, I am curios if you started this thread of "discussion" just to inform us that the 10mm IS better than the .45 ACP, cause that's what it's starting to look like?
They both work, whether using hot new loads, or old, discontinued loads from back in the day.
Pelo801
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I think you should put yourself on a timer. I'm not calling you liar or anything, but I seriously doubt that you can double tap or get on target with follow up shots with the 10mm as well (fast) as you can the 45. And a timer would give you that info. For me, that would be more of a deciding factor than can I run 135 grainers at nuclear speeds.
For self defense purposes there is no need for ultra high speed bullets. Placing the bullet where it needs to go is far more important than how fast the bullet is traveling. FAR MORE IMPORTANT. People successfully slaughtered other human beings and game for many years with black powder weapons shooting crude projectiles that only traveled at 700 fps or so. They were able to do that because they had the skill to make accurate shots. Ultra high speed ammunition is nothing but marketing. A great deal of time and taxpayer dollars were used to develop the .45 ACP because the Army wanted a round that would drop an enemy Cavalryman's horse - not an enemy soldier - his horse. Think about that for a moment.
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Mr_Flintstone
Member
In my opinion (and that and a buck-fifty will buy you a Coke), .45 ACP has been killing bad guys since 1911. I guess 10 mm might kill them deader. Either way you go, you're really going to mess up the day of the person on the other side.
MTMilitiaman
Member
I've got a Glock 20SF and 21SF, "got both".
Already carried the "big" pistol for over a year concealed IWB (not saying which).
I have Truglow TFO sights on both.
Shoot both equally well, double taps at 6- 7 yards on 6 inch circles.
I handload but that is not part of the criteria.
Which would be "best" for SD against humans (No bears ect...)
15 +1 of 10mm
13 + 1 of 45 acp
I love the 10mm Auto. It does anything I need an auto to do. It is far more versatile than the ACP and has so much more potential. If you shoot it well and already handload, I can't think of a single reason not to use it. The .45 isn't going to offer a single ballistic advantage, whether external or terminal, and it is going to drop your magazine capacity a couple rounds. This isn't the end of the world, but it's not a good thing either. If you're worried about over penetration, load something in the 135 to 165 gr range at between 1600 and 1400 fps, respectively. If you're like me and believe success is a gaping exit wound, load up some 180 gr JHPs @ 1300 fps, or better yet, some 200 gr Hornady XTPs @ 1250 fps.
fastbolt
Member
As an instructor, I'd wish to observe the results of you doing the "double taps" and see if the 6" groups are the result of the second or first rounds opening up in placement, in a consistent manner, that could be corrected with some work on grip, trigger press or reducing anticipation of the recoil, meaning how well you're able to control and run either caliber gun, in general.
I'd have you compare the results of some varied and demanding drills, comparing how you felt while running the guns, as well as looking at both "the clock" and the results on the targets, and suggest you choose whichever pistol you felt gave you the best potential to effectively handle and control it, while making consistently accurate hits, no matter the number of shots fired, under stress.
Both the pistols you mention have an ample, and similar, number of rounds in their magazines. The extra velocity & M.E. of the 10 may not be as much of an "advantage" as expected, and might even be costing you a little when it comes to your consistency of controllability, especially as you start to push/reach the limits of your existing skills.
I've seen my fair share of folks bring both calibers through qual courses-of-fire over the years. Seldom has someone been able to run their 10 as well as they could another caliber (like .45 or .40), especially when they experienced the normal self-induced stress of being watched by one or more instructors, as well as by other students/shooters.
You might be the exception, which is fine. It's your life you're planning to stake on the difference. You only have to convince yourself which "answer" is the right one for you.
Just because you might be able to run one caliber a little bit faster than the other, the amount of "faster" might not be something that seemed critical to you. Your call.Me? I'd take the .45 over the medium-bore 10mm, even as a long time Magnum revolver shooter who doesn't mind a little increased muzzle blast and rise.
I actually had the opportunity to shoot the first G20 that, according to the Glock rep in '90, was the first one imported into the US when the model was just arrived. He provided Norma ammunition for it, which was somewhat hotter than originally envisioned for the 10mm Auto, remembering what Cooper wrote that he thought would be the best personal defense loading for the caliber. (Remember that the .41 "Police" load eventually developed for the .41 Magnum was a heavy bullet loaded to lower velocities, too.) I remember thinking that it was soft-shooting gun for a medium-bore pistol, but still preferred the .45 for it's recoil impulse, myself. I haven't changed my mind over the years in that regard.
That's me, though, and you only need to please yourself.
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mokin
Member
I voted for the 10mm Auto just because that is what I have. Nothing against the .45. If you can shoot them both equally well so much the better.
Thanks for the link CDW4ME. I have those 175 grain Winchesters in my pistol right now. I clocked them out of my Glock 29 and it seems to me they came in about 100 fps under the advertised velocity. I just figured it was the barrel length. Anyhoo.... That link led me down a short rabbit hole and I realized that being able to watch tests of a particular load is a great advantage of carrying a factory load.
When talking about full size pistols, 10mm all the way. It's not the best practise round, especially if you're not familiar with medium and higher power handgun cartridges, but like when hunting and your adrenaline level is high you don't really feel the recoil or pay any conscious attention to it in real self defence situation. Just like a number of people can't really handle large caliber hunting revolvers from the bench but shoot them quite well on the field.
My primary carry gun, Para P16-40 has a pair of barrels and recoil springs, one .40S&W and another 10mm. I mainly practise with .40 and switch over to 10mm for everything else. With the hottest loads I can find. If 16 of them from the gun and 15+15 from spare magazines don't suffice, I should have brought a long gun in the first place...
My primary carry gun, Para P16-40 has a pair of barrels and recoil springs, one .40S&W and another 10mm. I mainly practise with .40 and switch over to 10mm for everything else. With the hottest loads I can find. If 16 of them from the gun and 15+15 from spare magazines don't suffice, I should have brought a long gun in the first place...
You expressed concern about the 10mm being over penetrative, I provided an example where it wasn't, rather dependent on bullet.
That example was not suitable, so I provided another with a bullet that is traditional 10mm.
If you had posted that 45 acp under penetrates I would have found examples where it did not.
I'm not informing that 10mm is better, rather providing evidence contrary to a incorrect generalization, which I would do for 45 acp.
I've shot using a timer, with very specific criteria.
I put a 6 inch circle on a larger silhouette at 6-7 yards, both 1st & 2nd shot have to hit the circle.
My criteria results in slower average splits than if I was satisfied with less stringent accuracy.
(1'' away may be a good hit in reality, but its a miss in "my test" and doesn't count for average time.)
I use self defense ammo, not range ammo, for split time: Critical Duty, Ranger T, +P in 9mm, ect...
I've averaged 1/3 second with anything I carry (including the 10mm), and 1/4 second is blazing fast (Glock 19 9mm) given above criteria.
I am consistently fastest with the Glock 19 9mm, but the difference between that and 45 / 10mm is no more than .08 (eight hundredths second)
Edit: I don't have any of the nuclear 135 gr. it was an example for penetration , or lack of.
Edit #2: Here is an example of "my test" from 2013 (please not not revive zombie thread)....
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...ional-accuracy-follow-up-shots-open-mind.html
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Another classic overthinking thread. LOL
http://www.inc.com/lolly-daskal/10-simple-ways-you-can-stop-yourself-from-overthinking.html
M
http://www.inc.com/lolly-daskal/10-simple-ways-you-can-stop-yourself-from-overthinking.html
M
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Big7
Member
I carry a 9 Para in the summer so I won't "print" to much.And most of the time in winter as well. Now and then, I have to break out the GP-100.
The .357 is THE BOMB! If I had only one choice, the .357, whatever your flavor is what you use.
My next carry will be a .357 Sig. Best of all worlds. Compact, feeds well and very powerful.
Having said that, If your hands are large enough to handle a large frame .45, just makes sense to me to go with the 10.
Just sayin'.
You're right.
I carried the 45 for over a year, bought that one first, got the 10mm couple months later.
I leaned toward "bigger is better" and making the largest hole.
Despite internet opinion to the contrary (not necessarily this thread) I do think increasing KE from 400# to 500# or more may make a difference.
Leading to the question of, is giving up 1mm in bullet diameter offset by increasing KE by 20% or more.
Same choice if one considers 357 Sig vs 40 S&W which is 1mm less diameter in exchange for increased KE.
Difference with 357 Sig versus 40 is that capacity in that choice is the same, whereas with my two options its not.
After review of comments in this thread and another, I've decided which is "best" and that's 10mm, stipulation that recoil doesn't exceed 45 +P.
Summarized conclusion: given similar recoil (PF) and potential for each bullet to stop a threat, 10mm is "better" because two more rounds.
Mod(s) feel free to lock the thread, as my original question has been resolved.
I've got a Glock 20SF and 21SF, "got both".
Already carried the "big" pistol for over a year concealed IWB (not saying which).
I have Truglow TFO sights on both.
Shoot both equally well, double taps at 6- 7 yards on 6 inch circles.
I handload but that is not part of the criteria.
Which would be "best" for SD against humans (No bears ect...)
15 +1 of 10mm
13 + 1 of 45 acp
Little common sense will tell you the .45ACP is the right choice. It can be had in smaller pistol and there are many, many more defense loads for .45ACP than for 10mm auto. Companies like Winchester even load premium hollow point with reduced flash which is what smart person would choose in the first place. Average person posting here doesn't really need to carry handgun for defense let alone one with 15 round magazine. I recommend S&W Shield .45ACP with disclaimer "for very experienced handgun shooters only".
Having been the victim of an armed assault even once suddenly changes the perspective of what might theoretically suffice when the proverbial manure really hits the fan. It's no coincidence that I have retired the HK P7M8 as my primary carry gun. Not generalizing at all, just reminding that the inconvenience of carrying a full sized double stack may well have its upsides too.
I like what my G29 has to offer:
upload images free
left to right: 40sw-10mm extended-9x25 Dillon
And also 10mm comes in various loading to suit you and your pistol.
image url upload
upload images freeleft to right: 40sw-10mm extended-9x25 Dillon
And also 10mm comes in various loading to suit you and your pistol.
image url upload
Phaedrus/69
Member
Of the two I would choose the .45 ACP. But if you can handle the recoil and are happy with the limited handful of guns available in 10mm it's probably a "better" round against humans.
Phaedrus/69
Member
Yeah, if you're talking a carbine or SMG I would choose the 10mm. Not a huge selection of long guns in either round but if there was a 10mm UMP or MP5 on the market again it would be sweet.
The Mech Tech carbine conversion is available in 10mm. I would think that counts.
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