10mm vs Bear

[CraigC]

We're not talking about hunting, so I don't care about sectional density.

Lord have mercy, another elementary discussion about penetration.

If you're relying on a relatively big and slow projectile to stop a charging 1000lb bruin (this applies to all large and dangerous game), you need a few things for best results. You need a large diameter projectile to punch a large hole because you are typically using projectiles NOT designed to expand. A big bullet doesn't need to expand to be effective. The second important factor is bullet construction. You need a tough bullet that will break bones and punch through the vital organs without deforming or fragmenting. The third important factor is penetration. Bullet construction is critical but so is weight. You need a heavy-for-caliber bullet that will penetrate deeply. Sectional density is an indication of this and it is critical to have a high sectional density for adequate penetration. Velocity is all but unimportant. It is the most rapidly diminishing factor. The difference in velocity is a hell of a lot less important than the momentum of a heavy bullet. Heavy bullets at moderate velocities penetrate and large gains in velocity yield minute gains in penetration.

Yeah, slugs have a reputation but IMHO, much of it is myth based on heresay and seat of the pants impressions than real testing. In real testing, tough bullets, heavy for caliber with high sectional densities penetrate deeply, produce large wound channels and break bones. Large projectiles with low sectional densities may produce a lot of recoil but the wound channel will be shallow because it lacks the weight (for its diameter) for enough momentum to penetrate deeply. The large frontal area coupled with light weight (relatively speaking) will NEVER penetrate as deeply as a heavy for caliber hardcast bullet fired from a rifle.

If all this is a foreign concept to you maybe you should do a little less talking and a little more reading. I would love to see the results of some actual penetration testing that shows how the various slugs compare to big and heavy sixgun and/or rifle bullets. If you scan through the commonly published ballistics tables and pick your poison according to which has the highest muzzle energy, maybe you need to think a little deeper because there's much more to it.

Lets get two guys together.
One with a 4 inch .44 mag loaded with 6 300gr. bullets
The other with a Glock 20 loaded with 15 230gr. bullets

More spray and pray nonsense. Even if what you propose is true, you will deliver a FAR more effective blow with a single heavy sixgun load than numerous hits with your autojammer. The first shot, as always, is the most important. Make it count.

 

[CraigC]

Double post, storm took out my internet.

 

[CraigC]

It is a fine round to defend yourself againt bear.

12ga slugs are commonly recommended for a couple reasons. They are cheap and plentiful and most people have one. Period. Not because they are the most effective tool for the job. Most people don't have a dangerous game rifle. If they were the best tool for the job, more people would hunt with them but they are not. As shoulder-fired arms go they are minimal. For a 12ga slug to penetrate as deeply as a 400gr .45/70, it would have to way over 1000gr and that baby, is gonna hurt you as bad as it will hurt the bear.

Sorry but I have to doubt the mental state of anyone who would rather have a can of pepper spray than a properly loaded heavy sixgun with which you are proficient. I just hope it's more effective than the stuff I used to carry for dogs.

 

[rbrtweber85]

My freedom arms model 83 in. 500 Wyoming express works perfectly.

 

[Justin Holder]

Unless you have ice water in your veins, you could quite possibly miss with the first shot no matter what you are shooting.
But if what you are shooting has a great deal of recoil and muzzle flip, that means your second shot will be that much slower.

Its not about spray and pray tactics, its just a fact that a cartridge with low recoil is more controllable than one with a large amount of recoil.

A heavy 10mm loading with a good hard cast bullet has a great deal of penetration potential.

And if one is good, two is better.

 

[bjk7]

I realize this thread is about bow hunting and the adequacy of 10mm, however, since bears are being discussed generally I highly recommend people read the Lewis and Clark journals, or the Stephen Ambrose book "Undaunted Courage". It is a fascinating read, and is enlightening with regard to grizzly behavior pre-whiteman.

As the party headed up the Missouri, thinking themselves excellent hunters (and they certainly were), they all wanted to take a "white bear" with their .54 cal. 1803 Flint Locks, which they shot offhand accurately to over 200 yards. Well, their enthusiasm quickly turned to abject terror when they saw how many .54 cal slugs one bear could withstand, along with the bears' terrifying tendency to charge the shooter immediately after firing. For many hunts thereafter on their journey, the party only took "white bears" by sending a volley of three or more shots first, with two or three more men in reserve to fire an additional volley when the bear charged after the initial hits.

So, to me, the moral of the story is: Take great care to NEVER shoot an aggravated or surprised griz if you don't have to because once he's hit, a blood bath, of both yours and his, may be only seconds away.

 

[saturno_v]

Yeah, slugs have a reputation but IMHO, much of it is myth based on heresay and seat of the pants impressions than real testing

I'm sorry but your opinion does not really count on this...Brenneke 3" Magnum hardcast slugs are well proven big bear stoppers over and over...in Alaska people prefer them for close range defense over any rifle, 458 included...ask any experienced Alaskan guide.....only close range defense?? Leave your $2000 DSG rifle at home and bring your ~$250 Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 stuffed with Brenneke 3" Black Magic slugs...

For the Brenneke there is another factor at play...the very sharp shoulder of the slug nose.....that thing basically removes any tissue along its wounding path...it is nothing short of devastating....

Look at that slug...




If you own a 12 ga. shotgun, do yourself a favor and try these babies in a penetration test....do not confuse this slug with your run of the mill hollow Foster slug made of soft lead...they are very sifferent...

Lets get two guys together.
One with a 4 inch .44 mag loaded with 6 300gr. bullets
The other with a Glock 20 loaded with 15 230gr. bullets

Here I agree with Craig...my 8 3/8" S&W 29 can launch a 320 gr. bullet at over 1300 ft/lb of muzzle energy.....basically double the amount of a full house 10 mm load.....and it shoots a heavier, bigger bullet with higher sectional density.

Against a brown bear I would take my 44 Mag revolver any time over my S&W 1006 10mm pistol.

 

[Justin Holder]

10mm 230gr. hard cast
230gr. x 15 = 3450 grains
640 ft/lb x 15 = 9600 ft/lbs

.44 mag 320gr. hard cast
320gr. x 6 = 1920 grains
1200 ft/lb x 6 = 7200 ft/lbs

3450gr. vs 1920gr. = 10mm

9600ft/lb vs 7200ft/lb = 10mm

Your holding a whole lot of awesome when you hold a Glock 20.

Them bears had better beware.

 

[Antihero]

I imagine one of the reasons people dont hunt bear with slugs is because of the range limitations. Very rarely do you need to defend yourself from a charging bear at 300yds.

Velocity is all but unimportant. It is the most rapidly diminishing factor.

Im sorry but this is almost laughable. So you are saying that there is no difference in lethality between a 38spec 125 gr bullet and a 357 firing the same load? That the difference in a couple hundred feet per second is unimportant?

If all this is a foreign concept to you maybe you should do a little less talking and a little more reading. I would love to see the results of some actual penetration testing that shows how the various slugs compare to big and heavy sixgun and/or rifle bullets. If you scan through the commonly published ballistics tables and pick your poison according to which has the highest muzzle energy, maybe you need to think a little deeper because there's much more to it.

I have and mentioned it in a previous post. 12 gauge brenneke slug penetrate a lot more than any HC load ive fired from 45colt at +P velocities or the 357 and 44 mag. I dont own a 45-70 but i can say that the 12gauge slug penetrates more than any FMJ 7.62x54 or 303 that ive fired.

I'm sorry but your opinion does not really count on this...Brenneke 3" Magnum hardcast slugs are well proven big bear stoppers over and over...in Alaska people prefer them for close range defense over any rifle, 458 included...ask any experienced Alaskan guide.....only close range defense?? Leave your $2000 DSG rifle at home and bring your ~$250 Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 stuffed with Brenneke 3" Black Magic slugs...

I agree with all of this, proof trumps theory.

10mm 230gr. hard cast
230gr. x 15 = 3450 grains
640 ft/lb x 15 = 9600 ft/lbs

.44 mag 320gr. hard cast
320gr. x 6 = 1920 grains
1200 ft/lb x 6 = 7200 ft/lbs

3450gr. vs 1920gr. = 10mm

9600ft/lb vs 7200ft/lb = 10mm

Your holding a whole lot of awesome when you hold a Glock 20.

Them bears had better beware.

The problem with this theory is that it requires you to fire all 15rnds of 10mm or 6 rounds of 44mag, which unless you are astronomically lucky, will not happen.

Dont get me wrong i love the 10mm and would like to get one for woods walking. I would trust it against black bear, but wouldnt want to meet a grizzly with one in my hand. The 44mag and above rounds, definately including the 45colt+p here are much more powerful and yes bear worthy.

 

[BamAlmighty]

I wouldn't want to go up against a brown or kodiak with just a 10mm.

 

[Mainsail]

Sheesh, it always goes this way. Guy asks a simple question but makes the mistake of using the word "bear" in it. Before long every bear is a grizzly, and the grizzly is only slightly less indestructible than Chuck Norris on PCP.

 

[saturno_v]

10mm 230gr. hard cast
230gr. x 15 = 3450 grains
640 ft/lb x 15 = 9600 ft/lbs

.44 mag 320gr. hard cast
320gr. x 6 = 1920 grains
1200 ft/lb x 6 = 7200 ft/lbs

3450gr. vs 1920gr. = 10mm

9600ft/lb vs 7200ft/lb = 10mm

Your holding a whole lot of awesome when you hold a Glock 20.

Them bears had better beware.

Following your logic, my Remington 597 22 LR with its 30 round magazine would be more effective than my 44 Mag revolver....it does not make any sense....


Your 10mm rounds may fail to penetrate a vital/CNS area where a 44 Mag would get through...in most wildlife defense scenario you are lucky if you get one shot.....extremely so (or almost impossibly so) if you can fire 2 or 3

 

[saturno_v]

I have and mentioned it in a previous post. 12 gauge brenneke slug penetrate a lot more than any HC load ive fired from 45colt at +P velocities or the 357 and 44 mag. I dont own a 45-70 but i can say that the 12gauge slug penetrates more than any FMJ 7.62x54 or 303 that ive fired.

I don;t know the 303 but, man, the 7.62x54R FMJ 180 gr. penetrate A LOT....once one 148 gr. FMJ went through a live sizeable oak tree..never recovered the bullet.....in and out...

 

[45bthompson]

Don't use a back up gun. The bow will work fine. Do like arnold in Predator. Get some of those 40mm grenade arrrow tips. If it can kill an alien I'm sure it could handle a bear.

 

[Greg Koziol]

10mm would work as a last resort if the bear was already mauling you and provided the impact of an 800 pound animal smashing into you at 40 mph doesn't knock you unconscious and doesn't knock the gun out of your hand then you can probably empty a clip into his neck as he's mauling you... otherwise its useless. As an absolute last resort thats all its good for!! and only if your lucky. The real world is not like the movies, an 800 pound bear is a big animal, a 1000pound moose is a big animal. I'm 6'3'' and 290 pounds with full clothest on, I have 21" arms, can deadlift 800 pounds, and narrow grip bench over 400 pounds for several reps.. most people think i'm a large creature... yet when I stand next to a big wild animal like a moose, or see one in the wild or close... I suddenly don't feel so towering. Do you realize how big bears are? A mature black bear is like 2 of me... plus 2" canines, plus 1" claws. A grizzly bears is like 4 or 5 of me plus 3" canines and 2" claws!! I would say keep the 10mm on one of those lanyards you can buy them for glocks that go over your wrist so if your glip slips the gun won't fall and bounce out of reach, but still an 800 bear chargin you intent on killing you is a BAD situation. You will need atleast a .45/70, or 12 gauge with slugs to stop a bear charge.

 

[Justin Holder]

I didn't say it made sense, Just calculating the respective potential fire power of the two.

If a bear is on top of you, a revolver is the better thing to have because you can jab the barrel into him and pull the trigger, the same cannot be done with a semi-auto because the slide would come out of battery.

But the idea is to keep the bear off of you in the first place.

Lets put the argument to rest.

During a bear charge.

If you connect with your first shot - the 44 magnum wins due to greater stopping power

If you miss with your first shot - the 10mm wins due to faster follow up shots

So my suggestion is to carry both, when the bear charges, shoot the 44 in your right hand and shoot the 10mm in your left.

 

[KodiakBeer]

I suspect a 10mm will stop a black bear if you're a competent shot. A black bear attack (most often) unfolds slowly and you may have an opportunity to get a clean head shot. However, your odds go up considerably if you just use pepper spray since it has near 100% "stopping power".

With a grizzly, it isn't just the size that comes into play, it's the method of attack. Most of the time you have no warning at all. The bear just rushes from close range (40 mph), knocks you down and mauls the hell out of you. The only 100% "stop" is a heavy bullet on the tip of the nose. It's easier to hit that small moving target with a long arm.

It isn't just a remote possibility in some places. In Alaska, this happens about once a week during much of the year - and those are just the ones that make the paper. I'm sure there are 5 or 10 times as many incidents that don't make the newspaper. Most people here carry shotguns, including the professionals such as field biologists. Most savvy people also have pepper spray.

Many times a shot into the ground (if you have time) will turn a bear - I've done that myself on a couple of occasions. Pepper spray will almost always turn a bear, but it's slow to deploy... I carry pepper spray but every time I might have used it, I didn't have time (or enough hands) to get it out and still keep the animal covered with a rifle or shotgun.

Anyway, if you're a bow hunter and can't carry a long arm, I'd get some pepper spray. I'd carry a handgun also, but think of the pepper as the primary defense because it's more effective.

 

[KodiakBeer]

So my suggestion is to carry both, when the bear charges, shoot the 44 in your right hand and shoot the 10mm in your left.

I... ahem... ummm... Oh, never mind!

 

[Justin Holder]

Your right! That wouldn't leave a free hand to hold the pepper spray, silly me.

 

[Deaf Smith]

CraigC,

Are you saying Brown bear have the thickness and difficulty of a Elephant or Rino?

I mean Brown Bears are tough, but geeze they are not Cape Buffalo.

Penitration is relative and I feel for big bears a well made slug from a shotgun will do fine if the shooter does his part and hits.

Not saying a 45/70 won't do fine but a good 12 will to.

Deaf

 

[Justin Holder]

Sorry to point this out, but coastal brown bears can get to be as large as cape buffalo.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Sorry to point this out, but coastal brown bears can get to be as large as cape buffalo.

No doubt Justin, but do they have those horns that protect their skull so well?

Deaf

 

[grubbylabs]

That is why I carry a Smith and Wesson 329 PD It is a 26 0z 44 mag. very light and pleasant to carry. It even has enough poop for the big ones.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...57767_757751_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

But I think by far your best bet is pepper spray. Don't have to be spot on with your aim.

 

[CraigC]

Im sorry but this is almost laughable. So you are saying that there is no difference in lethality between a 38spec 125 gr bullet and a 357 firing the same load? That the difference in a couple hundred feet per second is unimportant?

You exhibit such blatant ignorance and call my post laughable??? Apples to oranges. When you're using a lightweight jacketed bullet that depends on expansion to do its job then yes, velocity is a major consideration. However, heavy hardcast bullets don't work that way. Extensive testing has shown that at sixgun velocities you gain very, very little at velocities over 1200fps. As evidenced by how deeply the 430gr .475 at a lowly 1272fps penetrated as compared to the heavy rifles.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/Linebaugh.Penetration.Tests.asp?Order=5

12 gauge brenneke slug penetrate a lot more than any HC load ive fired from 45colt at +P velocities or the 357 and 44 mag.

What testing? I'd love to know because what you propose flies in the face of everything that has been proven about heavy bullets and penetration. Not to mention bullet design.

I agree with all of this, proof trumps theory.

What proof? A bunch of heresay? How about this statement by legendary Alaskan guide and gunwriter Phil Shoemaker:"The thought of having to deal with bears like this with any shotgun scares me, I'll take a rifle everytime"

Leave your $2000 DSG rifle at home and bring your ~$250 Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 stuffed with Brenneke 3" Black Magic slugs...

Pure, 100%, unadulterated nonsense!!! Anyone who would leave their .45/70, .375H&H or .458 at camp in favor of a 12ga pump is an imbecile of the first order!

We're not talking about hunting, so I don't care about sectional density.

I'm not even sure what to think of this statement.

I care about delivering a large and accurate wallop at close range with a warning of one or two seconds.

Wallop??? Is that your technical assessment?

I know that I can put a slug on a small target (a bears nose) faster with a shotgun than I can with my Guide Gun.

Maybe the solution is to practice more with the more effective weapon than to take an inferior weapon afield???

Sectional Density basically says that small heavy projectiles are just the greatest thing ever and has nothing to do with how fast this projectile is going nor bullet construction.

No, it is just a number. We do not ignore anything like you muzzle energy guys. Bullet construction, diameter and its weight relative to its diameter (sectional density) are all taken into consideration. We just don't put as much stock in velocity, that's for you muzzle energy Kool Aid drinkers. We put all that together and from actual work against flesh over the last century, we KNOW that a toughly constructed bullet, be it hardcast lead or a tough jacketed pill, that is heavy for its diameter (sectional density quantifies this) and drive it to moderate velocity that it will penetrate like there is no tomorrow. Far better than anything light and fast and certainly better than anything with a significantly lower sectional density. Obviously, casting all myths and misconceptions about shotgun slugs aside.

Are you saying Brown bear have the thickness and difficulty of a Elephant or Rhino?

No but they ain't as fragile as deer either and you don't wanna take any chances. Do you really want to use the minimum against a critter with six inch claws that will peel your head and lick the blood off your skull? Ever read anything about a bear attack? I can't imagine a more horrifying death than being eaten alive so you'll have to pardon me if I would not care to entrust my life to a $200 pump shotgun slinging lead ashtrays. Hell no, I want something that will break the onside shoulder (which is all but guaranteed to at least change his direction), smash through the boiler room and exit somewhere near the posterior orifice. Preferably shattering the pelvis on its way out. Notice I also didn't recommend a 500gr in the .45-70. Actually, I'm not really recommending anything. I'm just throwing out this little theory that I have that folks recommend a 12ga pump with slugs because they are plentiful, cheap and easy to procure.....not because they are necessarily the best tool for the job. I'm not even saying that you can't effectively stop a bear with one, I'm just saying that based on everything we KNOW (as in proven fact!) about penetration, there are far better options available. The 400gr .45/70 is just one example. Substitute that 385gr (.500S&W bullet) jacketed bullet in your sabot for a 500gr LBT and I'll happily change my tune.

 

[Justin Holder]

"No doubt Justin, but do they have those horns that protect their skull so well?"

Horns have nothing to do with it, most well constructed bullets can penetrate the horn boss anyway.

But in a charge you don't shoot for the forehead on a buffalo, they hold their head up, so you shoot for the end of the nose.

I would suspect a bear is the same way.

You tell'em CraigC!!!