10mm vs Bear

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If i were in grizzly bear country or even in an hour with big and numerous black bears I'd want to have a box of these. half in the rifle the other half in readily accessible places like pockets or on my buttstock

405 grains @2050 feet per second... will beat almost any 12 gauge slug except the lightfield dangerous game slugs for 3" to 3.5". The key to a big game rifle is you want a rifle powerful enough to do the job but you dont' want too much power so it takes half a minute in between shots.. i'd rather have something like my .45-70 with modern ammo like buffalo bore or grizzly pusshing 400 grain bullets at 2000fps then which I can load 8 rounds into the gun... versus a .458 win mag pushing 400 grain bullets at 2600 feet per second...and a slow bolt and only say 4 rounds to spare. .458 win mags are best for africa when hunting elephants and rhino's out to 200 yards where you may only have one chance and you want that one shot to count.
 

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Craig I'm sorry but you are the one that talk nonsense...for once you live in Tennessee...how many grizzly bears are going around over there?? Not many I bet....

I trust people that been there and done that more than I trust you..sorry....I'm actually been in Alaska few times and I did talk to people....I bought my Remington 7600 30-06 as hiking rifle because a suggestion from a person that has been a field safety officer for an oil exploration company for more than 20 years up there, quite few dangerous encounters and the scars to prove it.....very close range work?? Shottie all the way firing heavy for caliber hardened slugs which the Brenneke Black Magic is the prime example....it is not only the cartridge..it is the platform....handy, manouvrable, lightning fast....
Read about the suggested weapons for bear defense from the Alaska Department of Natural Resources

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You are allowed to carry a gun for protection in state parks. Remember, though, that more people are hurt by the guns they carry than are hurt by bears. Select a gun that will stop a bear (12-gauge shotgun or .300 mag rifle) and practice firing it at a rifle range. Any bear shot in self defense must be salvaged and turned over to the Alaska Department of Fish and Game.

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http://dnr.alaska.gov/parks/safety/bears.htm

Read about this study commissioned by the US Forest Service about Big Bear defense

Do yourself (and to other THR members tired of your ignorant "know-it-all" tirades) a favor and read, read, read before spouting nonsense.

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf

One of the suggested caliber is....take a guess....the 30-06...the only superior cartridges are the big magnums (338, 375, 458 and 460) which fire big bullets at high velocities...

Read on that report where your beloved big and slow cartridges stand (for example, the 45-70)....not recommended...that's right.....

The 45-70 has been recently turned into a decent DG cartridge because new loadings are much faster.....velocity kills....

The only comparison that big and slow proponents love to bring up to the plate when comparing penetration is non expandable bullets with high velocity expandable ones...apples to oranges....

Given the same bullet (shape and construction, let's stay with solids for simplicity) and same weight and SD, the faster bullet will penetrate more...a fact of physics proven over and over..

Now that I did put you (I hope!!) in your place with little things called facts and studies, I hope you will spare us for a while....happy DG hunting in the dangeours woods of Tennessee...:scrutiny::rolleyes:
 
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405 grains @2050 feet per second... will beat almost any 12 gauge slug except the lightfield dangerous game slugs for 3" to 3.5".
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The Lightfield slugs are nto intended for DG work....soft lead construction as far as I can tell....
 
Read this review of the Brenneke Black Magic on Midwayusa

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Eric Morris of Atlanta, GA

This slug is serious business! 3 years ago I went on a buffalo hunt in Colorado. I had no problem zeroing my 870 with its 18" smooth bore barrel at 100 yards with these slugs. Before the hunt I was told that I was crazy for hunting buffalo with a shotgun but let me tell you, these 600gr Black Magic Magnums did the job with authority! At 85 yards these slugs penetrated 3 feet of buffalo entering the near side and stopping under the skin on the far side. The third shot at 65 yards passed completely through the 900 pound buffalo and ricocheted off the ground on the opposite side. It took three shots, but guys with 300 Win Mags and 7mm Rem Mags had to shoot four or five times to bring down their buffalo. I'd trust my life on these slugs!!

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http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=712244

There you have it.....65 yards complete passthrough on a 900 lb buffalo.....
 
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Another bear defense review for the benefit of our very experienced dangerous game hunter of Tennessee....220 gr. Nosler Partition from a 30-06

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Chris S. of Juneau, Date posted: 8/23/2003

This bullet is truly a heavy weight performer king when it come to 30 cal. bullets. I took a nice 7 1/2 ft brown bear with this bullet in 30-06 (2550 fps) that was causing trouble around are camp near Yakutat, AK. the fall of 2001. Shot was taken at 40 yards broadside chest through the right shoulder. Dropped the bear in his tracks. The Nosler 220 Partition drove a ping pong ball size hole through the bear that exit through the shoulder. Impressive! And accurate! It is my go bullet when my shots will be less then 200 yards in the 30-06.

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http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=712244
 
A bunch of heresay? How about this statement by legendary Alaskan guide and gunwriter Phil Shoemaker:"The thought of having to deal with bears like this with any shotgun scares me, I'll take a rifle everytime"
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Hhhmmmm... I live in the middle of the best coastal brown bear country in north America and I've never heard of the "legendary" Phil Shoemaker. Not that I disagree entirely; a good rifle is a good bear stopper. I know a number of bear guides here that specialize entirely in brown bears and of course they carry rifles because they don't know what range they'll need to put down the wounded bear shot by their client.
It's a different job that requires a different tool.
A shotgun is plenty effective as a bear stopper. If you're hunting bears, get a rifle. If you're just carrying a tool to stop bears at close range, then a shotgun will do just as well and perhaps better since it's quicker to get on target.

As for handguns, it's just a very bad idea for big bears. If you're bow hunting and can't carry a long arm, well, I'd feel safer with pepper spray than a handgun.
 
Hhhmmmm... I live in the middle of the best coastal brown bear country in north America and I've never heard of the "legendary" Phil Shoemaker. Not that I disagree entirely; a good rifle is a good bear stopper. I know a number of bear guides here that specialize entirely in brown bears and of course they carry rifles because they don't know what range they'll need to put down the wounded bear shot by their client.
It's a different job that requires a different tool.

A shotgun is plenty effective as a bear stopper. If you're hunting bears, get a rifle. If you're just carrying a tool to stop bears at close range, then a shotgun will do just as well and perhaps better since it's quicker to get on target.

As for handguns, it's just a very bad idea for big bears. If you're bow hunting and can't carry a long arm, well, I'd feel safer with pepper spray than a handgun.
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Amen to that....a little bit of sanity returned to the thread....

Hunting bears?? Get a rifle...Stopping them at very short ranges?? A shotgun with heavy hardcas slugs is as effective if not even more (also because of the platform)...I suspect our friend Craig reads too much sporting magazines...
 
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If you want to read reviews I suggest you check out this link.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/reviews2.asp

"The 45-70 has been recently turned into a decent DG cartridge because new loadings are much faster.....velocity kills...."

Them 540gr. loads are only moving at 1550 fps.

"the faster bullet will penetrate more...a fact of physics proven over and over.."

In certain situations velocity can be detrimental to penetration.


I tend to agree that the 12 gauge and 30-06 are recommended by "the man" because everyone and their dog has one.

No doubt with the proper loadings they both will work, but there ARE better choices out there.
 
Just so you know, them double barrels you see PHs in Africa carrying after wounded buffalo aren't 12 gauges.
 
Them 540gr. loads are only moving at 1550 fps.
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I would not call 1550 fps a stroll in the park in 45-70 terms

Regular standard commercial loads in 45-70 launch a 405 gr. at 1330 fps or so...so a 525 gr. Piledriver slug at 1550 fps it is high velocity (with an extremely high bullet weight/SD on top of that) for the venerable cartridge....you can push them up to 1820 fps with 52.5 gr. of H-4895 (link to the Beartooth website: http://www.beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/archive_open_sight.htm/21) out of a 22" barrel...this is where the 45-70 start to be interesting as a DG cartridge....at 1300 fps?? not so much....if a .45 cal slug moving at 1300 fps were to be sufficient DG medicine, there would be no reasons to have 458 and 460 rifles around....velocity kills indeed....

In certain situations velocity can be detrimental to penetration.
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Yes, if a bullet break apart or expand.....no if it stays intact....

Just so you know, them double barrels you see PHs in Africa carrying after wounded buffalo aren't 12 gauges.
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Maybe you need to tell that to Craig.....definitely not to me...

RS_freighttrain_200912-A.jpg
 
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I think you are failing to grasp the reality of how these events play out.

00 buckshot will kill a mountain goat, but it would be a terrible choice as a hunting tool. A 30.06 will kill a duck, but... You choose your tool based on the situation you will most likely face.

Dozens of people get mauled and/or killed every year by brown/grizzly bears in this state. Most of those attacks (80% or better) begin in one fashion - a bear is suddenly charging from 20 yards (or so) away. He's coming in at up to 40 mph. These events usually occur in thick almost impenetrable brush because that's where bears lay up during the day, and the bear has been awoken (surprised) by somebody following a trail through such a patch. That's how it happens. That's the most common scenario.

So, forget the ballistics (mostly) because what counts is having the best platform capable of putting "enough" power into a bears face with no warning, in bad visibility, on a moving target.

A scoped rifle won't do that very well. A handgun won't do that very well. A shotgun or big bore iron sighted carbine becomes the best choice by default.

How do I know? Because I've been there and done that (with a scoped rifle) and failed. I have the scars and the physical limitations to prove it.

So, what do I carry now (when I'm not hunting)? A 20" double barreled shotgun, because it gives me two shots faster than any other platform. It's accurate (enough) and I'm unlikely to get off more than two shots anyway.

When I hunt (mostly deer), I use a .350 Rem Mag with a scope that dials down to 1X - and I keep it at 1X unless I need to make a long shot and then immediately dial it back down to 1X. It's the best compromise, for hunting.
 
If you are hunting for bear, you may want to be "loaded for bear" as the expression goes.

IMHO
Invest in something like a .44 magnum or bigger if you'll be hunting for bear regularly.
 
Did anybody bother to read the penetration testing report from John Linebaugh, or did you just glance past it?

For some reason you guys keep bringing up that I live in Tennessee. Why is that? You think that because KodiakBeer lives in Alaska that that automatically makes him an expert? How many bears has he killed with rifles and shotguns? How much experience does he have with the heavy sixguns he decries as silly? I spent a week in Anchorage in the mid `90's. It is a city like any other. Do you think the checkout girl at the big two story McDonald's is an expert on bears, just because she lives in Alaska? She's probably never even seen one but probably also knows that moose are a bigger problem than anything else. I have an uncle that lives in Florida. Florida has no plains game, no brown bears, no bighorn sheep, no elk, no moose, no Cape buffalo, etc. Would you automatically dismiss anything he has to say about hunting those critters just because he lives in Florida? You would be a fool because he hunts the world and has for as long as I can remember.

I have never claimed to be an expert on bears. I don't care to be, hunting bears holds absolutely no interest for me. However, terminal ballistics greatly interests me, as does hunting on the dark continent and I am a nut for big bores. I don't need to have killed a hundred bears to know that a heavy, toughly constructed rifle bullet with a high sectional density will penetrate far better than any shotgun slug. There is nothing magic about slugs, they adhere to the same rules as everything else. I'm sorry if I'm not impressed with one penetrating three feet of bison. Not when Seyfried's lowly little .45Colt sixgun penetrated six feet of Cape buffalo. Why don't you read of John Taffin dropping a bison with one shot from his .480 FA, using a cast 410gr at 1100fps? Full penetration.


Read about the suggested weapons for bear defense from the Alaska Department of Natural Resources
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Do you mean the one that ranks a 12ga slug at


Read on that report where your beloved big and slow cartridges stand (for example, the 45-70)....not recommended...
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Yes, but apparently you missed the part where they used a standard pressure 300gr jacketed bullet. Which incidently, still penetrated better than a one ounce slug. Had they tested anything of the LBT design, cast with an alloy of the proper hardness and anywhere 400gr and up, it would've easily placed in the top five.


As for handguns, it's just a very bad idea for big bears.
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Really??? Not a huge bear but taken at 176yds with a single shot with a 425gr .475, that kinda trumps the whole handgun bias and velocity fetish all in one shot, huh?
100_0284.jpg


Or here we can read about Gary Reeder's plan to hunt them with his .510GNR, which is nothing but a slightly shorter .500Linebaugh. For those that don't know, that's a revolver cartridge. Reeder has also hunted the world with handguns, he takes groups to Africa every year.
http://www.reedercustomguns.com/gunnotes/gunnotes26.htm
 
Yes, but apparently you missed the part where they used a standard pressure 300gr jacketed bullet. Which incidently, still penetrated better than a one ounce slug. Had they tested anything of the LBT design, cast with an alloy of the proper hardness and anywhere 400gr and up, it would've easily placed in the top five.
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Read again..the 405 gr. 45-70 ended way back in the list than the 300 gr. (#27 and #30) close to the bottom of the pile....by the way standard pressure = lower velocity (at least in 45-70 terms)....so higher velocity = better results, more penetration (other things being equal)

The Shotgun slug tested was a 2 3/4 438 gr.Foster Slug (hollow and very soft lead)....it has nothing to do with the Brenneke Slug....it is like comparing a light varmint bullet to a heavy solid.....however, that 12 ga. Foster slug performed better than your standard pressure 405 gr. 45-70...read, read again....

Or here we can read about Gary Reeder's plan to hunt them with his .510GNR, which is nothing but a slightly shorter .500Linebaugh. For those that don't know, that's a revolver cartridge. Reeder has also hunted the world with handguns, he takes groups to Africa every year.
http://www.reedercustomguns.com/gunnotes/gunnotes26.htm
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I would LOVE to know who back them in these endeavours.....a platoon of PHs armed with 458 WM???
 
You think that because KodiakBeer lives in Alaska that that automatically makes him an expert?
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Here's 8 videos taken in the last two years showing 50 to 100 brown bears at close range: http://www.youtube.com/user/kodiakkeith

How many bears has he killed with rifles and shotguns?
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Enough.

How much experience does he have with the heavy sixguns he decries as silly?
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Plenty.

BearClaws3.jpg


I spent a week in Anchorage in the mid `90's. It is a city like any other.
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I don't live in Anchorage. I live on Kodiak Island, a dozen miles outside of town in prime brown bear habitat.

Really??? Not a huge bear but taken at 176yds with a single shot with a 425gr .475, that kinda trumps the whole handgun bias and velocity fetish all in one shot, huh?
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So, a guy shot a very small 5 1/2 foot bear with .475? So what? We're not talking about hunting here. Bears can be killed at range with any credible round, but that doesn't make them a good choice for snap shooting in defensive situations.
 
I'm not surprised, for I would not use a standard 405gr jacketed load for anything bigger than deer. Maybe you assumed, maybe I assumed you knew what I was talking about but every reference in this thread was to high pressure, 400gr cast LBT loads. Not commercial jacketed garbage.

Again, you ignore everything I posted debunking your high velocity nonsense but then again, I'm not surprised by that either.


I would LOVE to know who back them in these endeavours.....a platoon of PHs armed with 458 WM???
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Ignorance and stupidity likes this makes me wonder why I even try. Maybe you're the one that needs to read, read, read. I can post link after link, pic after pic, no matter what it is, this will be the reaction. Go back to your regularly scheduled program, i.e. your head buried in the sand.
 
Ignorance and stupidity likes this makes me wonder why I even try. Maybe you're the one that needs to read, read, read. I can post link after link, pic after pic, no matter what it is, this will be the reaction. Go back to your regularly scheduled program, i.e. your head buried in the sand.
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Calm down....keep going and you will get banned...which could do a bit of good....don't beat around the bush....you still have no answered to my legitimate question...who backs them?? You cannot tell them from the link you provided...

Again, you ignore everything I posted debunking your high velocity nonsense but then again, I'm not surprised by that either.
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I read your penetration links more than once..most of the high velocity rounds in the comparison are expandable bullets...try again next time....

I'm not surprised, for I would not use a standard 405gr jacketed load for anything bigger than deer. Maybe you assumed, maybe I assumed you knew what I was talking about but every reference in this thread was to high pressure, 400gr cast LBT loads.
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Again...knock knock...higher pressure = higher velocity

Even the 30-06 rounds tested were jregular acketed soft point...and they trumped your 45-70 by several positions.....apples to apples....

Heck the soft lead light Foster slug did better than your 405 gr. beloved 45-70.....
 
Enough.
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Plenty.
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And this is supposed to do anything positive for your credibility???


We're not talking about hunting here.
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No, we're talking about penetration. Penetration, penetration, penetration. But I see that any example I show that negates your preconceived notions will be arbitrarily dismissed or simply ignored because I live in Tennessee. :roll:


I don't live in Anchorage.
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My point was that simply residing within the state of Alaska does not automatically make one an expert on anything, nor does living elsewhere preclude such.
 
"Occasionally, when impact occurs at short range into heavy game even the toughest hard-cast bullet will deform at the meplat, reducing its diameter. This is most often observed when the impact occurs at short range into heavy bone, when impact velocity is relatively high. This is one of the primary reasons we offer our very heavy 540-grain Hammerhead, as its extra weight mandates a lower velocity, which tends to protect against significant meplat deformation when engaging the heaviest game. Since game such as buffalo and elephant are invariably shot at short range, logic strongly argues for a heavier bullet at lower velocity. In this way, the major determiners of impact stress, the speed of impact and the toughness of the target, do not tend to overwhelm the strength of the bullet."

Yet another explanation why high velocity is not always needed.

Velocity doesn't kill, bullets do.

Some people only hear what they want to hear.
 
"Occasionally, when impact occurs at short range into heavy game even the toughest hard-cast bullet will deform at the meplat, reducing its diameter. This is most often observed when the impact occurs at short range into heavy bone, when impact velocity is relatively high. This is one of the primary reasons we offer our very heavy 540-grain Hammerhead, as its extra weight mandates a lower velocity, which tends to protect against significant meplat deformation when engaging the heaviest game. Since game such as buffalo and elephant are invariably shot at short range, logic strongly argues for a heavier bullet at lower velocity. In this way, the major determiners of impact stress, the speed of impact and the toughness of the target, do not tend to overwhelm the strength of the bullet."

Yet another explanation why high velocity is not always needed.

Velocity doesn't kill, bullets do.

Some people only hear what they want to hear.
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Deformation reduces penetration (dissipating energy) .....WOW!!..a big discovery...exactly what we said long time ago.....

You lower the velocity AND increase the weight AND sectional density....your trade velocity for weight and SD mantaining the overall balance in energy....

And what behaves as solid at 1500 fps could not behave in the same fashion at 2500+ fps.....

Some people only hear what they want to hear.
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Very true indeed......
 
Elmer Keith vs Roy Weatherby

Bigger Bullets!!!

More velocity!!!

I don't think this debate can be won. Better stop before someone gets their feelings hurt.


Hey KBeer, have you heard of them?
 
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