10 mm questions

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loki.fish

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Years ago, I had always wanted the Glock 20 because a 10mm round was new to me. I haven't gotten one yet, as I'm not too fond of Glocks. I'm still interested in a 10mm semi auto pistol though. Two big questions are: What's average cost of 10mm ammo? Who, other than Glock and still reliable, makes a semi-auto 10mm, or does anybody else?

Edit: What's the stopping power compare to? More than .45, less, same?
 
10mm ammo actually isn't that expensive. I think that it's about the same or less than .45 acp. In terms of a great 10mm handgun, you simply can't beat the EAA Tanfoglio Witness 10mm. My gunsmith swears that it is an $800 for only about $415. It's built like a tank. I've shot the one my friend has and could not believe the accuracy, especially while shooting rapid fire. Very tight groups and very low felt recoil. As far as stopping power, it is there, but the problem is that it has so much power it tends to punch holes in the targets instead of lodging inside them after dumping all its energy. I shot one round from my friend's 1911 .45 in the 2x4 backing-support, then put one next to it with the 10mm; the 10mm blew out a bigger hole. I believe it actually nips at the heels of a .41 Magnum, in terms of power. It would make an excellent trail gun. Incredible gun for the money, I would recommend it to anyone. Here is a website with stopping data for different calibers (you might have to scroll down a bit.)

http://www.internetarmory.com/handgunammo.htm

I've heard that a lot of Glocks can't handle the power of the 10mm and can only take so much. It basically shakes the gun apart, after a while of heavy use. But I don't like Glocks, so what do I know?
 
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I've shot the one my friend has and could not believe the accuracy, just plinking (rapid fire!) It was about 5 or 6 inch group at about 10 yards. Very low felt recoil. Incredible gun for the money, I would recommend it to anyone.
Click to expand...
5 or 6 inches at 10 yards?

I've heard that a lot of Glocks can't handle the power of the 10mm and can only take so much. It basically shakes the gun apart, after a while of heavy use.
Click to expand...
A Glock shakes apart?

I'm not sure where to start...
 
OK, the ammo. Check out

http://www.doubletap.com/
or
http://www.corbon.com/

They'll hook you up to comparison shopping. They also can show the relative ballistics.

Then, the caliber. Do a search on this forum for "10mm", with a cup of coffee and a couple of hours. 10mm vs 45acp is a staple. The bottom line is usually that one of each is a good start.

Finally, the un-Glocks. Colt Delta Elite, but it's not made anymore. S&W610 for the revolver types is hard to beat, but it's not made anymore. Kimber is making them, 1911 style, so that's probably a good place to start. But don't ignore Glock. A G20 or G29 will last longer than most shooters.
 
To caviat what's already been said, the 10mm is a great round. Reloaders tend to get the better end of the deal when shooting a 10. Ammo on the shelf is a bit scarce but online you can find it.

The G20 is a fine 10mm platform as well as the G29 for CCW. Other than EAA and Kimber there isn't any more current production pistols chambered in the
10MM.

You can still find S&W 10 series pistols from time to time and they are built like a tank and can handle anything you feed it. Also, the Delta is out there but up in the low $700 + cash range. For the money, the Witness seems to be the ticket if you don't like Glocks.
 
I resisted Glock's for years but now realize they are some of the finest and most widely used pistols in the police and civilian market. Glock's are solid, well made, reliable and reasonably priced pistols. I presenty own a G20 which is the fullsize 10mm and a G30 which is a compact 45.
IMO, the G20 is finest, most reliable and most reasonably priced 10mm pistol made today. As said there just aren't a whole lot of options and the G20 is simply the best available.
The price of ammo is similiar to 45 ammo.
Ballistics I would say are between a 357 magnum and a 41 magnum.
The G20 is a great and IMO possibly the greatest "trail" gun of all time. Excellent power with 15rd capacity. It doesn't get much better than that for stomping around in the woods (which I do alot).

Best, John
 
Kimber makes 2 models of 10MM in a 1911 platform - Stainless Target and the Eclipse Custom. I have the Eclipse. Dan Wesson makes a 10MM as well in a 1911 platform. EAA Witness makes a couple of models in 10 as well as the G20 and G29 that Glock makes (I have both the Glocks). Taurus is now also offering 3 different 10MM revolvers.

The ammo may be a little more expensive and a little harder to get, but you'll definitely have fun shooting the 10!

My next venture is to start reloading.
 
I never owned a Glock, but have been checking them out at the shows. I do own a full size steel Witness with 45 and 10mm top ends. For comparing 45 to 10mm, it is a great tool. I like the 45, but REALLY like the 10mm. I'm more accurate with the 10 and with a 15 round mag capacity, it's equal to 2 1/2 cylinders of full power 180 gr 357 mag in a revolver. Full size Wonder Finish Witnesses were going for $379 at the funshow last weekend. Add a conversion for $200 bucks, and you have a really nice system for about the same price as a Glock 20 in my area.

I bought 1000 pcs of brass for the 10. After the initial investment in brass, ammo cost is about the same as 40 S&W if you reload.
 
I don't reload, know nothing about it and don't own any equipment. I give my brass to friends, but since nobody has a 10mm, I dunno what I'll do with it.

After looking for a while at pistols, I'm liking the Eclipse Custom from Kimber. If I get a .45 conversion for it, I can knock at a 10mm and my 1911. I've always heard good things about Kimber, but they are on the expensive side.

I'm not too comfortable with Glocks. I recently sold my G26 because when I carried, I didn't feel very comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber. Always felt like it was gonna go off if I ran or jumped or whatever. With no external hammer to decock, I didn't feel very safe. The only real reason why I'm trying to stay away from Glocks.

Have 2 gunshows in town this weekend, so I'll look around for a Kimber. See what it feels like. I doubt I'll be carrying it, unless I start carrying in the winter so my coat hides it.
 
Loki.fish, I'll take the 10mm brass of your hands anytime you have some. I'll even add some extra for your time and of course I'll pay shipping as well. PM me when you have some ready to go.:D
 
Ballistically, the 10 is a hot .357 load, not close to hot .41s, though I'm sure there are some weenie .41 loads on the market. The .41 can be pushed to energies rivaling a .44. 1000 ft lbs from a 6" tube isn't a problem. The 10 makes around 750 or so, shy of 800 ft lbs, but still quite powerful compared to any other defensive handgun caliber. It's a great round that never really took off because in police use, it's recoil was deemed excessive. However, same agencies that came to that conclusion routinely issued .357 K frames back in the day, so go figure. :rolleyes:

I don't own one, but it's a good caliber for auto fans. I'm happy with revolvers for outdoor use and carry smaller guns for defense. Got a friend with an AMT Javelina. I wouldn't recommend that one. :scrutiny:
 
What issues has your friend had with the Javelina? With the exception of my used one coming to me with the sights way off and the sight adjustment screws stripped to heck, I've had no problems with mine.
 
Well, like the Hardballer I had, it needed smithing out of the box to feed anything. He had it worked over for reliability and then it would feed a magazine with no more than a feed failure or two. :rolleyes: He could Make it work pretty well with a FMJ truncated cone 200 grain bullet he loaded for it, but hollow points were iffy even after the work and the smith he used was good.

Your used one probably has the kinks worked out of it. Of course, any AMT, now, will be used. Based on those and an Auto Ordinance .45 I had, I gave up on 1911s. I ain't gonna spend three grand for one just to have one that will feed something other than ball. Things are just too finicky. If I'm going to buy another 1911, it'll be in .45 so I can get a bullet ogive (ball) that will feed in it. My Hardballer was reliable with a Lee 200 grain cast SWC. He sold his Javelina after trying four or five different hollow points in vein. I never found a hollow point that fed reliably in my Hardballer, either. If you are a "big bullet is everything, don't need no stinkin' hollow point" type guy, I guess they're okay.
 
Hrm.... Nope. I'd find it very hard to believe that this feed ramp has had any work done to it. Doesn't look polished or expanded. It fact there is a light horizontal scratch across the ramp, so I'd say almost certainly it hasn't had work done.

Regarding JHPs, I've only shot about 40 Hydra-Shok's out of it but never had a problem. None with range ammo either, although some 10mm "gunshow reloads" I had failed to push the slide back far enough to allow the brass to eject.

I've heard AMTs by nature are hit-or-miss. Maybe you and your friend got "misses"?
 
Glocks are safe

Loki.Fish, while the lack of a hammer may make you uncomfortable with a Glock it's a false fear. With their firing pin safety there is no way a Glock will discharge with the trigger being pulled. If they would just go off anytime you ran, jumped, etc. then over 70% of the Law Enforcent agencies in the US wouldn't be issuing them. On the other hand I wouldn't touch a 1911 without a firing pin block no matter how nice the trigger is. (Nor do I care for the free floating firing pin in the M-16 that Uncle Sam makes me use. Now if they'd just put a 50 cent firing spring on like my AR has ... but that's too logical). If you're uncomfortable with the lack of an external safety on a pistol that has 5-6 lb factory trigger pull I can understand that, but the pistols themselves are perfectly safe as long as the shooter observes basic firearm handling safety. If plastic frames or partially precocked hammers/strikers aren't your things thats cool too. I just think it's unfortunate when people knock a particular design for a percieved shortcoming, not an actual one.
 
Maybe you and your friend got "misses"?
Click to expand...

Without a doubt. :D Glad yours works for you. I know the early Hardballers had galling problems with the stainless, but mine never did. Mine worked fine, accurate, no failures of any kind so long as you didn't try to feed it hollow points and it liked the bullet ogive you were feeding it. It was sensitive to OAL, too, not unusual in autos. It didn't like a lot of 185 grain stuff, though. I had a couple of pet handloads for it, one round nose 220 grain cast bullet and one cast 200 grain SWC it liked. I was stuck with that. OTOH, my Ruger P90 has fed everything I've ever fed it since I got it in 1993, has NEVER jammed. The thing is functional beyond belief right out of the box. I wish Ruger would make a 10mm. :D

That Hardballer was quite accurate as 1911s go, better than that Auto Ordinance I had. It wasn't particularly tight, either, rattled a bit. I'd probably still have it, but it got ripped off. :cuss: I got the P90 with the insurance money and haven't missed the Hardballer to be honest. I'd kinda like to have a half way decent 1911 in my collection, but I ain't that worried about it.
 
Boy, what an interesting thread. But here goes...

1. The Witness pistols are very trouble prone. If you get one that works, you're very lucky and should also buy some lottery tickets. If you get one that doesn't work, there is no Hell like that which is called EAA Customer Service.

2. 10mm is more like 357Magnum, not 41Magnum.

3. The Glock 20 and 29 were designed for the cartridge. They don't shake apart. :rolleyes:

4. 10mm ammo is more expensive than 45acp.

10mm is an awesome cartridge to shoot, and the Kimber Eclipse is a sweet gun. However, you cannot get a 45 conversion for it because the ejector is different.

For great 10mm info try www.10mmtalk.com .
 
MCGunner -

Galling was the only thing I was worried about, especially with the long-slide. But I use a couple drops of the same "Super Lube" that I use on my Rohrbaugh 9, and I'm confident that will never be a problem for me. :D
 
I recently picked up a S&W610 and a S&W1076. Not sure how they compare to other rounds, but they both are a hoot to shoot.

The 610 (revolver) will also shoot .40S&W too....
 
Shootcraps Boy,

1. The Witness pistols are very trouble prone.

Really I have 5 all 10mm's all being fed Doulbe tap 200 xtp or Norma power level handloads. All have been getting these loads from day one some over 8yrs ago AND no problems ever. Round count on all 5 fall between 10,000 and 30,000. I also worked at a gun shop and have chat/online contact with many Witness 10mm owners and they have had no problems.

If you get one that works, you're very lucky and should also buy some lottery tickets.

This again I find very hard to believe, but guns are made by humans and humans make mistakes. I just donot believe or know this to be the norm for Witness's

If you get one that doesn't work, there is no Hell like that which is called EAA Customer Service.

If you do have a problem or want something YOU ARE CORRECT THERE IS NO HELL LIKE DEALING WITH THEM. That said the helped me once I got a warm body that gave a crap was good
Instance) 10 round clinton mag body snapped at the indents making it a 10. I contacted them for a new body and I got a whole new mag
 
If your luck with Witnesses has been that good, then you should have a pocketfull of lottery tickets. ;) Do a search for them on this forum and www.10mmtalk.com and you'll find plenty.

That said the helped me once I got a warm body that gave a crap
Click to expand...

And he just left. Mark doesn't work there anymore.
 
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