110 machine guns plus grenades...

[TexasRifleman]

How do you justify keeping GRENADES and GRENADE LAUNCHERS at home? Why would anybody want to have such things?

I don't remember anything in the Second Amendment about showing "cause" to own these things.

I must go read that thing again.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

So the ATF "didn't care how" they got his MGs according to you. You know this because you saw it in your crystal ball? How do you know this? Fact or pure guesswork?

Meanwhile, the good doctor twice gave up his ability to write narcotic prescriptions (but kept his medical license) because 10 of his patients OD'd and died. Sounds like he needs his license pulled. -JohnBT

Look, I am basing the "didn't care how" upon the ATFs actions in the past. THe BATFE has a history of persecuting legal gun owners because it didn't like them. I tend to believe the BATFE did this yet again. Best indicator of future behavior is past behavior.

As for the matter of this doctor and his competance in that profession, they said there was no connection to the bombing of the other Doctors vehicle. There are mechanisms for eliminating one's licensing. The BATFE shoving a boot into your throat while they take your private property isn't one of those methods.This stinks of Branch Davidian circumstances. Koresh hadn't done anything wrong that could be proven, and if an investigation was to be done, it should have been accomplished by the Texas DHS, not 200 screaming thugs, throwing shots at a house that had many children in it.

This guys licensing should have been removed by the Arkansas Medical Review Board.

The BATFE is just stretching it's legs out now because of purely political reasons. This hasn't got anything at all, whatsoever, in the least to do with law enforcement. It has to do with the hard-on the BATFE has had for SOTs and NFA weapons holders for many years now.

 

[TAB]

I'd like to point out, if your willing to break one law, chances are you willing break others. I have never heard of a doctor that got thier lic pulled for writing too many/bad Rxs that was also not abusing those Rxs.

 

[Badger Arms]

CORRECTIONS!!! They got it WRONG!!!

LITTLE ROCK, Arkansas (AP) - The father of a doctor accused of stockpiling more than $1 million worth of machine guns, grenade launchers and grenades in and around his home is a known international arms dealer, and he and his son made frequent trips outside the country in the past two years, a federal agent testified Monday.

Prosecutors and an agent of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives offered no evidence tying Dr. Randeep Mann's weapons to his father's alleged business. However, prosecutors said the doctor's frequent travels, extensive arms cache and connections in India made him a flight risk and they argued that he should be kept in custody.

"I think the quantity of the ammunition is representative of whether or not he's a danger to the community," Assistant U.S. Attorney Michael Gordon said during Mann's bond hearing before U.S. Magistrate H. David Young.

Mann, 50, faces charges that accuse him of possessing machine guns that weren't federally registered in his name and possessing explosives only permitted for military use. Authorities said Mann has a permit from the federal government to sell registered machine guns.

Mann's attorney, Blake Hendrix, said he didn't have enough time to call character witnesses on his client's behalf. The magistrate ordered the hearing to resume Tuesday morning. After the hearing, Hendrix dismissed the government's case against his client as innuendo.

"I'm hearing a lot of allegations and hyperbole, but I'm not hearing any proof to sustain them," Hendrix told reporters.

Mann was interviewed by state police on Feb. 4, the day a homemade bomb severely injured a doctor who chairs the state Medical Board, which had disciplined Mann in the past. However, U.S. Attorney Jane Duke said Mann was not a target of the investigation into the bombing.

In testimony Monday, ATF special agent David Oliver said during a search Wednesday in and around Mann's home in London, Arkansas, police found grenade launchers, grenades and about 110 fully automatic machine guns. At least four of the weapons were not registered in Mann's name, he said.

The machine guns alone were worth more than $1 million, Oliver said.

The grenades, made to be fired from launchers attached to military rifles, cannot legally be obtained in the U.S. by anyone other than military personnel, Oliver said.

"If one went off the room today, it would kill everyone in the courtroom," Oliver said.

While searching Mann's home, federal agents said, they found machine guns lying on the floor, in closets and in safes. The machine guns ranged from M-16s to a tripod-mounted .50-caliber sniper weapon, Oliver said.

"If you were shot with it, the round would cut you in half," the agent said of the sniper rifle.

The doctor also had a briefcase that could conceal a pistol or machine gun, with a trigger on the handle, Oliver said.

Oliver offered scant details about Mann's relationship with his father, Kuldip Mann. The agent said both served in the Indian military. Records show the father once was listed as a resident at his son's home, about 65 miles (105 kilometers) west of Little Rock.

Prosecutors described the pair's extensive international travel as suspicious, noting that Kuldip Mann had crossed the U.S. border, coming in or leaving, 325 times since March 2007, including eight times in a truck. Randeep Mann crossed the border 121 times during the same period, Oliver said.

Kuldip Mann's name did not appear in a search of federal court dockets across the country late Monday afternoon. Austin Banks, an ATF spokesman based in New Orleans, said he didn't know anything about the elder Mann or whether the Indian national faced any criminal charges.

A current telephone number or address for the doctor's father could not immediately be found.

Hendrix said his client's father might be in India receiving treatment for prostate cancer.

"We're not sure where he is," the lawyer said.

Translation: Of the 110 "machineguns" they found, four were not directly registered to the CLASS III dealer... Hmmm. That means an error rate of about 3-4%. Better than the BATFE's error rate if you ask me.

 

[Gamera]

"If you were shot with it, the round would cut you in half,"

I'd like the Mythbusters to take that one up please...
Seriously though, what exactly does this new information mean? I wonder who the four NFA guns are registered to. His father maybe?

 

[Zoogster]

"Okay you caught us lying and exaggerating BUT... Rifle grenades would kill everyone in a room, and the rifle would have cut people in half!"



What else is new. How much of the new story do you think is accurate?

Sounds like it is connected to the new money given to the ATF to combat the arms trade.
The Obama passed stimulus bill gave quite a bit of money to the ATF for the purpose.
Do you think other people are not going to get caught up in the resulting crackdown?
Do you believe the reports or stories of both the guilty and the innocent will not be greatly exaggerated to favor prosecution?
They give a press release or leak info to the media, the media buys it word for word and then further exaggerates it themselves.
The result is the story will rarely be anything close to the facts.

 

[Badger Arms]

Hmmm, so $1M divided by 110 is $9,090. That means that this guy had 110 TRANSFERABLE machineguns? Average going rate for a Post-May dealer sample is $1,000. Think they may be exaggerating? Lucky Janet Reno wasn't in charge of this raid! Wonder if the cat got stomped to death?

 

[techmike]

Of the 110 "machineguns" they found, four were not directly registered to the CLASS III dealer... Hmmm. That means an error rate of about 3-4%. Better than the BATFE's error rate if you ask me.

The NFA Regisstry is famously inaccurate. It wouldn't surprise me to find that all of the Machine guns were correctly "registered."

There is so much nonsense in that article I don't know where to start. To some extent those of us who collect NFA firearms need to do a better job educating other shooters and the general public about our hobby. It would help short circuit the propaganda.

 

[leadcounsel]

Why would someone want to have grenades and grenade launchers?

Well... for starters I believe it's protected under the 2nd Amendment.

Don't believe me... our forefathers had cannons and explosive cannon balls that could sink British war ships. Those were privately owned by citizens.

Again, the 2nd Amendment isn't about hunting, it's about protecting liberty and freedom.

As for this article, requiring registering weapons should be the illegal part... not ownership.

 

[Geronimo45]

What would you need a grenade for? Home defense, people! You hear a bump in the night... "Is that you (insert name here)? No? FRAG OUT!"

 

[seale]

How DARE this man own things.

We are not a free country.

 

[achildofthesky]

I am all for folks having class III stuff, but isnt a single person here concerned that a person from India and his father came and left this country "Prosecutors described the pair's extensive international travel as suspicious, noting that Kuldip Mann had crossed the U.S. border, coming in or leaving, 325 times since March 2007, including eight times in a truck. Randeep Mann crossed the border 121 times during the same period, Oliver said." nearly 500 times in 2 stinking years! Yes the ATF folks sound heavy handed, supposedly the one fellow had a class III dealers license (how the hell does a Indian national get one of those in the first place?). A doctor that had reprimanded the guy is blowed up... The guys father is an "international arms dealer".. Doesn't any of this kind of send a shiver up your spine, or is it all OK??? All 2nd ammendment stuff? I enjoy the heck out of the shooting sports but to me the accusations of this story merit this fellow in jail till stuff gets sorted. The whole buried in the ground thing is pretty hinky...

Yeah, I know, I gonna get flamed all to hell for this but sheesh, what about homeland security and all that *****...

Be safe, and gimme a minute while I don the old nomex...

Patty

 

[grimjaw]

"If you were shot with it, the round would cut you in half," the agent said of the sniper rifle.

You can cut somebody in half with a $20 hacksaw and persistence.

Still, I'm interested to see how this case turns out, minus the exaggeration.

jm

 

[Gunnerpalace]

I cant believe what I am reading here you people are defending this guy?

I call this one, he broke the law, went through all the NFA stuff to get what? 90 FA's and then took a walk on the wild side and got some illegal ones, this guy has grenades buried on his property which from what I have read were not registered, and tried to kill a guy.

Correct me if I am wrong but sounds like he needs to go to jail.

 

[nalioth]

I cant believe what I am reading here you people are defending this guy?

I call this one, he broke the law, went through all the NFA stuff to get what? 90 FA's and then took a walk on the wild side and got some illegal ones, this guy has grenades buried on his property which from what I have read were not registered, and tried to kill a guy.

Correct me if I am wrong but sounds like he needs to go to jail.

I suspect you just set a new world record in 'jumping to conclusions'.

 

[oldFred]

Umm... What if this guy is.... ...head of the state militia.... and umm ... we shall not infringe upon him...

 

[catfish101]

"If you were shot with it, the round would cut you in half," the agent said of the sniper rifle.

I have seen what a .50 FMJ does when a person is gut shot. Although, not a very nice thing to see but you won't be in half.

 

[Zoogster]

Hmmm, so $1M divided by 110 is $9,090. That means that this guy had 110 TRANSFERABLE machineguns?

Correct me if I am wrong but sounds like

He could also have just had a drop in auto sear and a bunch of semi auto weapons in addition to his legal machineguns.
The ATF could then declare every firearm such a device could be used in a potential machinegun.
They can say or declare anything regardless if it would actualy hold up under the law. Leaked to the media or officialy said to the media anything can be implied. It does not have to be in any way consistant with the law.

Those little things on the muzzle of most sks rifles that look like a muzzle break as they come into the country are actualy rifled "grenade launchers". I bet there is thousands of people who have grenade launchers who do not realize it. They would sound quite scary in a report though.

The more a story causes 2nd Amendment supporters to distance themselves from the individual and causes the public in general to view them as a bad guy the easier the prosecution can continue.
If they have to declare they have stuff they don't, exaggerate stuff they did have, say they were racist, predjudice, sexist, had ties to X Y or Z, or anything else that causes others to distance themselves they will.
If you were ever the person in the story you would probably not even recognize who they were talking about, or the crimes they are implying were commited.

 

[paintballdude902]

what happens if they were chalk round? i dont believe those have to be registered do they? so outa 110 f/a's they only had trouble proving 17 were legal what happens if this guys lawyer find the tax stamps in a safe or bank deposit box? will he be able to get his weapons back?

what would sound worse is by stating the fact that it may be illegal to remove the grenade launcher from your sks or else you may lack being 992r compliant

 

[dpeticca]

Sounds to me like this guy is really guilty (and his father too) of running a rather lucrative firearms business.

Let's look at the facts of the case before us:

1. His father has an international firearms business. This is not relevant to the case at hand against the doctor. The BATFE admitted it saying it, "offered no evidence tying Dr. Randeep Mann's weapons to his father's alleged business."

2. He is apparently in possession of 4 weapons out of 110 that were not "registered in his name". Were he to have only 4 registered in his name, and 106 of "unknown" origin, I think that would be suspicious. Being mathematically inclined, 4 of 110 seems to be the kind of number that would express statistical error, the kind that might explain an incorrectly transcribed digit of a serial number of some other such human error.

3. Though I personally am not interested in a 50 caliber rifle, they are not illegal to my knowledge.

4. Is this supposed to be a crime now too? "The agent said both served in the Indian military."

5. "Prosecutors described the pair's extensive international travel as suspicious..." Perhaps it's not so suspicious if you sell firearms, especially to those overseas, which apparently he did. Unless they're saying he was selling them overseas without a license to do so, or violated some laws pertaining to international sale, I just don't see what's the big deal.

6. Interleaved between the apparent "illegality" of the actions above, are the emotional arguments that at first glance appear persuasive, but do not provide support to the claims of criminal behavior. For instance, speaking about grenades, the article quoted someone saying, "If one went off the room today, it would kill everyone in the courtroom..". Now, I'd be willing to bet, that depending on the amount of people in the room and the size of the room, that there is a great likelihood of survivors as the density and area of the variables increase. This is a silly supporting statement. It's the only kind of statement that would help their argument, if they were arguing that possession of grenades were legal only if they wouldn't kill so many people in a room of a given size. Where's the objectivity? Seriously though, I want to know what kind of grenades they are, why the military and only the military can have them, and whether or not he intended to use these, or has used these for illegal purposes. Other than that ,this is just more BS.

Here's another one, "If you were shot with it, the round would cut you in half.." (the agent said). Again, I'm not familiar entirely with the terminal ballistics of a 50 caliber rifle against human targets, but I'd be willing to bet that unless the rounds are made of sharp knife blades, I just don't see how this kind of imagery can be truthful, let alone to provide supportive statements with regard to criminal activity. The only thing germane to the argument is that he did possess a 50 cal weapon, and those are not illegal to possess. To this I say, where's the beef?


This is a house of cards plain and simple. And I think they (ATF) should be ashamed of themselves. Just as importantly, I think the media seems to have forgotten how to be skeptical. Why do we need to pick apart this long article for basic details? Why fill it with emotional statements that can't be proven and have no relevance to the crimes that are allegedly committed?

 

[feedthehogs]

Why would anybody want to have such things

Therein lies the problem with the general gun owners mentality.
The same mentality that elected our current administration.

because 10 of his patients OD'd and died. Sounds like he needs his license pulled.

Unless you tell me the doctor shoved the pills down the throat of his patients, then every bar tender who serves alcohol to a patron who then proceeds to hurt or kill behind the wheel should be held accountable also.

I frankly am tired of being penalized for the addiction of others.

 

[JohnBT]

"He is apparently in possession of 4 weapons out of 110 that were not "registered in his name"."

Possession of 1 unregistered one is still against the law. Bad law? Maybe. Still the law.

Possession of grenades? Against the law. Bad law? Maybe. Still the law.

Think the Supreme Court will change these laws? I doubt it. Not anytime soon.
_________

"Look, I am basing the "didn't care how" upon the ATFs actions in the past."

Right, not on the facts of this case. I'm glad you see the problem with your statement.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

There is an outfit here in Florida, called Weapons Unlimited, the owner is supposed to be the largest international gun dealer in the U.S.. If you are a gun shop you get your guns from him. He has sold massive caches to sheiks in Saudi Arabia, and he has a Class III dealer setup, so I'm sure he sells FAs to these Saudis.

I'm torn between on this one, it seems like he was a dealer in class III who just didn't store the weapons as ome of us would like. The grenades we still don't know if they were active or inactive. If they were active rifle-launched grenades, could he legally sell them is a question that should be asked. You can get the permits to sell stuff, it's just a matter of persistence and having good lawyers. We konw the ATF to be guilty of exaggerating before grand juries and such. There aren't many cases which get televised with ATF guys being witnesses, because most gunnies could easily pickout the exaggerations and potential miscommunications through no fault of the agents, some just don't know any better, it's not like they are real Americans.

If this guy can be linked to the bombing with credible evidence, he's probably guilty, but we don't know. The burying of grenades does seem quite strange, but again, were they active or just hulks of steel you can buy at any military surplus store with the pins welded inside, stashed for a bad day you need to brake out the welding torch and make something nasty for self-defense.

And to this need. Hey if I had the money, I'd have an originally uninhabited island near the Caymans with my own housing setup. 1600 acres of good bottom land in a Pro-2nd Amendment state, a few .50 BMG caliber MGs (ones that I built myself with proper taxes, legal compliance, and whatever BS Nazi hoopla we have to deal with nowadays cause of the traitor scum), a few .30 BMGs, and maybe FA PKT, RPD, and occassional RPK in 7.62x54r. And a couple of gatlings I built myself in blackpowder 45-70 and 45-120. And what the heck, why not, if I can legally get them, a mortar for fourth of July fireworks, and grenade launchers for when I feel like firing off starburst rounds late at night and going "Ew pretty."

Remember the founding fathers wanted us to be on par with those who ruled us, did we forget "of the people, by the people, for the people". A lot of folks, even Pro-2nd folks, thinking we are all supposed to bow down to the government, but to borrow from Reagan "governmnet is not the solution, it is the problem."

 

[Vermont]

Why would anybody want to have such things?

The reason is given in the second amendment. I assume you've read it.
...the security of a free state...

 

[Funderb]

maybe he got the weapons and stamp as part of an estate sale, and the previous owner neglected to mention the buried ordnance?



this really does suck though.