Norinco 1911- Internals?

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Fairly snarky, and non-high road, rellascout.
Frankly, while I was about ready to order an RIA tactical, I found my NIB Norinco for $450 OTD...And, while I may not shoot it more than five or six range trips per season, given the choice between the forged Norinco and the cast Rock for the same price, I prefer the Norinco. They will never again be imported to the US, so it will at least hold it's value, if not go up in value.
If I do manage to shoot it enough to wear the barrel, I will put a new barrel in.
 
Fairly snarky, and non-high road, rellascout.
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And 1911Turner tone recently is not? Is it THR to have one standard for mods and another for the avg user?

I like 1911Tuner. I think he knows his stuff this does not mean I agree with him most of the time. I am allowed to voice my opinion right? I believe he has taken a very snarky tone lately and in his reply to me he employed poor logic and missed my point. I simply attempted to illustrate that point.

IMHO my post is well within the "rules" of THR. http://www.thehighroad.org/code-of-conduct.html
 
Where did you get the idea that I'm arguing anything? I'm relating my own experiences with Norincos and those that I've heard from other people, and making an observation about marketing and the overall utility of the guns. There was a market for'em. They sold like leg warmers in Siberia in certain areas...including around here. I've had very few on my bench in need of anything other than a good cleaning or a spring change for the owners who didn't try to run 25,000 rounds a year through'em. A few needed barrel replacements, but even with that...you'd still have less in the gun than the price of Loaded Springfield...even with the 400-450 dollars that they bring today.

So, you don't like Norincos. Okay. That's cool. I'm not drinking Chinese Kool-Aid, but I recognize a solid pistol when I see one.
 
So, you don't like Norincos. Okay. That's cool. I'm not drinking Chinese Kool-Aid, but I recognize a solid pistol when I see one.
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No I like Norks. I have owned a few of them. Shot them quite a bit. I think they have a cult following because they are no longer available and hardness of their steel. If they were still imported they would be a sub $350 gun here in the US but because they are banned their price has gone up.

They are moving out of their niche market. At over $450 most of the time... they no longer fill the niche you described. If I am going to pay $500 for a Nork I will simply save another $100 and get a good used Colt. Their niche market, a sub $400 200 round a year shooter who is still buying 1911s like the RIA & American Tactical, Charles Daly etc... for under $400 OTD. If you shoot 200 rounds a year its a race to the bottom. RIA more than fits the bill. The $450 to $500 Nork does not.
 
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At the gun show I bought my Norinco at, I looked at many different 1911's. I was not looking specifically for a Norinco.
The cheapest Colt I saw was $750 firm, and looked like it had been run hard and put away wet. The cheapest Taurus was $500 and also look well used. Springfield? Saw a GI for $600. the GI spec RIA was $375. At $450, the Norinco may have been the best 1911 deal in the hall.
By the way, just because an individual only shoots 200rds a year, it doesn't mean they should have to settle for a cast frame,extruded slide RIA.
Someday, I may decide to build on my norc and have a few things done...maybe not. But, if I do, I will have a decent base to build on.
 
By the way, just because an individual only shoots 200rds a year, it doesn't mean they should have to settle for a cast frame,extruded slide RIA.
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What is wrong with a cast frame? BHP MKIII have cast frames. They are stronger than the old forged frames.

Extruded slide.. at under 200 rounds a year its not going to matter. Honestly at 1000 rounds a year its not going to matter. How many RIA slides and frames have you heard about cracking? Lots of small parts reports but not slides and frames. There are tons of RIAs over 10K... rounds with no issues.

Really I like Norks. I am not saying they are not good guns. They are but they have very real limitations and known issues. IMHO they used to be great values but when they go above $400 they are not worth it unless you are stripping it for the frame and slide. YMMV

Just saying...
 
Yes, BHP frames are cast, and they are said to be superior...mine however dates from the '70's and is forged.
My cast 1911 slot is already filled by a Para Ordnance...and now I have the forged Norinco, bought NIB for the price of an RIA.
 
Snark? I don't snark except when I git snarked first.

I wasn't using any sort of logic at all. Just reporting my experiences and my observations and pointing to the obvious concerning markets. There are several different versions that compete for the same market share. When the Norincos were being imported, they did the same. No more and no less.

Observations and experiences...

To wit:

Norincos aren't what I'd call "nice" guns at all. They're fairly rough on average...inside and out...but the insides are easy to clean up. The outsides, I don't give much though to one way or another. Ugly is as ugly does. I've never gotten all drool-y over pretty guns. I admire'em, but they don't hold a lot of fascination for me, other than to look at....like the beauty queen with a heart of pure ice.

The Norincos have proven to be serviceable right out of the box, with rare exception...which is more than I can say for a good many pistols that look better and cost more. Pretty isn't a requirement for me to buy and keep a gun. I look at 1911 pistols the same way that I look at pickup trucks. That it's shiny and came with all the toys is of no consequence. What I want to know is how well it hauls a load because that's what a pickup truck is for, after all.

They are what they are, and I don't pretend that they're anything other than entry level no-frills 1911 pistols. Their main attribute is their reliability and durability, which has earned a few of'em a place in my safe.

If that's being illogical and snarky, I guess I'm guilty.

And...good cast frames are fine. It's the slide that takes the heavy pounding anyway...not the frame. RIA learned that the hard way a few years back, and they started using machined slides.

I like Norincos and I like pickup trucks. Utilitarian is my cuppa tea.
 
If that's being illogical and snarky, I guess I'm guilty.
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Guilty as charged.... :D

When you respond directly to another persons statement with an objection as you have done in this thread you are doing more than Just reporting my experiences and my observations and pointing to the obvious concerning markets.

You are debating your opinion tit for tat against the statements of others, which I am all for. Which I am more than happy to do and will acknowledge which you seem unable to do. You cannot claim to be above such activities while you are neck deep in them.... :uhoh:
 
When you respond directly to another persons statement with an objection as you have done in this thread you are doing more than
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Still unclear how you get snark from that. It's called "Point/Counterpoint" and is a legitimate function of any debate or discussion. I'm no shill for North China Industries, and wouldn't have bought any of their products while the money was going directly into their pockets...but an attempt to set the record straight on the utility and the overall quality of the Norinco 1911 pistols is simply that.

Too many times, an opinion is formed and fomented by people who go completely on errornet mis-information or hearsay...just like the guy who insisted rather vehemently that the cyclic rate of the German MG42 was so fast that there were 3 bullets in the barrel at the same time. In that, is an attempt to explain that it's not possible considered snark? Or is it simply an honest stab at presenting the facts and supplying correct information?

Maybe I should just start letting it go when I hear things like:

"Norincos are full of cast parts and they'll crumble like particle board."

Incidentally, I'm also just as quick to correct misinformation like:

"Norincos are built from the finest materials available."

So...Maybe I should just keep my seat and let the bad information stand.

That wasn't snark by the way. That was condescension.
 
Where have I made any negative comments about Chinese products? Yet twice you have felt the need to bring that into the discussion. You claim not to be arguing or even having a logical discussion then you use it to defend you actions. There is a tone to your posts recently. Anyone with decent reading comprehension can see it . Your replies are defensive. As few mods here have told me in the past its not the truth of what you say its how you say it.

I stated my informed opinion which is that the "value" of the Nork is reduced due to its climbing prices. I also introduced the counter-point that RIA is now filling the role Nork's once did but you ignored that part choosing to present things about the Nork which I did not state as if it were my position. Once again attempting to create a strawman argument based on red herring. Double fallacy... LOL :D :banghead:

In the end Norks are decent pistols. I agree with Tuner that they are what they are. They are low end 1911s which can serve a user well if they know what to look for as you are shooting them in the 5000+ round count range. Their hard steel makes them a good candidate for a custom build if you are willing to replace the barrel and can find someone willing to mill the slide.

So...Maybe I should just keep my seat and let the bad information stand.

That wasn't snark by the way. That was condescension.
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Thank you for proving my point. Admins are allowed to act in this manner with impunity others get told their behavior is not THR.
 
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Yes, the "value" of the Nork is going down as prices rise...but the prices are rising due to the ban on imports and the recognition that the the slide and frame of the Nork is of good quality...better than many. There will never be any more, and if someone wants one, I suggest they do it now.
The RIA's, and now some others, fill the low end 1911 spectrum, as you said. But it has also been said that a $400 RIA with $400 worth of custom work is still a $400 RIA.
I really am not in need of a fully tricked out 1911...in fact, I don't need and actually, dislike the beavertail grip safety, ambi safety, and foreward slide grooves. I like a good. basic 1911 made of good materials.
At most, I would replace the barrel and bushing on my Norc...I may do so just to preserve the original barrel, as it is serialed to the pistol...the 75rds I put through my Norinco were the first rounds fired through this pistol. Accuracy was about what you would expect from a plain jane service 45...not nearly as good as my Para GI Expert, which has a tightly fitted barrel/bushing/slide/frame, and a very good trigger.Yet when I fired a magazine through my Norinco at the 100yd backstop just for fun, I was hitting just about where I was aiming. Reliability was perfect, which cannot be said of many other higher dollar 1911's these days.
Recently, there was a thread on one of the 1911 boards regarding the staking of the safety plunger tube, a known weak spot on the 1911 design. There were pics of this area on several 1911's, including some high dollar versions...some of which did not look too good.
For the heck of it, I took a close look at my Norinco. I would rate my pistol as a 10 in this area...the plunger tube posts extended to the edge of the inside frame metal, and were solidly staked in place. I doubt that plunger tube will ever fall off.
A little detail, but an important one. Norinco was not building a custom comp 1911, but they did make a basic, solid pistol that is better in many ways than the pistols available at the bottom end of the 1911 spectrum today. I'm glad to own one.
 
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I can get a RIA for $350 or so. For the price of your Nork and a new barrel and bushing I can get a used Colt 80 series Govt.

I personally will take the Colt if I am looking for a quality gun. If I am looking for a 200 round a year shooter I will take the cheapest gun that will get the job done. YMMV
 
And thank you for providing me with the opportunity to countersnark, rella.

Anyway...back to the topic, which is "Norinco Internals: Any Good?" and to:

Norinco was not building a custom comp 1911, but they did make a basic, solid pistol that is better in many ways than the pistols available at the bottom end of the 1911 spectrum today. I'm glad to own one.
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Which pretty well sums it up.

Noiw, if we're gonna talk 'druthers...which wasn't the question...Based on what I've seen and experienced with Norincos and RIAs, I'd rather give 400 for a Norinco than 350 for Rock...but that's just me. I know what I'm getting with the Norinco. With the RIA, there's no telling if the MIM is any good or not. I had a helluva time just getting the extractors out of two when they were failing to extract and eject suitably, and had one come to me that wouldn't hold full cock and was burst-firing occasionally. When I opened it up, the hammer hooks were almost gone...and they hadn't broken. They'd worn down to nubbins and the sear didn't look none too good, either. The exception rather than the rule, but there it is all the same.

Both pistols serve a demand in the market. Either one will usually do okay. Some like salt and some like pepper. I wish we could still get the Chinese clones.

Anyway, I trust that this has answered defjon's questions and addressed his concerns despite the side trip. Hopefully he can make a more informed decision now.
 
"For the price of your Nork and a new barrel and bushing I can get a used Colt 80 series Govt."
I have been looking at used Colts...not much around for less than $800, and the ones that are have to be looked at VERY closely...you never know what bubba has done to them or what tortured path they have travelled.
Barrels, on the other hand, show up cheap all the time. There are plenty of take-offs out there, often brand new, never fired.
And, for $450, I have a NIB Norinco which seems to shoot just fine as is, with the option to put more $$'s into it at a future date, rather than spending $1000 all at once.
Frankly, as much as I like the 1911 platform, there are other 45acp pistols I would buy first if I were wanting to spend $1000 on a pistol, and thought I could sneak it past my wife.
 
"For the price of your Nork and a new barrel and bushing I can get a used Colt 80 series Govt."
I have been looking at used Colts...not much around for less than $800, and the ones that are have to be looked at VERY closely...you never know what bubba has done to them or what tortured path they have travelled.
Barrels, on the other hand, show up cheap all the time. There are plenty of take-offs out there, often brand new, never fired.
And, for $450, I have a NIB Norinco which seems to shoot just fine as is, with the option to put more $$'s into it at a future date, rather than spending $1000 all at once.
Frankly, as much as I like the 1911 platform, there are other 45acp pistols I would buy first if I were wanting to spend $1000 on a pistol, and thought I could sneak it past my wife.
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Then you do not know where to buy your Colts. NIB Blued Govts can be had for $700. SS for $750. :)

If you are paying more than $600 for a used 80 is paying too much. IMHO

Your Nork $450 + $150 for replacement barrel and bushing = $600 = used Colt 1911. or + $100 NIB Colt.
 
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Dont see many around here in that price range, in the 100th year frenzy. Not much on Gunbroker either (of course, most prices are high there, and a used Colt 1911 can be a crapshoot).
Actually, next year may be year for 1911 deals, when a lot of people decide to sell the ones they just "had" to have this year.
 
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1911tuner - for a moderator your really getting off track.

Here are your Norico 1911 facts, even with your supporting statements.

Forged high grade steel frame and slide. (agreed)

Poor quality barrels, lugs cut improperly, I've also seen chambers cut off center on other website's from members guns.

If barrel lugs are cut improperly then this also means the slide grooves are not dimensionally correct.

It is a fact norinco grip screw bushing are a non standard thread size and you can not install colt 1911 grip screw bushing in a norinco frame without rethreading the holes to colt 1911 thread size. I am not talking about the grip screws.

We all seem to agree that the norinco internals are rough in finish and fit.

To sum things up if you got a stock norinco that shoots a 3" group at 25yrds. then thank budha for a good gun.

If not your looking at sinking a lot of money into a cheap gun that really has no resale value.

Heres a gunbroker link to a guy that has been trying to sell this custom norinco for a long time.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=219740868

If someone wants a quality 1911 you need to start out with quality gun right from the start not a frame and slide and throw everything else away.

Even a SA 1911 GI model is almost in the same boat as a norinco, I buyer is better off with the range officer or a loaded model.

The reasoning is simple,why put $500 of mods into a $350 gun, that you will be hard pressed to ever resell for more than $450
 
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Looks like we're mostly in agreement.

It is a fact norinco grip screw bushing are a non standard thread size and you can not install colt 1911 grip screw bushing in a norinco frame without rethreading the holes to colt 1911 thread size.
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Never claimed otherwise. I said that standard replacement grips would fit without having to replace the bushings. The internal screw threads are compatible with standard. The external threads aren't. Not a problem if you don't strip'em.

if barrel lugs are cut improperly then this also means the slide grooves are not dimensionally correct.
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I don't understand how you figure they're related. They're not machined as a unit. They're probably not even machined in the same building. The lugs can be off on one without being off on the other. I have noticed that the second lug wall in the slides are usually located about .003 inch too far to the rear...which isn't a major problem to adjust for when installing a barrel. The lower barrel lug is usually located too far forward, but as I said...the barrels are trash.

Even a SA 1911 GI model is almost in the same boat as a norinco, I buyer is better off with the range officer or a loaded model.
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SA GI...Loaded Model...Same gun with different features. Same slide and frame...same 2-piece barrel...same lockwork. Beauty is skin deep unless your criteria for high quality is based on looks and features. Not everyone wants or requires a ducktail and an ambi safety...nor Novak Lo-Mounts, nor checkered frontstraps. Hard to believe, I know...but there are a good many people who are fine with the stock guns, ahd some even prefer them. Is that wrong...or just different?

The reasoning is simple,why put $500 of mods into a $350 gun, that you will be hard pressed to ever resell for more than $450
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I've never sunk 500 dollars worth of mods in a Norinco or anything else for that matter.
Kart barrels have increased quite a bit, but the Loaded Springfield that you mentioned could really benefit from a better barrel anyway. Never had a need to replace any of the small parts.
I've tried hard to break'em, though...without any success. Can't say that for...well...

To sum things up if you got a stock norinco that shoots a 3" group at 25yrds. then thank budha for a good gun.
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I don't recall anyone claiming that a stock Norinco would shoot 3-inch groups. Some will, but it's not to be counted on. What they will do is work, and they're accurate enough to do what they were intended to do. Accuracy wasn't the topic anyway. Small parts quality was.
 
Why does it so often come down to resale value?
I have several guns with more money in them than I could sell them for.
But I am not selling, I am SHOOTING.
 
Why does it so often come down to resale value?
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Thank you, Mr. Watson!

And why does it always seem to come down to modding and changing and customizing?

And why do the guys who do buy a gun and immediately start customizing it assume that everybody wants to do the same thing?

If I want a gun with all the goodies on it, there are several on the market to choose from that already have those things. Get a catalog.

How did we get from "Norinco Internals: Any good?" to how much it'll cost to option it out?

I and a few others answered the question accurately and honestly, and tried to dispel a few notions that are mostly based on opinion and personal taste.

The stock Norinco is fine. If you plan to shoot it hard, you'll probably need a new barrel pretty soon, but the internals should hold up well for the long haul...and when they wear out...they're not hard or expensive to replace. It's a machine. If it's used, sooner or later, something will break or wear out. Nature of the beast.
 
If you were going to accurize one of these norincos for competion shooting even at an entry level. You are going to have to replace a lot of the external and internal parts.

barrel
bushing
link pin
link
all the springs
new detent plungers
trigger
extended slide release
extended safety
sights
hammer spring housing and its internal parts

After replacing all these internal parts there isn't much left, you migt as well replace the hammer and sear along with it.
 
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Note that not everyone who bought/buys one has any intention of using it to play games of "Let's pretend that we're in a gunfight."

Not everyone who bought/buys one has any intention of using it to compete in Bullseye matches at Camp Perry.

Some people just want a 1911-pattern .45 Auto pistol.

Please note that the triggers can be made very clean and smooth without replacing any parts at all...and I can prove it.

Pictured below is a 14-shot group that an active member here shot with his Norinco after I tightened up the slide and frame vertical fit at the front just a little...cleaned up the trigger with existing parts... and installed a Kart Easy-Fit barrel. The gun still rattles a little if you shake it.

This is a 25-yard group...14 shots without throwing away the first shot flyer...fired from a makeshift rest...with PMC hardball. PM "kartracer" for verification and "ulflyer" as a witness.

Total time: About 2 hours.
Total cost: 120 bucks...the price of a Kart barrel in 2005.

He reports that the gun is still in service, and has never failed to function. Round count is unknown, but he's a fairly active shooter.

Other than the barrel and bushing, the gun is bone stock...unless you count spring replacement.

JoesGroup.jpg
 
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