1911 carry

[James41]

I carry a 1911 full sized daily. I carry it "cocked & Locked", a condition that i have been comfortable with all along. On another forum there is a fellow, you know the type, who says he was in the military for 4 years, and was a cop for about 20 years and an instructor for 10..... He claims that carrying a 1911 cocked and locked is dangerous and they should never be carried in such a manner. He says if your going to carry one they should be carried with nothing in the pipe. Of course he also claims that if he can't stop em with a 9mm that you ain't going to stop em with a 45.

Now, what i would like to know is, is there any truth in his claim about the cocked & locked. Putting all preferences aside, do you know of any stats that show cocked & locked to be dangerous. And i am not talking about the occasional moron who walks around with a weapon in terrible condition with a broken safety and starts yanking on the trigger as he is pulling from the holster... that type is dangerous with a water gun...so far i have never seen any stats that would support that claim, if there are i would sure like to see them...

 

[Chipperman]

"You carry a loaded gun? Isn't that dangerous?"
"It darn well better be!"


With all due respect, he's an idiot. Carrying a 1911 cocked in locked is not only safe, it's the way it was meant to be carried.

 

[mec]

During WWII, my father carried a .45 with chamber empty most of the time. It was standard training even then. When they went ashore in some allied but but not safe or friendly countries, they were told to load the chamber and lock with hammer back. Soldiers got only minimal training with the pistol and they were less likely to "go off" due to mishandling if there was nothing in the chamber.

 

[rcmodel]

The only truly unsafe way to carry a 1911 is loaded, with the hammer on the half-cock, or more properly, the "intercept notch".

In that condition, a dropped gun could result in the full impact being absorbed by the sear & hammer hooks, and/or sear & hammer pins. That could result in the hammer falling with enough energy to fire the round.

* Empty.
* Loaded, with the hammer fully down against the slide.
* Or Cocked & Locked.
Are all perfectly safe.

When Cocked & Locked, the thumb safety completely locks the sear & hammer, and totally blocks them against movement. Even if the sear somehow broke and released the hammer, the thumb safety would prevent it from moving foreword.
The grip safety locks the trigger against being pulled.
And the Grip Safety Tang protects the hammer spur from impact.

But in order for the gun to be ready to use, and to prevent accidents due to fumbling with lowering the hammer on a loaded round, "Cocked & Locked" is recognized as the safest way to carry a loaded 1911.

That is the way John Browning intended it to be carried.
And that is the way Horse Calvary Troopers had to carry it in battle.
They only had one hand to run the gun.
The other one was quite engaged in controlling the horse!

Later Military training doctrine when I was in the Army was to carry an empty gun, and only load it in the event of eminent danger.

I always thought that right there was a stupid rule!


rcmodel

 

[gym]

Didn't we just cover this, i'll do a search for the post

 

[Jimmie]

This idea of "Condition 1 is dangerous" rears its head every few weeks on every forum - especially 1911 forums. Check out this over just the last couple.

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=42123
http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=40900

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/cockedandlocked.htm
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_8_46/ai_63772593
http://www.smartcarry.com/cocklock.htm

The 1911 gives you 3 ways to carry, like rcmodel says. Condition 1: C&L, Condition 2: Loaded, hammer down, Condition 3: Chamber empty, hammer down.

Condition 4 and 0 aren't valid conditions for hunting or self-defense.

 

[stephpd]

cocked and locked

+1 for all of the above. Guns are suppose to be dangerous, 1911 was designed to be carried cocked and locked. I feel a 1911 style gun is far safer then any DOA, DA/SA and all the variants. No matter how many trigger and grip safeties they put on these guns they aren't as safe as a gun with a slide safety. I feel the slide safety is the only safety a gun needs. It locks the slide and trigger from working. but one flick of the safety and you're good to go.

If you have a few different handguns try this experiment. First unload all the guns. Second make sure the guns are unloaded. Using all the safeties the guns offer, take each one in hand and pull the trigger. Then rack the slide. The only one of the safeties that will stop ALL functions of the gun is the slide safety.All the guns with a grip or trigger safety will 'fire' and the slide will rack. They don't seem like safeties to me.

Which gun would you want to carry loaded with one in the barrel, my choice is the one with a slide safety. You can keep the rest, I don't want them.

 

[James41]

I wasn't trying to start a which gun is safer thread or is cocked & locked the best way to carry fellows. What i asked was is there any stats that show the 1911 is unsafe in condition 1. So far no one has given one shred of proof that it is not safe. My personal opinion is it is quite safe and i am very comfortable with it. But that again is my personal opinion.

As no one has come up with any such stats i will continue to think that way until such time as i am shown different. Thank you all for your responses.

 

[Jimmie]

You asked for something that doesn't exist.

 

[strat81]

* Loaded, with the hammer fully down against the slide.

The problem with this is getting the hammer down. Requires a fair amount of dexterity and, if you have too much oil/CLP/whatever on the hammer, it can get a bit slippery.

 

[Green Lantern]

When I get a 1911, I'll probably do the same thing with it that I did with my Glock: carry it WITHOUT one in the chamber, (cocked and locked in the 1911s case) then observe at the end of each day that the hammer is NOT down. Provided of course I did my part with safe carry/handling technique. And shortly, I imagine I'll be as comfy with a cocked-n-locked 1911 as I am now with a chambered DAO gun. I have my Glock on my side and my P3AT in my left pocket as I type this, both are chambered, but safely tucked away in trigger-covering holsters.

 

[PCRCCW]

Dont listen to all of the crap you hear from "those experts"...most simply arent what they represent. 1911's have been carried c&l for 100 years and frankly arent any more dangerous than any other gun...in fact they are safer than some.

Carry around your house, unloaded for weeks if you have to just to prove it to yourself..that its safe. If you want to take it a step further, get a series 2 kimber or a series 80 colt and you have a firing pin block to boot.

Shoot well, dont listen to idiots and carry/shoot what you want.

God bless

 

[fubb]

It's dangerous if your the BG

 

[msb45]

Check you weapon

I regularly carry a 1911 C&L. I also periodically EMPTY AND CLEAR the gun to verify working order. C & unlock without grip safety depressed. Pull trigger = nothing. Depress trigger with safety on ,grip safety with trigger on = nothing

C&L with safety off, grip safety depressed, and pull trigger = hammer drops

Bottom line is that three things need to happen to fire a 1911. If you 1911 is in good working order two components have to fail and the trigger pulled for bad things to happen. I think most war stories are a result of garage gun shops doing "trigger jobs". Especially when the hammer was polished and the intercept notch was used for a "half-cock".

 

[GTSteve03]

He says if your going to carry one they should be carried with nothing in the pipe.

Different strokes for different folks, but there's absolutely nothing unsafe about carrying a 1911 cocked 'n locked. It's safer than carrying a Glock with the chamber loaded, anyway.

Of course he also claims that if he can't stop em with a 9mm that you ain't going to stop em with a 45.

This I actually agree with. The 9mm isn't a pipsqueak round and the 45 is certainly no death-ray. Neither hold a candle to a rifle or shotgun for stopping power.

 

[trackaddict88]

"You carry a loaded gun? Isn't that dangerous?"
"It darn well better be!"


With all due respect, he's an idiot. Carrying a 1911 cocked in locked is not only safe, it's the way it was meant to be carried.

+1

 

[Big Boomer]

I suppose all those Glock's out there with no safety are extremely safe now? They must me 90% of all LEO orgs out there have them.

I guess they think they are safe enough, so my 1911's with all it's safety's must be a friggin vault!

 

[WAID]

Oh but Boomer don't you know Glocks have 3 safeties

HA take that whoever was sure to post it seriously!

 

[Technosavant]

With any gun, not just 1911s, I say this:

While the only real safety is between your ears and mechanical devices can fail, if your opinion of your firearm internals is such that you believe they are in poor condition and are likely to fail, the gun needs to see a gunsmith. If a sear fails catastrophically, then yes, the gun will discharge (provided there is no additional firing pin safety). However, like I said- if that may be the case with yours, then either learn to detail strip the gun for inspection, or take it to a competent gunsmith for a safety check.

I worry about my sear breaking as much as I worry about my wheel lugs on the car simultaneously shearing off, sending a wheel flying. That is, I don't.

 

[exdetsgt]

When I was an LEO in California, the officers that carried 1911's always carried them locked and cocked. Being a detective who carried a snubby Chief's Special I didn't know squat about 1911's, so one day I asked a lieutenant who carried one. I guess I said something like isn't locked and cocked kinda dangerous? He said it wasn't. Then he said when you have a second or two to get your weapon in play you lose time operating the slide to chamber a round. Plus, he said, it makes noise.

 

[jaysouth]

I have been carrying a cocked and locked 1911 for almost 40 years. they ranged from rusty GI models to Les baers. I have carried them in my pocket, mexican style in my waistband, plastic holsters, cowhide holsters, shark skin holsters, and horsehide holsters.

I have done a lot of stupid things with a cocked and locked .45 while drinking, carousing, raising hell and riding motorcycles. However, one has never discharged because of a mechanical condition or malfuction.

If you like another kind of gun or you prefer to carry your 1911 in different fashion, that's fine, but don't preach to me about how dangerous a 1911 is in condition one, it just ain't so.

 

[Robert Hairless]

If a cop said it, it must be so.

But I've been carrying 1911s cocked and locked for just a bit less than fifty years. Never had a negligent discharge or accidental discharge either. For what it's worth, I also carry Glocks with a chambered round. Same result.

I am, however, far too stupid to mind being called an idiot.

 

[1911Tuner]

Assuming that the pistol is mechanically sound with all systems functional...Cocked and Locked carry is as safe as any loaded pistol can be.
I have personal experience with a 1922 Commercial Colt that was stored in an attic in Condition One for 62 years following the sudden death of its owner.
After a cursory examination, the gun functioned perfectly with the ammunition that was in it.

 

[CryingWolf]

@Tuner - Now that is just awesome.

@OP - I don't believe there are any statistics for C&L 1911's I am sure that is just a little vague. ND's do happen as with any firearm where someone forgets a safety rule or two. I carry condition 1, if the pistol is in my soft pistol case then I usually have it in condition 3. The idea of which is when it is in a holster then the trigger will be covered, whereas intthe soft case I do not know what is happening inside as I drag it around. I keep my pistol in condition 1 in my nightstand though.

I am sure your not worried about it but if someone is then they should purchase a holster that has a thumb brake that goes between the hammer and the slide of the 1911. I have seen a few.

 

[DMK]

He claims that carrying a 1911 cocked and locked is dangerous and they should never be carried in such a manner. He says if your going to carry one they should be carried with nothing in the pipe.

If he doesn't like to carry that way, that's his choice. He has plenty of options among other guns available. Why do you care what he thinks?

says he was in the military for 4 years

This likely is why he has such a strong belief. Lots of ex-military folks are very adamant about questionable things they were taught by good old Sarg, Chief or Gunnie. Nothing you say or show them will ever convince them otherwise. The military way is not necessarily the best way. In fact, often it is not. (and I mean this as no disrespect to those who have served or their NCOs)