1911 Question - Hammer down on loaded chamber?

[Vern Humphrey]

As noted, some full-flap holsters don't lend themselves to fully closing with the hammer cocked.

When the M1911A1 is cocked, the tip of the hammer almost touches the spur of the grip safety. If you can close the flap with the grip safety in place, you can close it with the pistol cocked.

In more modern versions, with rowel hammers and beavertail safeties, the tip of the grip safety stands higher than the hammer (in relation to the flap.) My USGI holster will take any one of my M1911s, new or old, cocked or uncocked.

 

[1911Tuner]

Flapped

Vern said:

My USGI holster will take any one of my M1911s, new or old, cocked or uncocked.
**************

Mine won't...at least not without a struggle, and the ensuing jammed-in fit
unless I use a really worn GI flap holster. Holsters vary...just like pistols.
Also noticed that many others of the same design won't work well for other people. Certainly not all...but a good many. It wasn't a blanket statement...Just somethin' that I've noticed thru the years. Like anything else...Some will do it and some won't. Boning sometimes does the trick...Sometimes not.

One point stands though...Nay, TWO!

The gun was originally designed for one-hand operation...thumb-cocking and all. Note the original, gently radiused wide spur, checkered hammer. Constantly carrying in Con-1 is a relatively new concept, fostered by Colonel Cooper when he began teaching his Modern Technique of the Pistol. Even though the concept has been around for years, and is widely accepted as "The True Way" to carry a SA Autopistol, it's still a little unnerving to the newcomers to the cult. Some simply prefer not to carry it that way.

Yes...It's the best way to carry the gun, especially if moving in high-risk areas where the pistol may be urgently needed with a 2-second warning.
I am a great proponent of that method of carry, and recommend it in nearly all cases, but I do occasionally revert back to Con-2...*under very special circumstances.*

Yes...Thumb-cocking and lowering the hammer has more potential for sear damage and an AD/UD than Con-1...No argument there. It's an inherently dangerous practice with inherently dangerous equipment...but dangerous things and dangerous practices can be managed with proper care and attention. Live fast draw comes to mind. Practice is the key to managing it.
Being well-aquainted with the manual of arms of a given weapon is a sensible approach...Mastering ALL the functions of that weapon also makes a lot of sense.
Practice...and then carry as you wish. Which brings us to the second point.

Choice. The man asked about the potential drawbacks and possible advantages. Those have been answered. It's dangerous, but it is an option as long as one is acutely aware of the increased potential for an unplanned discharge. Observe Rules 1 and 2, so that embarassment is the only harm that comes. (Yes! It's loaded! / Point it in a safe direction!) Okay...Consider Rule 3 too, then. If you put your finger on the trigger, be prepared for the gun to fire...See Rules 1 and 2 above.

Above all, be careful. It's a GUN fer gawdsake! It AIN'T safe!

 

[ClarkEMyers]

Then there's the Air Police man Chic Gaylord wrote up

Then there's the Air Police man, Chic Gaylord wrote up and showed photographs, who developed his skills from a flap holster with an empty chamber and other assorted techniques. There are indeed unusual circumstances that justify unusual behavior.

Still and all if I found myself rationalizing violations of my own rules I'd think hard about swapping a 1911 for a double action.

 

[Bobby Lee]

Constantly carrying in Con-1 is a relatively new concept, fostered by Colonel Cooper when he began teaching his Modern Technique of the Pistol

You are correct. It is a myth that JMB designed the 1911 with cocked and locked carry in mind for full time everyday carry yet almost every time condition 2 is brought up the 1911 "experts" chime in claiming God and JMB intended the 1911 to be carried condition one.

I know many combat vets from WW II, Korea and Viet Nam that carried a 1911 in combat and NONE have never carried their pistol in condition one. Some never even heard of it.

In the old days of the 1911 lawmen and the bad guys carried condition 2 or empty chamber.

Even Cooper did not keep his cocked at all times.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The gun was originally designed for one-hand operation...thumb-cocking and all. Note the original, gently radiused wide spur, checkered hammer. Constantly carrying in Con-1 is a relatively new concept, fostered by Colonel Cooper when he began teaching his Modern Technique of the Pistol.

While it's true that Browning apparently envisioned a pistol that would be thumb cocked and uncocked, that's not the pistol the Army adopted. And the Army -- not Cooper -- dictated cocked-and-locked or empty chamber carry as the only two authorized ways to carry the M1911. The earliest manual I've read is dated 1941 -- long before Cooper made his reputation -- and clearly says that when an imminent need for the pistol is forseen, it should be carried cocked and locked.

Now, to back that up -- how do you UNcock an M1911 one-handed? Because that's what a cavarlyman would have to do. Which is why the Army rejected the saftyless design Browning originally offered.

 

[Bobby Lee]

The vast majority of combat vets I know carried their 1911 in condition 2 when in combat.

 

[Bobby Lee]

how do you UNcock an M1911 one-handed?

It is not hard to decock the origional military 1911 one-handed.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The vast majority of combat vets I know carried their 1911 in condition 2 when in combat.

Being a combat vet myself (two tours and a bit more in Viet Nam) I can tell you a surprising number ofcombat vets do things the Army does NOT authorize.

It is not hard to decock the origional military 1911 one-handed.

I've got one right here -- how do I depress the grip safety, control the hammer and pull the trigger at the same time? And do it on the back of a fractious horse?

 

[ClarkEMyers]

We can do better than that here surely

For instance http://www.sightm1911.com/manual/manual.htm has FM 23-35 Basic Field Manual Automatic Pistol Caliber .45 M1911 and M1911A1 Prepared Under the Direction of the Chief of Cavalry 1940. Endorsed on behalf of the Secretary of War by G. C. Marshall as Chief of Staff - Offical per E.S. Adams Adjutant General.

The posted example sold for 15 cents and discusses the use of the 1911 from horseback at great length and with pictures. It seems there is a serious problem with follow through as the shooter's eyes leave the target to see where he's going next. Well worth reading.

Page 19 Paragraph 25 sub l In campaign, when early use of the pistol is not foreseen, it should be carried with a fully loaded magazine in the socket, chamber empty, hammer down. When early use of the pistol is probable, it should be carried loaded and locked in the holster or hand.....

My only personal access to earlier manuals - barring the web - is in dead storage.

Jeff Cooper is of course a combat veteran of WWII who IIRC correctly used the 1911 successfully 3 times and used the guns of the Pennsylvania even more effectively. There certainly were folks who carried the 1911 cocked and not necessarily locked in combat - they might not have talked about it much, ask them the joys of some other things they did too -

As for lawman there is the tale of the Ranger who when asked if his method of carry was dangerous reportedly answered "you damn betcha"

Sadly none of the discussion here has altered my previous beliefs and practices the least little bit - but then I've had a negligent discharge dropping the hammer (youthful 40 years and thousands of miles ago) - after I got past the nuisance I decided I was disappointed that the 230 grain ball didn't penetrate nearly so much as I'd been led to believe.

edited to add - And for the record if I had to drop the hammer on a loaded chamber and refusing wasn't an option I'd take a firing grip with the right hand and interpose a digit of my left hand, drop the hammer then gradually withdraw my left hand digit while continuing to ease the hammer down - but it's not an order I'd be inclined to take. I tried it another way once and once was enough. I'd have said that I'd practiced enough empty with my then new and exciting pistol - likely just a variation of buck fever or sweaty palms but it all made a deep and lasting impression on me. When it's hammer down carry in the woods it's N frame for me every time.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I think the quote from FM 23-35 pretty well makes the point. The Army authorized only what today we would today call Condition One and Condition Three -- no Condition Two.

 

[1911Tuner]

Whoa Hoss!



Lordy! These things do hit hot buttons sometimes...

Vern said:

>I've got one right here -- how do I depress the grip safety, control the hammer and pull the trigger at the same time? And do it on the back of a fractious horse?<
******************

It can be done, if done correctly. If I had a webcam, I'd demonstrate it.
Thumb cock and lower the hammer with one hand...and without changing my grip on the gun very much. Well...Every part except the horse thing. I made a deal with hosses years ago. I'd stay offa their backs if they wouldn't stomp my ears off.

I'd venture a guess that a man on the back of a rowdy horse with a cocked pistol in hand would probably just engage the safety until he gets the horse back under control...or jumps off... and not try to lower the hammer or even holster the gun until he solves that problem. If we try hard enough, we can introduce enough "What ifs" to make anything impossible. And yep...We did a lotta things that Uncle Sugar didn't authorize. No...We won't speak of it at great length.

Clark...Vern...Guys...Condition 2 isn't high on my list either, and I generally advise against it. I carry mine in Con 1 about 14 or 15 hours a day, most days...No sense in using two separate states of readiness and take a chance on forgetting which one it's in if things should get suddenly informal. Only makes sense to stick with one method. BUT...When I take the occasional jaunt into the boondocks on one of these 4-wheel motor-powered contraptions, I carry in a flap holster in C-2. I can still operate it one-handed in both directions if I have to, and without shooting myself or anyone else in the process. Practice it dry...It can be done. If you have no interest in mastering the drill, notta problemo. Others may be interested in learning it...They've been amply warned of the inherent dangers involved, and the choice is theirs.

As far as what is "Safe" and what isn't...Remember that the early pistols that Browning submitted to the Army didn't even have a manual safety, and relied on the grip safety only. The Army requested the thumb safety so the troops wouldn't shoot their rowdy horses while trying to regain control of the beasts.

Bobby Lee...The authorization to carry in Con-1 was limited to "Action Iminent"...after which it was supposed to be returned to stand-down mode/Condition 3, or even "Clear." To say that the gun was "designed" to be carried in Con-1 is a gross misstatement. That it lends itself to that mode
is a major advantage of the design, but saying that it's to be carried that way "by design and intent" may be stretching it a bit...so we're in agreement all the way. I'd guess that the Army authorized one thing, and that the troops who were getting shot at did pretty much as they damn pleased is likely closer to the truth. The regs get more vague the farther from Division ya get.

 

[jem375]

the 1911 was designed so the cavalry could use it one-handed while hanging on to the reins of a horse with the other....the cavalry wanted to stay with the 45 LC instead of the 1911 which the army wanted for more firepower..I have carried in condition 2 for many, many years when I was just walking in the woods and etc...Now that I have my CC permit finally, will carry in condition 1 if carrying for SD, but if I am going down to the back waters of the river for target practice, see no need for cond. 1, of course the trees could attack me but will take the chance..........it is also very easy to let the hammer down if you know what you are doing...I have 2 Witness 10MM's DA/SA that have no decocker and so if I want to have it in DA, I have to let the hammer down on a live round and even the manual tries to tell you how to do it.....I guess the point is:...if you can, do it...if you can't ..do cond.1..

 

[carebear]

I guess my question is, what is the "upside" to C-2?

About the only practical reason I've read so far is to fit in a holster.

What does Cond. 2 get you (in terms of speed, safety or functionality) that 1 or 3 doesn't?

It seems like the only reason given FOR C-2 is some sort of mental comfort at not having the hammer cocked.

 

[jem375]

I'm not looking for speed, when I am not carrying the 1911 for SD....If I am carrying for SD, probably will carry in cond. 1......

 

[Vern Humphrey]

It can be done, if done correctly. If I had a webcam, I'd demonstrate it.

But how'd you like to be in the midst of a dozen or more 19-year old cavalrymen, on crow-hopping horses, while THEY did it?

Thumb cock and lower the hammer with one hand...and without changing my grip on the gun very much. Well...Every part except the horse thing. I made a deal with hosses years ago. I'd stay offa their backs if they wouldn't stomp my ears off.

That's the problem -- the Army bought the gun for cavalry use. Whatever was done had to be done on horseback -- and you couldn't count on the horse's complete cooperation.

I'd venture a guess that a man on the back of a rowdy horse with a cocked pistol in hand would probably just engage the safety until he gets the horse back under control...or jumps off... and not try to lower the hammer or even holster the gun until he solves that problem. If we try hard enough, we can introduce enough "What ifs" to make anything impossible. And yep...We did a lotta things that Uncle Sugar didn't authorize. No...We won't speak of it at great length.[/quote]

In this case, it isn't "what ifs" but "dead certainties." The gun WAS intended for combat. It WAS intended for mounted combat. It HAD to be fully operational with one hand.

As far as what is "Safe" and what isn't...Remember that the early pistols that Browning submitted to the Army didn't even have a manual safety, and relied on the grip safety only. The Army requested the thumb safety so the troops wouldn't shoot their rowdy horses while trying to regain control of the beasts.

Bingo! The M1911 is what the Army needed, not what Browning though they needed.

The regs get more vague the farther from Division ya get

And a lot of people get killed by careless handling of guns, claymores, and so on. When I was a company commander, I made sure my people followed the rules -- and had far fewer accidents than any other companies in my battalion.

 

[Majic]

What does Cond. 2 get you (in terms of speed, safety or functionality) that 1 or 3 doesn't?

Absolutely nothing. Speed is not always required or sought after. Safety is a function of the shooter. The pistol will still be functional once it's put in it's firing mode which also applies to the other 2 conditions.

It seems like the only reason given FOR C-2 is some sort of mental comfort at not having the hammer cocked.

The reason for condition 2 is that it's just another option for the pistol. You may see the reason as a comfort, but someone else may see something else. If I keep a 1911 for HD then it will be laying around in condition 2.

 

[ClarkEMyers]

A place for hammer down on a loaded chamber?

For my money fitting a holster isn't it - but I can imagine hammer down on a loaded chamber for the proverbial nightstand gun.

The rationale might be that drowsy or not recently practiced makes hammer down better than cocked and locked for off-body.

Easier to cock the hammer one handed or weak handed or for a typical child or spouse potentially much easier than racking the slide (especially with heavy springs and flat bottomed firing pin retainers) - I can see someone dropping the hammer on a loaded chamber and leaving the pistol for a spouse or child. I might even do it myself, but not one handed - guess I'll have to wait for that web cam. Next topic - why some very fancy and expensive fast draw holsters have splash shields.

 

[1911Tuner]

Imagine

ROFL Vern...Point taken. It would be about as bad as midnight with the flares up in the middle of a CFD and a fire team jumpin' around with 16s on overdrive.

Then it's discovered that a rock ape and a nervous kid with a frag is what threw the base camp on "red." Just another one of those things that made the 'Nam so interesting...

Clark...If you're ever in my neck of the woods, drop in for some serious turbo coffee and a demo of the technique. It works well and can be done smoothly, safely, and fairly quickly in cocking...presentation...target aquisition...returning to Con-2, and finally reholstering...all with one hand.
I'm not hard to find...5 minutes from a major highway...I-85, about halfway between Charlotte and Durham, NC. The offer stands. I really ain't a bad sort. Ask anybody from here who's stopped by.

I don't recommend it unless one is willing to practice it extensively...but the function is there, so why not learn to use it?

Condition Two isn't anything approaching the ideal, and I rarely use it...but I want to be adept with it should I ever need to, even though the need may never arise. After all...we practice for what probably won't happen, but just might. With Murphy, all things are inevitable.

 

[carebear]

Tuner,

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but

I rarely use it...but I want to be adept with it should I ever need to

Could you give just one example of where you might "need to" that simply putting the thumb safety on would not suffice (for safety or any other reason)?

That's where I'm running into problems, I can't think of one.

 

[1911Tuner]

Example

Howdy carebear...Notta problemo mah fren. It's been covered in my replies here, but a quick recap...

Boondocks...Rough terrain...Full flap holster needed to better protect gun from hard knocks, dirt, dust, etc...one that doesn't allow Condition one
with the flap fastened down, but still want to retain ability to manipulate the gun with one hand. I admit that I rarely go into that sort of situation these days...but sometimes I still like to climb on the ol' 4-wheeler and go for a
quick jaunt in the boondocks. Reminds me of better days when I didn't have to have a mirror to see all the places that I hurt when I first get up.

Sometimes I even use that archaic old lanyard loop for what it was designed for.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I use the lanyard loop -- I do a lot of riding, and a lanyard makes sense on horseback (and while parachute jumping, too.)

But if the holster doesn't fit the gun, why not either break it in or get another holster?

 

[Edgeofthewoods]

Ok well...........

What about that new thingy from Cylinder and Slide? Kind of looks at the best of both worlds. Imagine a decocker for a SA 1911 A1. Looks kind of neat, but I am a bit slow to try to buy one since it cost almost 1/2 of the original sales cost of my SA 1911A1 (WW2 GI) But it looks like it could fill a need point fo folks who want hammer down CON2 carry and C&L CON1 carry.
Any ideas on this thing?



Chuck

 

[ClarkEMyers]

Oh, I've been practicing but will certainly take the coffee

Oh, I've been practicing - probably all wrong(?) - but will certainly take the coffee.

DON"T DO THIS AT HOME - I noticed my carry guns (only have 2 - 2 is 1; 1 is none) have high style hammers (can't really say Commander style but boy are they stylish!) and hammer recesses in the beaver tails.

From a firing grip I lift the thumb up to the front of the hammer which pulls my palm off the memory pad but allows me to depress the beavertail by overcocking the hammer - press the trigger and let the hammer down. Still not ready to do it live and may never be. I'll have to compare and contrast with a 1911A1 (currently wearing a Service Ace kit, don't want to do it with a rimfire) - I don't have a 1911.

I'd like something along the lines of the Dan Wesson Global Hunter (6" slide in 10mm, I tried to order one once) but I'll always go revolver in the woods. Really I prefer to carry a revolver generally but life is triggering some interesting urges to carry combat arms these days. I probably should talk to you or Bob and Barbara Thompson about getting a smart dog to do my worrying for me.

 

[1911Tuner]

New Thingy

Howdy EdgeoftheWoods,

That thing is actually pretty old...It just hasn't been very popular. I've seen one. It worked as advertised, but seems a bit busy for a lifesaving tool...at least in my view. In other words...The more gadgety it is, the more Murphy it gets. More intricate parts provides more opportunity for somethin' to go
fugasi. Murphy crashes my parties often enough without handin' him an engraved invitation. The standard design 1911 is as safe in Condition One
as any SA auto can be, and I'm comfortable carrying it like that day in, day out. Have known of one pistol that lay in an attic for 62 years in C-1.
When test-fired, it functioned perfectly with the magazine and ammo that was in it. On teardown and inspection, the lockwork was just like the day it was built.

Vern...I've tried reboning my two holsters. Works for a while, then the leather swells back up in the NC humidity, and it's back to same-same. The Bianchi UM-84 will accept the gun with a lot of gruntin' and strainin' and stretchin' of the elastic...and takes a hard pull to release it. S-L-O-W into play. I gave up. Like I said, I rarely carry the gun like that, and I can deal with it once or twice a year...and I'm fairly adept at handling the gun one-handed. The practice certainly isn't for everybody, but it suits me on occasion. It may suit some others as well. Again...Practice it diligently.
Decocking won't likely need to be done in a hurry, so all due caution can be used for that. Doing it smoothly is the key. It also helps to have a failry long thumb, so that the first joint will line up with the tip of the hammer spur
when the thumb is pointed straight up. Done correctly, the grip safety will remain in the safe position until the hammer hits it. As the hammer is cocked, the pad hooks over the face of the hammer, and positively captures it. By the time the tip of the thumb touches the slide, the hammer is fully cocked.

 

[brickeyee]

"What about that new thingy from Cylinder and Slide?"

Nothing is made more reliable by adding parts.