The Patrol Rifle Concept

[Cosmoline]

My recent experimentations with the CZ-527 have got me thinking about what might be termed the "Patrol Rifle" concept. It's certainly not a new idea. The Winchester '92 in .44-40 was used extensively by police and paramilitary forces in North America. Even the Guardia Civil in Spain used one. The Spanish police in particular seemed to love the idea, and later adopted the 9mm Largo "Destroyer Carbine." The modern versions can be seen in the CZ-527 and the Remington 7600.

These long arms tend to be classified as either carbines or rifles depending on whether they fire traditional rifle or traditional handgun amuntion. I think it might be useful to start thinking about them as their own class. Specifically, as a type of long arm of particular dimensions useful for home defense or police applications. Here's some general parameters:

Cartridge: Sufficiently powerful to kill a man with a single shot out to 100 meters, not so powerful as to slow down followup shots or throw too large a flash. .223, .357 Magnum, 7.62x39, .30-30, possibly .308 at most.

Weight: No greater than 6.5 lbs., preferably between 5 and 6 lbs.

Barrel: 16 1/2" to 20"

OAL: 35"-45"

Balance: Barrel-light

Sights: Iron or red dot

Action: Pump, bolt, lever, or semi. No selective fire.

Capacity: 5 to 15 preferable depending on cartridge type due to weight and balance considerations.

Application: Law enforcement, home defense, brush hunting, or any other conditions where a longer rifle can be an impediment.

 

[AStone]

I want this one.

Not my highest priority,
which is a Browning A-Bolt in 7mm08.

But, given that the Rem 7600P is a pump,
like my beloved 870P, yet available in both .308 & .223...
well, that just says to me, fine gun.

 

[seeker_two]

Excellent topic, Cosmoline...

I like the 7600/7615 concept, too. Too bad Remington charges $800+ each for them. (C'mon, guys. You can get a decent AR for that. Get competetive. For $800, you could do a matched pair of 7615 & 870...)

Why not a semi-auto? I'm not just talking about AR's & AK's, but some other good ones also exist. I think the lightweight Browning BAR's would be a good choice, and the Benelli R1's wouldn't be so bad (esp. if more calibers/barrel lengths were offered).

QUESTION: What should be the primary sighting system for a patrol rifle? (iron sights...1x red-dot/ACOG...scout scope...3x9 variable...)

And should the perfect patrol rifle have iron sights as a backup?

Let's get thinking, people...

 

[355sigfan]

The patrol rifle concept in the LE world today is a semi auto 223 carbine. The reason for their use was made obvious by the LA Bank Robery. Active shooters are also a huge reason to have 223 carbines. You need a gun with limited over penetration and with high capacity that is easy to shoot. I just don't see levers, bolts or pumps doing this job very well. Get yourself a good Semi auto carbine a M4 type gun preferably.
Pat

 

[Teufelhunden]

I'm saving up for a Krebs Custom KTR-03S. Though I qualified as an expert every time with the M16A2 while I was in the Marine Corps, I never really got to like it. Never had any jamming or breaking problems or any other of the perceived ills of the design, it just doesn't feel good to me. For some reason, I took a liking to the AK design. I've not yet decided whether I'll order the Krebs in 7.62 or 5.45--both seem to have their adherents, and the Soviets did switch to the 5.45 for a reason...

Aside from the action, this design meets all of your criteria.

-Teuf

 

[Cosmoline]

Why not a semi-auto

Actually, as long as they are not selective fire a semi would fit fine. Indeed it's better IMHO to view them as "Patrol Rifles" than some sort of quasi "Assault Weapon." As it stands now we reject the classification of the AWB but we don't really have a classification to replace it.

You need a gun with limited over penetration and with high capacity that is easy to shoot. I just don't see levers, bolts or pumps doing this job very well

Actually, overepenetration is a function of bullet design, not cartridge type. Also, high capacity is only needed if you're going to use the firearm for military-style suppressive fire or the sort of marsh-clearing they do in Iraq. For legal reasons these aren't really on the table for LEO's or civilians. You could have a patrol rifle with a high cap, but you wouldn't really need it. OTOH Hague would be totally inapplicable, so the best bullets could be chosen for the arm. Early expanding HP's would resolve any overpentration concerns and add enormously to the lethality of the round.

 

[Foxtrot427]

I bet youd do well with a M1 carbine

 

[Cosmoline]

The M-1 carbine is borderline, due to its weak and restricted cartridge.

 

[chrisTx]

patrol rifle meets the 'one up' requirement. police always have to 'one up' the bad guy. he acts aggressive, you pull a taser or spray. he hits you, you pull a baton. he pulls a knife, you pull a pistol. he pulls a pistol, you pull a rifle. he pulls a rifle, you just be the better shot.

 

[rockstar.esq]

Seems like Remington's got a little price confusion going with the 7615 line. Asking that much for an innacurate rifle that's been in and out of their catalog under different guises for at least the last twenty years seems a little silly. As I see it, the main "improvement" they made was two fold. In the .223 they modified the magazine well to accept most AR type mags. This I think was a great idea. Now why didn't they do this with the .308? I fail to see why the AR-10 mag or the FAL mag couldn't have been fitted to the rifle thus making it more marketable to the "tactical" market. The second improvement was the addition of Wilson ghost ring sights. Finally a new rifle from Remington with Ghost rings as an option! Of course the next step into the heart of Blackticle craziness would be to make the forend some form of rail network allowing the "operator" the opportunity to mount a flashlight, laser, grenade launcher, and lawyers desk to it! As for the concept of a pistol caliber rifle, I hate to say it but I believe those day's are done. Cosmoline pointed out the sound arguements for using rifle ammo with appropriate bullet designs. Carrying that a step farther, the rifle cartridge has the advantage of being "point of aim" for a much wider range of distances thus reducing the chance of a miss and the associated liability. This is why many trainers teach "...use a handgun to fight your way to your rife..."

 

[.45Guy]

I suppose my deer rifle would fit the concept. 6 rounds of 7.62x39, weighs in at roughly 5 pounds, and is 36" OAL. Fairly accurate to boot.

 

[Cosmoline]

Yes, that's just the sort of thing. It is odd how so many rifles from different nations and different construction tend to move towards the same form. Your garage M-C looks like a Destroyer which looks like a CZ 527 which handles like a spikehorn which looks like a a short barrel '92. Form is following function over and over again. I'm suggesting we start recognizing the breed as something distinct.

 

[JShirley]

So, I'm hearing you mean to say

Sufficiently powerful to stop a man with a single shot out to 100 meters

 

[Spec ops Grunt]

Winchester 1300

J/K A lever gun in 30 WCF would be perfect.

 

[Cosmoline]

Don't start that argument again.

 

[lawson]

my new Marlin 1894C would fit the bill nicely. 9 shots of .357 Magnum and a red dot scope on a quick-release mount. 18.5" barrel, 36" OAL.

 

[kentucky_smith]

Light, 7.62x39, 16" barrel, now with tech-sights. Works for me.

 

[Bruuin]

What about the FN Patrol rifles?

http://www.fnhusa.com/contents/r_pbr_home.htm

 

[Cosmoline]

I'd actually classify the FN Patrol Rifle as a field sniper rifle. They use high powered optics and are accurized for precision shots. I also believe with a large scope they'd be too heavy.

 

[Spec ops Grunt]

A Springield 1903, Mauser 98, Mosin Nagant, Enfield, or M1 Garand would go good.

 

[Ivy Mike]

The FN Patrol Bolt Rifles are nice, but I say they are too expensive.
You get a very precise bolt rifle in .308 with a 4 round capacity and no iron sights. You now have to buy optics which adds to the price.
You could buy a similar weapon from Savage or CZ for less and probably get iron sights. In fact, The Remington 710 fits that role perfectly except for the iron sights. It comes with a scope from the factory. Inexpensive and accurate enough.

I think something like the SKS or Mini-14 is about ideal. M1 Carbine would be as well. Before someone calls it weak, please remember that it is more powerful than ANYTHING a cop will have on his/her belt.

I don't care much about capacity limits and what they mean. I can own a 30 round magazine and that about evens things up.

If I had officers to equip, and could design a rifle, I would use an SKS that takes AK magazines and mount the thing in a light, polymer stock. Load it with softpoints and drop it in the patrol car. Never have to worry about it (unlike a tacticool AR) and if it ever breaks, parts are dirt cheap and widely available.

 

[Zundfolge]

I read this thread and it looks like everyone is dancing around the obvious choice.
So I gotta ask, why NOT the AR-15?

Most departments already have them.

The manual of arms is simple and many cops already know it.

 

[FilJos]

patrol rifle meets the 'one up' requirement. police always have to 'one up' the bad guy. he acts aggressive, you pull a taser or spray. he hits you, you pull a baton. he pulls a knife, you pull a pistol. he pulls a pistol, you pull a rifle. he pulls a rifle, you just be the better shot.

Sort of like: "You wanna know how you do it? Here's how: They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue!"

 

[mustanger98]

I think something like the SKS or Mini-14 is about ideal. M1 Carbine would be as well. Before someone calls it weak, please remember that it is more powerful than ANYTHING a cop will have on his/her belt.

I agree. While I'm not a fan of the SKS, I do like Mini-14 and M1 Carbine. That's just me and my preferences. Who's calling the M1 Carbine weak? My Grandpa was a WW2 vet who drove trucks on the Red Ball Express and he had the Carbine and all the mags he could get in the truck with him. He always spoke highly of it and his issue 1911A1.

For a light handy levergun, I like Winchester's 94AE in .44mag or .45Colt (and I'll have a sixgun in the same caliber as my carbine). 9 +1 capacity and add an aperture rear... maybe a Williams Guide or some sort of ghost ring depending on who's preferring what. Those have 16" barrels, so they're not too forward heavy to begin with.

Have I ever mentioned how much I like my M1 Garand?

 

[mustanger98]

I read this thread and it looks like everyone is dancing around the obvious choice.
So I gotta ask, why NOT the AR-15?

Maybe because not all of us prefer it. Hang all the "tacticool" toys on it and you might as well be lugging the SAW around, but we ain't talking military or police, IIRC. As civilians we get to choose what we like and not what the gov't agencies choose to issue for political reasons. Some of us, like myself, like leverguns. Some guys can't seem to grasp why, but they probably never shot one in their lives thinking levers are too old fashioned. OTOH, a Winchester or Marlin rifle or carbine will work when a lot of other designs are choked or broke. And I said what I said in my last post about the M1 Carbine which used to be used by police too. I'm sure this is bound to spark an arguement about AR-15 vs. personal preference. But us private citizens... we carry and shoot what we like and what suits our needs. Anybody who don't like it that I often choose my lever action saddle carbine or deer rifle can get over it. Nobody tells me what guns to like. I don't tell others not to like AR's, but I do tell 'em why their arguements don't hold water as to why I should have one.