22 magnum as a self defense round
- Thread starter vito
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favorite .22
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well out of a small pistol or revolver which would be better? ..22 lr,.22 mag, or .25 acp
well for a close encounter.
well for a close encounter.
ChefJeff1
Member
A friend of mine was shot with a .22. It went through his thigh and he drove himself to the hospital.
MachIVshooter
Member
Where revolvers are concerned, the feeding problems encoutered with rimmed cartridges in autoloaders are a non issue. That said, rimfire cartridges are known to be less reliable than centerfire. This reputation is probably due in no small part to the way your standard rimfire (.22 LR) is manufactured; huge quanitities, inexpensive materials. I would venture to say that .22 WMR is held to a higher standard. For one, they are of more conventional design (bulet diameter smaller than case dia.). Secondly, they use conventional copper jackets. Just compare a .22 LR cartridge with a .22 WMR and you will see the QC differences.
Between the three you mention, .22 WMR.
Between .22 LR and .25 ACP, I'd take the .25. Despite popular belief, the .22 LR and .25 ACP are all but identicle power-wise from short barrels (published .22 LR ballistics are generally taken from rifles). The .25 ACP has the advantage of centerfire reliability and the smoother feeding of a semi-rimmed cartridge, as well as better bullet construction.
ModernTechnician
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Armchair theorists and theoretical stopping power
Been through all of this debate before. Nothing I can say will dissuade the minimalists and know betters; even 3 tours of duty during the war in a Marine Recon Company or a career as a Police Officer.
Suffice it to say that
One: If you are forced to defend yourself it will probably be dark…
Two: You will probably have barely enough time to get a good shot off…
Three: Your opponent will probably have already self-medicated…
I pray none of you proponents of miniscule stopping power make a good enough argument that others might listen. Your own foolish death is sad enough, but convincing others to die the unnecessary death of a fool seems a sin of unimaginable proportion.
I’d suggest novices and the uninformed NOT pay any attention to this thread at all!
However I hope the bad guys adopt your position!
Been through all of this debate before. Nothing I can say will dissuade the minimalists and know betters; even 3 tours of duty during the war in a Marine Recon Company or a career as a Police Officer.
Suffice it to say that
One: If you are forced to defend yourself it will probably be dark…
Two: You will probably have barely enough time to get a good shot off…
Three: Your opponent will probably have already self-medicated…
I pray none of you proponents of miniscule stopping power make a good enough argument that others might listen. Your own foolish death is sad enough, but convincing others to die the unnecessary death of a fool seems a sin of unimaginable proportion.
I’d suggest novices and the uninformed NOT pay any attention to this thread at all!
However I hope the bad guys adopt your position!
vito
Member
I started this thread and nothing so far has made me think that the 22 in any form is a reasonable self defense round. I won't say I carry, since such is illegal here in Illinois, but if I chose to do so I will stick with my S&W 640 with 357 mag JHP rounds. If 5 of these won't do the job then I'm really in trouble.
runninmike
Member
I would not chose a .22 mag for defense, but I would feel confident with it if I had only 1 handgun. They are deadly on coyotes and similar smallish varmints, and many folks use them for food gathering.
I personally find that my 9.5" bbl Ruger super single-six is dramatically more impressive on "potato exploding" than my Buckmark .22 lr is.
I also saw where someone did a velocity comparison that was interesting, and the long barreled .22 mag handguns like mine specifically were faster than .22 lr rifles. They are great for piercing doubles on gophers too!
Best-MC
I personally find that my 9.5" bbl Ruger super single-six is dramatically more impressive on "potato exploding" than my Buckmark .22 lr is.
I also saw where someone did a velocity comparison that was interesting, and the long barreled .22 mag handguns like mine specifically were faster than .22 lr rifles. They are great for piercing doubles on gophers too!
Best-MC
rough rider
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Whatever other posters might think.... I for one wouldn't want to be at the receiving end of one of those babies. Used to have a revolver in 22 magnum. I'd rather have it than not have it in SD situations. Just me...
p35
Member
I used to have a Taurus .22 Mag snub. I traded it off because it was so loud it was painful to shoot, even with double ear protection. I'd rather shoot a .357 any day.
I don't doubt that the .22 Mag is a good round in a lot of ways, but I don't want one in a snub.
I don't doubt that the .22 Mag is a good round in a lot of ways, but I don't want one in a snub.
I wouldn't question the expertise of any poster on this thread, but there are many of us that have more experience with the WMR than that of just a couple of guys shot around the edges.
The WMR is not to be preferred...of course! as a defense round. There are so many that are SLIGHTLY better. But I have seen enough wounds (on animals, one hastens to add) and sudden 'cessations' to have reasonable confidence in the cartridge IN MY HANDS. A man's gotta work within his limitations, says Harry. COM hits with a WMR have to be a powerful discourager. Some years ago I carried a High Standard derringer as a BUG and even a primary under certain circumstances. Never felt naked. Still here.
The WMR is not to be preferred...of course! as a defense round. There are so many that are SLIGHTLY better. But I have seen enough wounds (on animals, one hastens to add) and sudden 'cessations' to have reasonable confidence in the cartridge IN MY HANDS. A man's gotta work within his limitations, says Harry. COM hits with a WMR have to be a powerful discourager. Some years ago I carried a High Standard derringer as a BUG and even a primary under certain circumstances. Never felt naked. Still here.
Lone_Gunman
Member
A .45 ACP probably would have been no different.
Taurus 617 CCW
Member
Previously quoted by Headless:
"I've been considering getting one of those 8 shot .22 mag's as a BUG. I certainly would not want to get hit with 8 .22mag rounds at any distance from any barrel length. I think people underestimate the .22... the .22 can get the job done."
Yes in one regard that is true. It wouldn't be fun to get shot with any caliber. On the other hand if the guy is hyped up on meth, me may not even feel the bullet contact from a gun of any caliber. In a situation like that it comes down to energy transfer or more specifically bullet mass times velocity. A bullet of 9mm caliber or higher are much more likely to cause the perp to bleed out faster as compared to a .22 WMR in general (shot placement disregarded). Modern hollowpoints only increase your chance for survival. For those reasons I use guns of the .4X persuasion most consistently. In the summer when there is a size restriction I use a .38 special loaded with +P gold dots.
"I've been considering getting one of those 8 shot .22 mag's as a BUG. I certainly would not want to get hit with 8 .22mag rounds at any distance from any barrel length. I think people underestimate the .22... the .22 can get the job done."
Yes in one regard that is true. It wouldn't be fun to get shot with any caliber. On the other hand if the guy is hyped up on meth, me may not even feel the bullet contact from a gun of any caliber. In a situation like that it comes down to energy transfer or more specifically bullet mass times velocity. A bullet of 9mm caliber or higher are much more likely to cause the perp to bleed out faster as compared to a .22 WMR in general (shot placement disregarded). Modern hollowpoints only increase your chance for survival. For those reasons I use guns of the .4X persuasion most consistently. In the summer when there is a size restriction I use a .38 special loaded with +P gold dots.
ChiefThunderstick
Member
Snot hole gun
There is only one way to drop somebody instantly. That is a direct hit to the central nervous system. There is no cartridge that can transfer enough energy to knock a man down. If this was not true, then when the shot was fired, the recoil would also knock down the person doing the shooting.
For various reasons assassins prefer the .22 high velocity in a handgun. Always 2 shots to the head. Cattle at slaughterhouses are dispatched with a bolt gun that is powered by .22 blanks. The lethal blow is administered to the medula oblongata.
All this being said, unless you can make a direct hit to the head, neck or spine, under pressure and fear for your own life, I would like every edge possible, in a self defense situation.
I carry a highly concealable .45 ACP pistol with CorBon 165gr. DPX ammo. When the weather or occassion doesn't permit I carry a KelTec P3AT with comparible ammo. It's all about COM and having any edge possible.
I do own a NAA convertible, bought it as a novelty. Keep it around the house with .22 CCI, in strategic location, in case I have to put one in somebody's snot hole.
There is only one way to drop somebody instantly. That is a direct hit to the central nervous system. There is no cartridge that can transfer enough energy to knock a man down. If this was not true, then when the shot was fired, the recoil would also knock down the person doing the shooting.
For various reasons assassins prefer the .22 high velocity in a handgun. Always 2 shots to the head. Cattle at slaughterhouses are dispatched with a bolt gun that is powered by .22 blanks. The lethal blow is administered to the medula oblongata.
All this being said, unless you can make a direct hit to the head, neck or spine, under pressure and fear for your own life, I would like every edge possible, in a self defense situation.
I carry a highly concealable .45 ACP pistol with CorBon 165gr. DPX ammo. When the weather or occassion doesn't permit I carry a KelTec P3AT with comparible ammo. It's all about COM and having any edge possible.
I do own a NAA convertible, bought it as a novelty. Keep it around the house with .22 CCI, in strategic location, in case I have to put one in somebody's snot hole.
After seeing someone shot five times in the torso, with a .38 special at point blank range and then running off and surviving, I can't imagine wanting to limit myself with a .22 of any sort. (And the guy was not intoxicated with anything.)
I know people have survived from being shot with just about every handgun caliber, but I certainly wouldn't want to add additional handicaps to the equation.
I would hate being pressed into a situation, where my life or a family member's life was in grave danger and all I had was a .22 because of my choice.
I think many that advocate it as an acceptable choice are relying more on misplaced feelings, rather than data or experience.
I know people have survived from being shot with just about every handgun caliber, but I certainly wouldn't want to add additional handicaps to the equation.
I would hate being pressed into a situation, where my life or a family member's life was in grave danger and all I had was a .22 because of my choice.
I think many that advocate it as an acceptable choice are relying more on misplaced feelings, rather than data or experience.
I treated a deputy some years back who was trying to stop his wife from shooting herself with a .22 Mag derringer. It went off and hit mhim in the cheek, bounced off a tooth and the bullet came to rest under his tongue. Eventually he lost the tooth...but a hit in the head didn't faze him. He subdued the lady, got her care, and came to the hospital where after xrays and observation, he was placed on antibiotics and discharged to follow up. Ruined the .22 Mag for me as self defense, unless, you do as a friend cop had to do...screw the barrel end into the perps ear and pulled the trigger. That worked.
Vito: I brought up the same question a few month back. Here is a link to my old thread.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=212383&highlight=.22+magnum
Like everyone is saying, if you can handle bigger, get something bigger. If you can't, 22 WMR is not that bad. Problem is its rimfire, and in short barrels it is LOUD. Here is a link to some wetpack test from a Kel Tec site (#23), performance from a 4 1/2" barrel is not too shabby.
http://www.ktrange.com/articles/a10/a10.html
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=212383&highlight=.22+magnum
Like everyone is saying, if you can handle bigger, get something bigger. If you can't, 22 WMR is not that bad. Problem is its rimfire, and in short barrels it is LOUD. Here is a link to some wetpack test from a Kel Tec site (#23), performance from a 4 1/2" barrel is not too shabby.
http://www.ktrange.com/articles/a10/a10.html
First of all Vito thank you for starting this thread. I think that VA27 summed it up. I use a 22LR for CCW. I do not need to defend the killing ability of the 22. I practice with it 2-3 times a week and 2-3 bricks a week. At this time I can empty a 10 round magazine (clip) as fast as I can pull the trigger and they will all be in a group under 2" at 10 feet. No sights on my pistol. Ground them off. I will promise you that at 10feet and under the 22LR from my pistol is going to bring the BG down period. I am working on a different shooting stance and holding position for this style of shooting and it is working well for me you can check out the thread on X dominant handgun shooting to read about it
Why make fun of someone who bought a $700 to $800 handgun, that needs special order ammo at is over $20 a box, all of which will probably be illegal in 5 years if the Democrats take over. When that happens They will settle for the next best thing which will be a $200 Grendel or other cheap .22 handgun, and .22 Mag ammo you can buy in wallyworld for $6 a box.
It's like making fun of slow kids...it's kinda of mean.
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I have a 351pd. Its a fun little gun. Almost no recoil. All the sound and fire everyone talks about isnt really there. Its really fun to shoot.
For self defense, I wouldnt want to get shot with it! I think it would be quite nasty at close range. However, I dont think it would stop someone with a single shot when high on drugs. Any sane, non drugged robber would stop quick, though!
If recoil is a real problem for ya, this gun would be easy to master and no problem to shoot. I have bigger guns I carry for self defense, if I think I really need it, but the 351pd is carried for everything else. I alternate rounds, one 22 mag, one 22 mag shotshell.
I love it, it feels like a toy gun. Loaded or not. It's light, easy to hold, easy to shoot.
Great for my younger kids to learn & get interested with!
Be armed, have fun with it
For self defense, I wouldnt want to get shot with it! I think it would be quite nasty at close range. However, I dont think it would stop someone with a single shot when high on drugs. Any sane, non drugged robber would stop quick, though!
If recoil is a real problem for ya, this gun would be easy to master and no problem to shoot. I have bigger guns I carry for self defense, if I think I really need it, but the 351pd is carried for everything else. I alternate rounds, one 22 mag, one 22 mag shotshell.
I love it, it feels like a toy gun. Loaded or not. It's light, easy to hold, easy to shoot.
Great for my younger kids to learn & get interested with!
Be armed, have fun with it
Anyone counting on using less than a .38 special/.380 or 9mm at a bare minimum to defend themselves against anyone threating them with enough harm to justify shooting in the first place is taking an unneccessary risk in my opinion.
There are just too many guns in calibers adequate for the job to fit any budget, purpose and size need to play with your life by using an inadequate caliber. If all you can get is a .22 then use it well - it's better than nothing.
However, if you have the means to get something bigger and still choose to use a .22, .25, .17 HMR, etc. for SD, then nothing said here is going to solve the fundamental problem of that tactic which is a just a deficit of good common sense.
There are just too many guns in calibers adequate for the job to fit any budget, purpose and size need to play with your life by using an inadequate caliber. If all you can get is a .22 then use it well - it's better than nothing.
However, if you have the means to get something bigger and still choose to use a .22, .25, .17 HMR, etc. for SD, then nothing said here is going to solve the fundamental problem of that tactic which is a just a deficit of good common sense.
I agree with ARTiger(mostly), but that being said, I own a NAA 22mag/lr. It is a great little gun and has a place as a deep concealment BUG. I know one person who became a kidnap victim along with his wife while camping. Because he had a little 22 where no one could find it, he was able to get the drop on his kidnapper, stick it in his ear, and free himself and his wife. As a very small hideout kind of gun, the 22 mag is much better than the 22lr or the 25acp as others have stated. It is probably the best caliber for that purpose. I can velcro my little NAA 22mag into the top of a ball cap, put it on a chain around my neck, or stick it some place where nothing short of a strip search would find it. In some situations, it might be the only thing you can retain if things go bad. I also read another story of a scantily clad woman leaving a casino in the wee hours of the morning being stopped by a guy in the parking lot with evil intent. She produced an NAA 22 from a chain around her neck. The guy made some comment about a toy gun just before she shot him once in the chest at contact range. He ran off. She was safe. Police found the guy dead a couple blocks away. The lady in question had put one through the guy's heart. With a 22mag, shot placement is even more critical than with a larger caliber. If used at all for defense, one must realize the limits of the small caliber and use it accordingly (i.e. complete surprise at contact distance in a vital spot.) Not the best option when others are avavilable, but can be a life saver in some circumstances.
Roll Tide
Roll Tide
defiant73a
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The best I recall there was a North Carolina State Trooper named Coates who managed to put five (or maybe all six) rounds from his .357 Magnum revolver (loaded with 145-grain Silvertips) into a BG's torso at traffic stop gone bad. The BG got one .22 Magnum into Trooper Coates which stopped the hostilities right there. The BG survived. Trooper Coates didn't.
Maybe we all be careful with "horror tales" of cartridge failures. What you hit is still a whole lot more important than what you hit it with when it comes to handgun calibres.
Maybe we all be careful with "horror tales" of cartridge failures. What you hit is still a whole lot more important than what you hit it with when it comes to handgun calibres.
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