.22 WMR ? No place in SD?

[natman]

My favorite set of videos showing the barrel length when a .22 WMR wakes up a bit compared to .22 LR.

3" barrels with separate chambers. A 4.3" barreled pistol with integral chamber ought to be similar.

The 22 Mag cartridge shoots at the same pressure as a 22LR. That's why it can be chambered in similar rifles. It gains its velocity advantage by maintaining that pressure longer. In order to maintain the pressure, it requires a longer barrel. Fired from a 2" snubnose, you'll see no velocity advantage over 22LR.
Check out the 40 grain bullet ballistics with a 2" barrel:
BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .22 Results
BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Results
Both produce velocities in the mid 800fps range from a 2" barrel.

Most 22 Mag ammo is loaded to make maximum velocities in rifle length barrels. This produces an amazing amount of blast and flash when fired from pistols. There are 22 Mag pistol loads and if you must use 22 Mag for defense they would be a good idea.

 

[Elmer]

Ammunition plays a part here. There have been a couple of .22 mag loads designed for self defense. Their performance will be better than a load designed to shoot small varmints with.

 

[herrwalther]

22Magnum as a backup carry, deep concealment, jogging gun etc sure. But as a primary arm? Probably not except for some exceptions like weak hand/grip strength.

 

[ChuteTheMall]

On a lighter note, even if you miss the noise and muzzle flash should scare most attackers away.

It's like a flash-bang grenade in the face instead of at the feet, can sting the eyes better than OC spray, louder than a rape whistle, and a face full of blood might end the chase.

 

[TTv2]

I'm not going to say that .22 Mag doesn't have a role for self defense, the NAA minis prove they can be put in exceptionally small guns and still pack a decent punch, but once you get above that size I don't see the value of them over .32's. Sure, a few more rounds in the cylinder, but at the expense of a heavier trigger pull, rimfire unreliability, and questionable expansion.

For low recoil in a small frame snub, understood, but the .22 Mag is still a small bullet and the low recoil can be achieved with a .32, yet is twice the size.

Anything larger than a J frame size snub for self defense is better served in a centerfire.

 

[Old Hobo]

First, let me say that I'm a .22 mag fan and am thus biased.

The .22 mag makes a decent-ish backup. My NAA 5-shot mini-revolver in .22 mag will blow a hole right through a 2"x4" plank. It's exit damage is nasty.

It isn't really a primary weapon in that its lighter bullet simply can't retain sufficient energy to dig deep. Rips tissue royally, but often can't make it on into the "boiler works". On some smaller humans, sure. But what about a 260 pound career felon with all manner of drugs coursing through his blood and brain?! Ask any cop and they'll have several horror stories. People, it's crazy out there. Then there's the matter of monster(s) breaking into your home. I'm no gambler.

I almost always have a small revolver in my pocket while at home; I've one lightweight 9mm auto (can't say I really like it). I'm not paranoid; however, there was a home invasion less than a quarter-mile from my house. Can happen. I keep insurance on my house and cars. Don't wanna use my insurance nor any gun for self-defense; yet, I live on Earth.

So, what value has a little .22 mag in the pocket have at home? I just need it to buy me the time to get to a real weapon, like a pump shotgun loaded with buckshot. The .22 mag in a handgun is VERY LOUD! Sounds like you have cannon. And, I'm a late-night person. When the sun is up, I'm probably snoring -- especially in the morning. In the bedroom, I keep a pump shotgun. In my home office I have a .357 lever action. There's no kids in our home and my wife still works (post retirement), i.e. over-penetration is not an issue. We have a 70 lb dog and electronic security. I sure am not looking to shoot anybody. If they run away, great! If they don't, I'm prepared. "Trust in God, but tie your camel."

Subject 4-legged critters: The only bears around here are black bears. We live next to mountains and huge forests; sometimes bears visit. They are trashcan and apple orchard raiders (broke down I don't know how many limbs in a neighbor's apple orchard). Black bears can be shooed-off. I don't EVEN mess with them AND I just love that they exist. I'm turning into an old bear myself. Pit-bulls gone psycho cannot be simply driven away, no no no. At least three neighbors of ours have multiple pit bulls. Is a .22 mag enough to stop a pit bull attack? No experience, but I bet not. Don't respond telling me that your pit bull has yet to take-off anyone's face. In my youth, I hunted a bunch. You have to punch an animal hard to get it to drop. Critters with fangs are supernatural. Take a .22 mag on walks? Is it enough? No and no.

I hope this helped somehow. I'm old and my brain dumps information. It's our evolution / species that causes this behavior. In ancient days, the village old folk were the local library.
.

 

[21H40]

I'm not going to say that .22 Mag doesn't have a role for self defense, the NAA minis prove they can be put in exceptionally small guns and still pack a decent punch, but once you get above that size I don't see the value of them over .32's. Sure, a few more rounds in the cylinder, but at the expense of a heavier trigger pull, rimfire unreliability, and questionable expansion.

For low recoil in a small frame snub, understood, but the .22 Mag is still a small bullet and the low recoil can be achieved with a .32, yet is twice the size.

Anything larger than a J frame size snub for self defense is better served in a centerfire.

How does the caliber change make the trigger better?

 

[chicharrones]

How does the caliber change make the trigger better?

The hammer spring usually has to be heavier in a rimfire gun compared to a centerfire gun for reliable rimfire ignition. It's especially noticeable pulling the trigger in DA with small frame revolvers with their poor trigger to hammer leverage.

Fer instance, my C.A. Undercoverette .32 magnum has a lighter hammer spring and easier to pull DA trigger than my C.A. Pocket Target .22 LR.

View attachment 1149584

 

[chicharrones]

The 22 Mag cartridge shoots at the same pressure as a 22LR. That's why it can be chambered in similar rifles. It gains its velocity advantage by maintaining that pressure longer. In order to maintain the pressure, it requires a longer barrel. Fired from a 2" snubnose, you'll see no velocity advantage over 22LR.
Check out the 40 grain bullet ballistics with a 2" barrel:
BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .22 Results
BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Results
Both produce velocities in the mid 800fps range from a 2" barrel.

Most 22 Mag ammo is loaded to make maximum velocities in rifle length barrels. This produces an amazing amount of blast and flash when fired from pistols. There are 22 Mag pistol loads and if you must use 22 Mag for defense they would be a good idea.

In addition to BBTI (which didn't seem to have a 2" .22 WMR revolver to test), here's an interesting source of info that came out just over two years ago.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/pocket-pistol-caliber-gel-test-results/

And for more revolver numbers, NAA's website has some numbers worth picking through. https://northamericanarms.com/ballistics/

 

[21H40]

The hammer spring usually has to be heavier in a rimfire gun compared to a centerfire gun for reliable rimfire ignition. It's especially noticeable pulling the trigger in DA with small frame revolvers with their poor trigger to hammer leverage.

Fer instance, my C.A. Undercoverette .32 magnum has a lighter hammer spring and easier to pull DA trigger than my C.A. Pocket Target .22 LR.

View attachment 1149584

Thanks. That makes sense. I wasn't thinking about revolvers.

 

[unclenunzie]

In addition to BBTI (which didn't seem to have a 2" .22 WMR revolver to test), here's an interesting source of info that came out just over two years ago.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/pocket-pistol-caliber-gel-test-results/

And for more revolver numbers, NAA's website has some numbers worth picking through. https://northamericanarms.com/ballistics/

I am glad you referenced this. Even though clear gel is no substitute for properly calibrated gelatin used in formal testing protocols, it does show there is a measurable difference between 22WMR and 22LR. I will always prefer center fire, but modern defense-oriented rimfire is much better quality than bulk rimfire. So if I am going down hill as it were, and I start at 5 of 38SPC., I will drop first to 7 rounds of 22WMR and then to 8 rounds of 22LR.

So yeah, 22WMR indeed has a place, right between.

 

[Maneiak]

The hammer spring usually has to be heavier in a rimfire gun compared to a centerfire gun for reliable rimfire ignition. It's especially noticeable pulling the trigger in DA with small frame revolvers with their poor trigger to hammer leverage.

Fer instance, my C.A. Undercoverette .32 magnum has a lighter hammer spring and easier to pull DA trigger than my C.A. Pocket Target .22 LR.

View attachment 1149584

If you take 2 identical pistols, or revolvers, and one is a rim fire, and one is a center fire, the trigger pull is almost identical every time in my experience.

 

[TTv2]

Thanks. That makes sense. I wasn't thinking about revolvers.

I can't imagine a situation where .22 Mag in a semi auto would be better than a centerfire for self defense.

 

[Mini30SS]

Sounds like a AMT AUTOMAG is what you really need ...sorry, couldn't help myself...

No, that gun is not reliable. The Kel-tec PMR, or the Walther WMP are the only Handguns in 22WMR are the only ones I would consider. Revolvers in the caliber lose to much velocity because of the cylinder gap. A closed breech semi auto pistol is the only way to go with this

 

[Mini30SS]

When it comes to self defense, any caliber can be lethal, it is all about how one trains and the confidence one possesses in their training and marksmanship. I have seen many shooters at the range miss their targets completely simply because they were over gunned. What use is having a .357, or 44 magnum or a 454 casull or a 500 smith and Wesson if you can not hit what you are aiming at because of recoil and lack of training and practice due to recoil or cost of ammo.

I am beginning to get the early signs of arthritis in my hands and soon I may not be able to carry my 686 simply because the recoil can be very painful. When the time comes I will drop to a .45 cal, then a 9mm than a .380 and finally my Keltec PMR. The point here is that confidence and training is what is needed and if you are confident any caliber will suffice because you are able to hit what you are aiming at, furthermore not every self defense scenario requires a lethal response.

But to answer the question from the OP a 22 magnum is just as great as any caliber, and it is definitely no slouch.

I would disagree on reliability, assuming only factory ammo in either case. With factory ammo, I would choose a center-fire every time, over a rim fire. Rimfires just have a higher failure rate than center-fire cartridges, which cannot be overcome by the design of the firearm. For that reason, I would never choose a rimfire firearm as a first choice as a defensive firearm.

But, of course, if that was all I had, then obviously I would pick that over a baseball bat.

 

[CraigC]

I'm late to the party.
Cliché sayings already posted:
"Wouldn't want to get shot with it"
"Better than nothing"

If a 22 WMR is all you have, then it is "better than nothing".
If a 22 WMR is the most caliber you can control, again "better than nothing".
I could apply "wouldn't want to get shot with it" to a BB, pellet, or spit ball, so that is hardly a lofty validation of performance.

Except that you took my comments out of context. I don't want to get shot with anything either, that is a fact. However, that was not my point. My point was that I've seen, rather extensively, the amount of damage the .22Mag does to critters and I really I don't want that to happen to me. Unlike the .22LR, it doesn't just kill them without fanfare, which is how most people seem to characterize it. Two weeks ago I shot a rather large ground hog with the .22Mag and it blew out a loop of his intestines. I guess I needed to write a book for proper context.

Most 22 Mag ammo is loaded to make maximum velocities in rifle length barrels. This produces an amazing amount of blast and flash when fired from pistols. There are 22 Mag pistol loads and if you must use 22 Mag for defense they would be a good idea.

100% fake news. There are ZERO rifle powders that would work in the .22Mag. Just as there are no pistol powders that would yield higher velocities in short barrels. Powders are not chosen for barrel length. They are chosen for pressure range and case capacity. The .22Mag (and .30Carbine) may have begun life in a rifle but it has the same characteristics of a magnum revolver cartridge. It is a point of fact that the same powders will yield the highest velocities, regardless of barrel length. Those powders are the same used in typical magnum revolver loads, such as 2400, H110 (birthed in the .30), Lil Gun and AA#9. I know for a fact that when the .17HMR was released, it was loaded with Lil Gun.

The defensive loads have flash suppressant powders and bullets that open at lower velocities. They do not have some magical pistol powder that does better in short barrels. It's probably something like Accurate #11FS.

I really don't know what you're looking at on BBTI to conclude that. I see advantages of 150fps to as much as 300fps for very short barrels. That is the price you pay for a snubby. I know from my own testing that for 5" barrels, it's usually 300-400fps.

No, that gun is not reliable. The Kel-tec PMR, or the Walther WMP are the only Handguns in 22WMR are the only ones I would consider. Revolvers in the caliber lose to much velocity because of the cylinder gap. A closed breech semi auto pistol is the only way to go with this

Dad had an Automag II that we shot extensively 20-30yrs ago. It was absolutely reliable.

Revolvers do just fine, that statement makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[CDW4ME]

Except that you took my comments out of context.

I did not quote you, "better than nothing" is a common cliché typically used for marginal calibers and/or low capacity; I just scanned and saw it.
I do enjoy inserting it in a 10mm thread, 180 gr. @ 1,200+ fps ... "better than nothing". Nobody ever says it in a 10mm thread.

"Wouldn't want to / nobody volunteer to get shot with it" aint far behind in frequency of posting, enough that its been in my signature for years.

These less frequently posted were missing, as of my initial reply:
How about a vague "meets my needs".
Perhaps, a subjective "I feel protected"

I didn't take your comments at all, nothing personal was intended.

 

[Walkalong]

Some people are bringing positive real life experience to this discussion, which is helpful to readers, and some people aren’t being helpful at all.

 

[Atavar]

. Powders are not chosen for barrel length. They are chosen for pressure range and case capacity. The .22Mag (and .30Carbine) may have begun life in a rifle but it has the same characteristics of a magnum revolver cartridge. It is a point of fact that the same powders will yield the highest velocities, regardless of barrel length.

.

I have seen many examples and writeups where people experienced unburned powder in reloads and they chose to switch to a powder with a faster burn rate for their barrel to achieve a more efficient and complete burn.

 

[GEM]

Just anecdotal and about 20 years, shooting some factory 22 WMR (brand?) at about 7 yards at a paper target with a SW 651 revolver, left black something (powder?) all over the paper. Pretty dirty and gummed up the gun pretty tight. Took a lot of some spray gun cleaner to free up the cylinder.

 

[CraigC]

I have seen many examples and writeups where people experienced unburned powder in reloads and they chose to switch to a powder with a faster burn rate for their barrel to achieve a more efficient and complete burn.

Nothing but misconception and misunderstanding. Powder doesn't burn all the way down the barrel. The powder is "burned" by the time the bullet reaches the forcing cone. What is left is expanding gases. Slower powders are used in greater volume and produce a greater volume of expanding gases. If unburned powder is leaving the muzzle, then something is wrong with the load. It either needs more pressure/density to burn properly (like H110) or a hotter primer. I also see this happen with 2400. Where in the .44Mag, 18.0gr leaves unburned kernels exiting the muzzle. At 19.0gr it burns clean. By your logic, the opposite would be true. Barrel length has nothing to do with it.

I'll say it again, in the context of handgun cartridges and the .22Mag, the same powders that produce the highest velocities in a 20" barrel, will absolutely do the same in a 3" barrel.

Here's what I posted on another forum.

"That said, I have chronographed 125gr loads out of the .357 in two guns applicable to this discussion. Namely, a 4" S&W model 28 (no dash) and a late model 3" model 60. I have only a handful of .357's and the rest are longer. In those tests, I found the following:

S&W model 28 4"
125gr XTP over 22.0gr H110/WSP - 1536fps
125fgr XTP over 9.6gr Unique/WSP - 1270fps

An advantage of 266fps in favor of H110.

S&W model 60 3"
125gr XTP over 22.0gr H110/WSP - 1480fps
125fgr XTP over 9.6gr Unique/WSP - 1300fps

An advantage of 180fps in favor of H110.

I don't own a 2" but I seriously doubt there is any magic going to happen and close that gap. If you have data that contradicts this, I'm all ears."

 

[JTHunter]

I've heard that adding a red dot that weighs over 1 oz will mess up the reliability. It slows down the slide or somewhich thing.
As for EDC, I doubt there is anything with that level of firepower in such a comfortable package. Mine has been decently reliable, but, as long as my hands can handle the recoil, I'll be carrying something in a larger diameter.

That may be but I don't know and I went another direction. I have a Ruger Single Six with the 2 cylinders (.22LR/Mag) and I have a Keltec PMR-30. The Keltec has a short rail on the underside of the gun in front of the trigger guard and I put a GREEN laser (easier for me to see) on that rail. It is bright enough for me to shine it on the dark-colored brick of a neighbor's house across the street from me (I asked first and he got curious as well) in the middle of the day. He also opened the inner front door and we could see the dot on the honey-colored kitchen cabinets on the back wall of their house, even with the lights on in the kitchen. Those cabinets were 125' away with the front brick wall about 90' away.
Being under the barrel, there was no problems with the slide and not having to bring the gun up higher to look through the red dot means I can "shoot from the hip" using the laser.

 

[Archie]

No place in my little world. I owned and shot a moderate sized revolver with interchangeable cylinders and didn't come up with much reverence for the .22 Magnum at all. Nor am I impressed with it in relation to the .38 Special I now utilize.
Nor do I have any warm feelings for the excessively tiny revolvers intended for such use. I collect older - before WW2 - .25 ACP pistols. They are fascinating to study and really a pain in the yarmoosh to shoot. Tiny. Threading a needle without glasses is easier.

However, I can see a use if the operator is inflicted with weak or arthritic hands or wrists. I seem to be heading that direction, but not there just yet. (Have moved down from Lightweight Commander in .45 ACP to model 10.)

 

[Rodfac]

My son and I share a Ruger Single Six with both .22 LR & Magnum cylinders. I'd estimate that we shoot 90+% of the time with the LR cylinder. Magnums are used only when we're trying to eliminate opossums or racoons that get into our horse and cattle feed bins or are pestering the chickens.

The gun, BTW, is about equally accurate with either cylinder in use. At over thirty cents a shot, I don't know anyone that uses Magnums for target practice. Best regards, Rod

 

[Walkalong]

I have seen many examples and writeups where people experienced unburned powder in reloads and they chose to switch to a powder with a faster burn rate for their barrel to achieve a more efficient and complete burn.

While that is true, I'm not sure it's relevant to factory .22 Mag ammo, and factory ammo in general. What gets the most velocity in the short barrel will do so in the long barrel and vice versa.