.22 WMR ? No place in SD?

[ms6852]

I would disagree on reliability, assuming only factory ammo in either case. With factory ammo, I would choose a center-fire every time, over a rim fire. Rimfires just have a higher failure rate than center-fire cartridges, which cannot be overcome by the design of the firearm. For that reason, I would never choose a rimfire firearm as a first choice as a defensive firearm.

But, of course, if that was all I had, then obviously I would pick that over a baseball bat.

I understand your apprehension but in my 55+ years of shooting reliability will always be an issue even with centerfire ammo and handguns. It all boils down to how well one maintains their firearms also and when it comes to say for example 22 long rifle rounds, what does makes a difference, is buying prime ammunition like Lapua, eley and so on ammo more reliable than Yellowjackets . Furthermore the 22 magnum is no slouch, it does travel at rifle speeds of a 22lr round when shot from a pistol.

One always hears that they want something bigger than a 22 for making bigger wounds but let me remind you that in 2009 13 people died in Ft Hood when Hasan used a 5.7 FN pistol using small bullets too.

I know I won't convince you and am not trying but sometimes we all don't know everything and what we know is just perception.

 

[KevininPa]

No, that gun is not reliable. The Kel-tec PMR, or the Walther WMP are the only Handguns in 22WMR are the only ones I would consider. Revolvers in the caliber lose to much velocity because of the cylinder gap. A closed breech semi auto pistol is the only way to go with this

Rock Island Arms has a 14 rounder as well. Reviews are good.

 

[Pistolay]

Fired from a 2" snubnose, you'll see no velocity advantage over 22LR.
Check out the 40 grain bullet ballistics with a 2" barrel:
BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .22 Results
BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Results
Both produce velocities in the mid 800fps range from a 2" barrel.

I won't speak to any of the other calibers in BBTI's testing, but their .22WMR testing was seriously flawed. For starters, at shorter barrel lengths, they were having trouble getting accurate readings from their chronographs. By the time they got down to 2" barrels, in their own words: "when the barrel was only 2" - we were only able to obtain one or two readings for each type of ammo. The readings were consistent with the curves we had seen through the rest of the testing, but doesn't have the same degree of supporting data." In other words, they were extrapolating the data from the curves at longer barrel lengths. In plain English, they were assuming, not proving.

In addition to that, their normal practice in most calibers was to test real guns in addition to their chop down barrels. In .22lr, they tested 6 real world guns with barrels 3.5" all the way down to 1". In .22WMR, they didn't test a single real gun with a barrel length less than 4.625".

I don't mean to throw shade at BBTI as a whole, but that particular test was not credible.

 

[TTv2]

Except that you took my comments out of context. I don't want to get shot with anything either, that is a fact. However, that was not my point. My point was that I've seen, rather extensively, the amount of damage the .22Mag does to critters and I really I don't want that to happen to me. Unlike the .22LR, it doesn't just kill them without fanfare, which is how most people seem to characterize it. Two weeks ago I shot a rather large ground hog with the .22Mag and it blew out a loop of his intestines. I guess I needed to write a book for proper context.



100% fake news. There are ZERO rifle powders that would work in the .22Mag. Just as there are no pistol powders that would yield higher velocities in short barrels. Powders are not chosen for barrel length. They are chosen for pressure range and case capacity. The .22Mag (and .30Carbine) may have begun life in a rifle but it has the same characteristics of a magnum revolver cartridge. It is a point of fact that the same powders will yield the highest velocities, regardless of barrel length. Those powders are the same used in typical magnum revolver loads, such as 2400, H110 (birthed in the .30), Lil Gun and AA#9. I know for a fact that when the .17HMR was released, it was loaded with Lil Gun.

The defensive loads have flash suppressant powders and bullets that open at lower velocities. They do not have some magical pistol powder that does better in short barrels. It's probably something like Accurate #11FS.

I really don't know what you're looking at on BBTI to conclude that. I see advantages of 150fps to as much as 300fps for very short barrels. That is the price you pay for a snubby. I know from my own testing that for 5" barrels, it's usually 300-400fps.

Firstly, the .22 Mag velocities I've chrono'd in a Heritage 6.5" barrel and the velocity increase over .22 LR was maybe 200 fps at most. Maybe that's loose tolerances on the Heritage, but I wasn't overly impressed and with barrel cylinder gap tolerances growing ever larger due to ease of manufacturing and assembly, I wouldn't be buying any .22 Mag revolvers with long barrels expecting a 400 fps increase in velocity over .22 LR.

Now, I have a question for you: Do you believe the non personal defense handgun .22 Mag ammo that is made is made with a focus for shooting in handguns or rifles? My belief is that .22 Mag ammo is made with the intention to shoot in rifles and the powders used are those that work best in rifles. Handgun shooting for .22 Mag is an afterthought, same as how PCC's are totally ignored when 9mm ammo is made with the specific intention of use in a handgun.

 

[CraigC]

Firstly, the .22 Mag velocities I've chrono'd in a Heritage 6.5" barrel and the velocity increase over .22 LR was maybe 200 fps at most. Maybe that's loose tolerances on the Heritage, but I wasn't overly impressed and with barrel cylinder gap tolerances growing ever larger due to ease of manufacturing and assembly, I wouldn't be buying any .22 Mag revolvers with long barrels expecting a 400 fps increase in velocity over .22 LR.

Now, I have a question for you: Do you believe the non personal defense handgun .22 Mag ammo that is made is made with a focus for shooting in handguns or rifles? My belief is that .22 Mag ammo is made with the intention to shoot in rifles and the powders used are those that work best in rifles. Handgun shooting for .22 Mag is an afterthought, same as how PCC's are totally ignored when 9mm ammo is made with the specific intention of use in a handgun.

Did you read any of the post you quoted???

The only difference between defensive and typical .22Mag loads is the bullet, as I already said. Unless they're using a powder with a flash suppressant, which is done to reduce flash, not to improve velocity.

Please tell me what powders appropriate to the 9mm would yield higher velocities in rifles than those typically used?

 

[Maneiak]

To all you guys that think your going to get rifle velocity out of a pistol length barrel, you are sadly mistaken. For those that think a longer barrel does not allow for more of the powder to burn, or at least keep the pressure up for a longer period of time, you might want to rethink that.

 

[CraigC]

To all you guys that think your going to get rifle velocity out of a pistol length barrel, you are sadly mistaken.

No one said that.

For those that think a longer barrel does not allow for more of the powder to burn, or at least keep the pressure up for a longer period of time, you might want to rethink that.

That is a total misrepresentation of what actually happens.

 

[Brubz]

When I started this thread I was thinking more along the lines of the fact that Rimfire ammunition is far more likely to misfire than centerfire ammunition.
The whole debate about penetration of the round is secondary to whether or not the round will actually fire when needed.the bottom line is I'm a big fan of my. 22 caliber magnum pistols but I don't think I would want to use them as my only self defense weapon unless I absolutely had to

 

[trackskippy]

I do think the rimfire ammo has improved in reliability in that respect, but even so, that would always be there in the back of your mind, or at least it would be mine.

I will say, my autos have been more reliable than my revolvers, but both tend to get grumpy when you fire a lot of rounds.

Both need to be cleaned well after each use, but especially so with the revolvers, as once the chambers start to get dirty, the rounds might look like they are in OK, but don't always seat fully into the chambers, and you will get light strikes.

I think as long as you keep them clean, and use ammo of known quality (I wouldnt use Remington if you paid me ), the dud/misfire odds are probably pretty low, but then you've got the power/caliber issue to deal with beyond that, so for me, its just a moot point. I wouldn't be using them for that purpose other than like you said, unless I absolutely had to.

 

[Coyote3855]

I carry my KelTec PMR 30 when I'm on the tractor. It is very efficient on ground squirrels and feral cats. I would not feel under armed in the unlikely event I encountered a miscreant. My EDC is a Glock 19. I have occasionally carried an NAA .22 Magnum as a backup gun.

 

[Maneiak]

No one said that.

That is a total misrepresentation of what actually happens.

Someone kind of did, when they compared 22mag out of a rifle blowing a nice hole in a critter. 22mag pistols won't give you that kind of velocity.

Measurements for barrel lengths of 24 down to 5 inches showed that the pressure in the barrel at the moment of uncorking varied from 4,800 psi for the 24-inch barrel to over 25,000 psi for the 5-inch barrel. Plotting the logarithm of the uncorking pressure against the barrel length produces a relatively straight plot, indicating that the pressure rises exponentially with shortening of the barrel.

 

[Maneiak]

To answer the OP...I wouldn't use a 22mag for self defense. I had a LCR in 22mag, bought it for the little lady because it was so light and small it worked great for her purse. But I sold it off, and got her a LCPII.

 

[natman]

The 22 Mag cartridge shoots at the same pressure as a 22LR. That's why it can be chambered in similar rifles. It gains its velocity advantage by maintaining that pressure longer. In order to maintain the pressure, it requires a longer barrel. Fired from a 2" snubnose, you'll see no velocity advantage over 22LR.
Check out the 40 grain bullet ballistics with a 2" barrel:
BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .22 Results
BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Results
Both produce velocities in the mid 800fps range from a 2" barrel.

Most 22 Mag ammo is loaded to make maximum velocities in rifle length barrels. This produces an amazing amount of blast and flash when fired from pistols. There are 22 Mag pistol loads and if you must use 22 Mag for defense they would be a good idea.

100% fake news. There are ZERO rifle powders that would work in the .22Mag. Just as there are no pistol powders that would yield higher velocities in short barrels. Powders are not chosen for barrel length. They are chosen for pressure range and case capacity. The .22Mag (and .30Carbine) may have begun life in a rifle but it has the same characteristics of a magnum revolver cartridge. It is a point of fact that the same powders will yield the highest velocities, regardless of barrel length. Those powders are the same used in typical magnum revolver loads, such as 2400, H110 (birthed in the .30), Lil Gun and AA#9. I know for a fact that when the .17HMR was released, it was loaded with Lil Gun.

The defensive loads have flash suppressant powders and bullets that open at lower velocities. They do not have some magical pistol powder that does better in short barrels. It's probably something like Accurate #11FS.

I really don't know what you're looking at on BBTI to conclude that. I see advantages of 150fps to as much as 300fps for very short barrels. That is the price you pay for a snubby. I know from my own testing that for 5" barrels, it's usually 300-400fps.

I fear you have misread my post, so I included it. I never said the 22 Mag uses rifle powders. In fact I never mentioned powders at all. I said it's loaded for max velocity in rifle length BARRELS. The advantage in case capacity gives the 22 Mag a decided velocity advantage over the 22LR in long barrels, but the advantage in 2" pistol barrels is minimal. If you saw large variances, you may have compared 40 grain bullets to 30 grain or something similar.

BBI tested four 40 grain 22 Mag loads and saw velocities of
887-946-899-853
40 grain 22LR loads were:
856-862-882
Pretty darn similar. The difference between the fastest 40 grain 22LR and 22 Mag load is 62 fps, nowhere near the 5-600 fps difference you'd see in a rifle barrel.

 

[Pistolay]

When I started this thread I was thinking more along the lines of the fact that Rimfire ammunition is far more likely to misfire than centerfire ammunition.

My wife carries either an LCRx snubby, LCRx 3" or S&W 351PD, all in .22WMR. She only shoots high quality ammo, CCI Maxi Mags and Hornady Critical Defense. Over several years, she has gone through many thousands of rounds of the CCI and hundreds of rounds of the Hornady and can't remember the last time (or even if) she had an ammunition failure. These days, I think rimfire ammo is pretty good, as long as you stick with the quality stuff.

 

[Mini30SS]

 

[Mini30SS]

It all boils down to how well one maintains their firearms also and when it comes to say for example 22 long rifle rounds, what does makes a difference, is buying prime ammunition like Lapua, eley and so on ammo more reliable than Yellowjackets.

One always hears that they want something bigger than a 22 for making bigger wounds but let me remind you that in 2009 13 people died in Ft Hood when Hasan used a 5.7 FN pistol using small bullets too.

1) What's the point of owning a .22 LR if you can't shoot cheap ammo in that firearm. If I am going to pay the same price for the ammo as I would for center-fire caliber ammo, I will get a center-fire firearm

2) the 5.7 fn cartridge is a center-fire cartridge. Do you really expect that a jihadi terrorist would count on a rimfire to carry out his murders?

 

[TTv2]

1) What's the point of owning a .22 LR if you can't shoot cheap ammo in that firearm. If I am going to pay the same price for the ammo as I would for center-fire caliber ammo, I will get a center-fire firearm

This is a major factor for me and a reason I didn't buy a PMR30 last year. The 30 rd capacity and low recoil and light weight of the gun were all cool, but when the ammo is as much as 9mm and JHP defense ammo meant specifically for handguns can be very hard to find, I didn't see the point.

The same thing could apply to revolvers. Cheap range ammo isn't too bad, but .32 and .38 are calibers I can reload for about the same price. Then there's the benefits of centerfire and lighter DA triggers on top of better penetration.

.22 Mag does have advantages worth considering, 50 rds of it weights very little so it's easy to carry a lot of, but for general self defense on the nightstand or in a holster for CCW work, I'd rather have .32 and still have low recoil.

 

[CDW4ME]

Okay, I can think of a specific situation where I'd carry a 22 WMR for SD...
Building where a doctors office is located has security that wands you when you enter; it is not illegal to carry there, they just don't want you to.
I had to remove my wallet, keys & phone set them on table then I got wanded, which did not detect the pepper spray I forgot was in cargo shorts side pocket.
Wallet was not searched or wanded which opens the possibility of having something in wallet:


I don't have LifeCard and rarely go to the doctor in that building; but, having that on me there would be better than not.

In that specific situation these cliché sayings would appropriately apply :

"Wouldn't want to get shot with it"
"Better than nothing"

"meets my needs".

Any other time, a Glock 26 or Sig 365 minimum.

 

[trackskippy]

LOL. I got bushwhacked into a "urine sample" picking up an opioid script at our doctors office. Said they forgot to get it when I was there the week before. Got into the back and it turned out to be your standard employment type "drug test". Nurse said "dump all your pockets on the counter and open the front of your pants". She just looked at the pile build as I was pulling stuff out of my pockets, gave me a weird look, and handed me the cup. I guess all the scary stuff in my pockets piled up on the counter distracted her from the 26 in its Smart Carry that I was wearing at the time, the lower part of which was basically out in the open at that point. She never saw it.

 

[Walkalong]

1) What's the point of owning a .22 LR if you can't shoot cheap ammo in that firearm. If I am going to pay the same price for the ammo as I would for center-fire caliber ammo, I will get a center-fire firearm

Cheap fun at the range I don't mind a misfire, but even my cheap .22 Mag ammo hasn't done that yet.

 

[CraigC]

When I started this thread I was thinking more along the lines of the fact that Rimfire ammunition is far more likely to misfire than centerfire ammunition.
The whole debate about penetration of the round is secondary to whether or not the round will actually fire when needed.the bottom line is I'm a big fan of my. 22 caliber magnum pistols but I don't think I would want to use them as my only self defense weapon unless I absolutely had to

To put things in perspective, last year I counted 56,000rds of .22LR that I have on hand and I didn't think it was that much. I shoot it a lot. I've also shot a significant volume of .22Mag and .17HMR. The only misfires I've ever had were with cheap bulk ammo and even those are rare. NEVER a misfire with the rimfire magnums.

Someone kind of did, when they compared 22mag out of a rifle blowing a nice hole in a critter. 22mag pistols won't give you that kind of velocity.

I said that because I started hunting with .22Mag handguns 30yrs ago. I know exactly what velocity they yield because I chronographed them.

Measurements for barrel lengths of 24 down to 5 inches showed that the pressure in the barrel at the moment of uncorking varied from 4,800 psi for the 24-inch barrel to over 25,000 psi for the 5-inch barrel. Plotting the logarithm of the uncorking pressure against the barrel length produces a relatively straight plot, indicating that the pressure rises exponentially with shortening of the barrel.

How is muzzle pressure going to be 25,000psi when the maximum allowable chamber pressure is 24,000psi? How is it relevant anyway? It is to be expected but what is being uncorked is expanding gas, not burning powder.

I fear you have misread my post, so I included it. I never said the 22 Mag uses rifle powders. In fact I never mentioned powders at all. I said it's loaded for max velocity in rifle length BARRELS. The advantage in case capacity gives the 22 Mag a decided velocity advantage over the 22LR in long barrels, but the advantage in 2" pistol barrels is minimal. If you saw large variances, you may have compared 40 grain bullets to 30 grain or something similar.

BBI tested four 40 grain 22 Mag loads and saw velocities of
887-946-899-853
40 grain 22LR loads were:
856-862-882
Pretty darn similar. The difference between the fastest 40 grain 22LR and 22 Mag load is 62 fps, nowhere near the 5-600 fps difference you'd see in a rifle barrel.

I read your post just fine and responded appropriately. The .22Mag has a velocity advantage over ALL barrel lengths. It is not optimized for rifle barrels. It is optimized for velocity for its operating pressure and case capacity, regardless of barrel length. As I said, the same powders that yield the highest velocities in rifle barrels will do the same in pistol barrels. People have this idea that the .22Mag is a rifle cartridge with no purpose in a handgun and that is just patently false.

BBTI is useful info but it is also very often misinterpreted. Tell me what handgun has a 2" barrel including the chamber? The .22Mag has a cartridge overall length of 1.35". So in BBTI's flawed testing, their 2" .22Mag had only 0.65" of rifling. Not 2". So for it to be a fair comparison to a 2" revolver, one must look at 3" numbers. In which case, the 40gr loads peaked at 1160fps and the 30's at 1336fps. Compared to 965fps and 1129fps in .22LR. That's a difference of 160-200fps. Not earth shattering but not insignificant either as we're comparing a lubed lead bullet to a jacketed hollow point. Not bad considering they operate at the same pressure.

In my own testing of 5.5" revolvers, the .22Mag yielded 1380fps for 40gr loads and 1450fps for 33gr loads. Contrast this to the .22LR which struggled to break 1000fps with standard 36gr loads. That's 300-400fps.

 

[CraigC]

Ammo cost is significant and since there is no lower cost alternative, I would have to have a very specific reason to buy a .22Mag (only) handgun strictly for self defense. Before I get in trouble for speaking in absolutes, rimfires 'can' be reloaded but not at a significant cost savings or the ability to do it in large volume. I've always thought it best as a sporting cartridge and in that role, the ammo cost is less important. Even back when I was buying Winchester 40gr at $5/box I wasn't exactly wasting a lot of it. Most the time a .38Spl, 9mm or even a .380 is going to make more sense. That said I do think the new Walther is mighty interesting but I struggle to justify buying one.

 

[chicharrones]

When I started this thread I was thinking more along the lines of the fact that Rimfire ammunition is far more likely to misfire than centerfire ammunition.
The whole debate about penetration of the round is secondary to whether or not the round will actually fire when needed.the bottom line is I'm a big fan of my. 22 caliber magnum pistols but I don't think I would want to use them as my only self defense weapon unless I absolutely had to

I've only been launching .22 WMR down tubes of guns since maybe 2011 or so. I say that because I can't speak for the quality of .22 WMR ammo in the 20th century.

What I have experienced personally is that the .22 WMR ammo I tend to shoot is built to a higher standard than the bulk pack .22 LR I've ever fired in my lifetime. Better bullets, better cases, and maybe a better application of primer in the rim. They are not cheap.

So far, I've never had a misfire with a .22 WMR cartridge in the few guns I've fired them in. I've had many misfires over the years with .22 LR.

To my amazement I had my first misfire in 9mm that I can remember about a month or two ago with some Magtech FMJ practice ammo. I think I'm blaming the gun's light hammer strike on that one as a double strike made it go off.

 

[chicharrones]

BBTI is useful info but it is also very often misinterpreted. Tell me what handgun has a 2" barrel including the chamber? The .22Mag has a cartridge overall length of 1.35". So in BBTI's flawed testing, their 2" .22Mag had only 0.65" of rifling. Not 2". So for it to be a fair comparison to a 2" revolver, one must look at 3" numbers. In which case, the 40gr loads peaked at 1160fps and the 30's at 1336fps. Compared to 965fps and 1129fps in .22LR. That's a difference of 160-200fps. Not earth shattering but not insignificant either as we're comparing a lubed lead bullet to a jacketed hollow point. Not bad considering they operate at the same pressure.

In my own testing of 5.5" revolvers, the .22Mag yielded 1380fps for 40gr loads and 1450fps for 33gr loads. Contrast this to the .22LR which struggled to break 1000fps with standard 36gr loads. That's 300-400fps.

IMO, BBTI info regarding .22 WMR in 2" barrels might as well be tossed out. BBTI did a lot of great work, but that part with real guns was unfinished.

 

[CraigC]

IMO, BBTI info regarding .22 WMR in 2" barrels might as well be tossed out. BBTI did a lot of great work, but that part with real guns was unfinished.

I agree 100%.