.22 WMR ? No place in SD?

[ms6852]

1) What's the point of owning a .22 LR if you can't shoot cheap ammo in that firearm. If I am going to pay the same price for the ammo as I would for center-fire caliber ammo, I will get a center-fire firearm

2) the 5.7 fn cartridge is a center-fire cartridge. Do you really expect that a jihadi terrorist would count on a rimfire to carry out his murders?

I never said you could not shoot cheap ammo my question to you is if you are going to carry a 22LR for self defense purposes why not rely on more reliable ammo like lapua and so on (I know you will never carry 22lr). Nobody says you can't practice and plink with cheap ammo I do it all the time. One box of prime ammo used only to load your EDC firearm for SD will only cost around $15 give or take a couple of dollars and you only use that ammo for SD. If you are lucky it will last you a lifetime, I believe one's life is worth at least $15. If you are unlucky it won't matter much what you carry either rimfire or centerfire with a 50 round magazine.

 

[Mini30SS]

I never said you could not shoot cheap ammo my question to you is if you are going to carry a 22LR for self defense purposes why not rely on more reliable ammo like lapua and so on (I know you will never carry 22lr). Nobody says you can't practice and plink with cheap ammo I do it all the time. One box of prime ammo used only to load your EDC firearm for SD will only cost around $15 give or take a couple of dollars and you only use that ammo for SD. If you are lucky it will last you a lifetime, I believe one's life is worth at least $15. If you are unlucky it won't matter much what you carry either rimfire or centerfire with a 50 round magazine.

Your right. My life is worth more than $15. That's why I carry a 9mm, or .357 mag with premium ammo that costs from $1 to $1.50 per round. Your right. I would never use a rimfire as a self defense firearm, unless I got caught without a center-fire firearm... Or my primary defense firearm had an operational failure.The chances of that are pretty close to zero. I have a dedicated "Truck gun" for each of my vehicles. In one of them, I have a Ruger 10-22 as a secondary firearm, for targets of opportunity when travelling about in my rural area of residence.

 

[TTv2]

What I have experienced personally is that the .22 WMR ammo I tend to shoot is built to a higher standard than the bulk pack .22 LR I've ever fired in my lifetime. Better bullets, better cases, and maybe a better application of primer in the rim. They are not cheap.

So far, I've never had a misfire with a .22 WMR cartridge in the few guns I've fired them in. I've had many misfires over the years with .22 LR.

I really don't understand why people think that .22 Mag is more reliable than non-bulk .22 LR from reputable manufacturers like CCI, especially from an ignition standpoint. There is no difference in how the LR and Mag cases get primed, they don't have different machines or higher paid employees charging the cases.

If we wanted a more fair comparison, people would compare premium .22 LR like Mini Mags, Velocitors, etc. to .22 Mag. The failure rates would be about equal, but I doubt there are people putting 500 rds of .22 Mag down range every weekend like they do .22 LR, so they encounter less failures.

 

[CraigC]

There is no difference in how the LR and Mag cases get primed.....

How do you know that?

 

[TTv2]

How do you know that?

Because they're both rimfire.

How do you know they are primed differently?

ETA: You know what? Instead of believing what I do, I'm going to reach out to some companies and ask them if their processes for priming .22 Magnum is different compared to .22 LR.

However, I've never had any luck getting a response to general inquires when it comes to contacting ammo manufacturers.

 

[chicharrones]

I really don't understand why people think that .22 Mag is more reliable than non-bulk .22 LR from reputable manufacturers like CCI, especially from an ignition standpoint. There is no difference in how the LR and Mag cases get primed, they don't have different machines or higher paid employees charging the cases.

If we wanted a more fair comparison, people would compare premium .22 LR like Mini Mags, Velocitors, etc. to .22 Mag. The failure rates would be about equal, but I doubt there are people putting 500 rds of .22 Mag down range every weekend like they do .22 LR, so they encounter less failures.

All stated from our own personal experience shooting .22WMR from our own guns. Long guns and hand guns.

You’re still stuck in your personal experience with your light striking .22WMR revolver which we all suggested you to send back to the manufacturer for repair or replacement.

I remember specifically that you said that gun fired .22 LR more reliably then .22 WMR. Which made many of us believe that the firing pin wasn’t shaped or positioned correctly to hit the primer well on the two different diameter cartridges.

Did you ever get that problem fixed or are you just letting it affect your perception of .22 WMR forever?

 

[TTv2]

All stated from our own personal experience shooting .22WMR from our own guns. Long guns and hand guns.

You’re still stuck in your personal experience with your light striking .22WMR revolver which we all suggested you to send back to the manufacturer for repair or replacement.

I remember specifically that you said that gun fired .22 LR more reliably then .22 WMR. Which made many of us believe that the firing pin wasn’t shaped or positioned correctly to hit the primer well on the two different diameter cartridges.

Did you ever get that problem fixed or are you just letting it affect your perception of .22 WMR forever?

I don't care enough about the light strikes to bother since I mostly shoot .22 LR from them anyway, but I'm now actively trying to figure out what the manufacturing process differences are between .22 Mag and Long Rifle to be able to come to a definitive answer as to whether .22 Mag is inherently more reliable than .22 LR.

I'd rather get the facts from the manufacturers than rely on conjecture from people who say .22 Mag is more reliable and their focus as to why the cartridge is more reliable is because it costs more and the "git wut ya pay fer" mentality takes hold.

Just from the specs, .22 Mag's rim is .007" thicker than .22 LR. How much of that is from an attempt to thicken the brass to prevent rupture and how much it might have been done to increase the volume of the rim to increase the capacity of priming compound or help improve the flow of the compound into the rim IDK. WIll try to find out.

 

[chicharrones]

I don't care enough about the light strikes to bother since I mostly shoot .22 LR from them anyway, but I'm now actively trying to figure out what the manufacturing process differences are between .22 Mag and Long Rifle to be able to come to a definitive answer as to whether .22 Mag is inherently more reliable than .22 LR.

I'd rather get the facts from the manufacturers than rely on conjecture from people who say .22 Mag is more reliable and their focus as to why the cartridge is more reliable is because it costs more and the "git wut ya pay fer" mentality takes hold.

Just from the specs, .22 Mag's rim is .007" thicker than .22 LR. How much of that is from an attempt to thicken the brass to prevent rupture and how much it might have been done to increase the volume of the rim to increase the capacity of priming compound or help improve the flow of the compound into the rim IDK. WIll try to find out.

You’re dismissing other’s personal experience since it doesn’t line up with your lack of effort to spend time with .22 WMR in a properly functioning swap cylinder revolver.

In my time installing and repairing machinery, some putting pasty fluids onto product, it sure isn’t hard to imagine that an ammo maker can simply turn up the primer paste supply a tad in premium cartridge production. And turn it down a bit when making an econo-line of product. Which may reduce or increase voids in the primer rim.

And thinking of primers further, this reminds me of some centerfire cartridges with hard primers and soft primers and how some guns are intolerant of one or the other.

 

[doubleh]

Back in my younger years when I shot a lot of both 22 LR and 22 mag about all the ammo that was offered on store shelves was either Remington or Winchester in either caliber. I do not remember ever hearing the "click: of a dud round with 22 mag and it was very, very seldom that I did with 22 LR. Things have changed with modern manufacturing and I won't even buy Winchester 22 LR anymore.

 

[Walkalong]

I’ve had cheap.22 LR duds before, not much, but some. Just don’t remember any with.22 Mag.

I assume they are primed in the same way, maybe better quality control or mixture or both, like “match” primers.

Dunno

 

[CraigC]

Because they're both rimfire.

How do you know they are primed differently?

ETA: You know what? Instead of believing what I do, I'm going to reach out to some companies and ask them if their processes for priming .22 Magnum is different compared to .22 LR.

However, I've never had any luck getting a response to general inquires when it comes to contacting ammo manufacturers.

Remington Thunderbolts and Lapua Midas are both rimfire cartridges, are they primed the same way? Or is there a distinction between top quality match ammo and bulk ammo that minimizes the possibility of misfires?

I'd rather get the facts from the manufacturers than rely on conjecture from people who say .22 Mag is more reliable and their focus as to why the cartridge is more reliable is because it costs more and the "git wut ya pay fer" mentality takes hold.

You have an interesting way of distinguishing what is and isn't conjecture.

 

[JohnKSa]

However, I've never had any luck getting a response to general inquires when it comes to contacting ammo manufacturers.

I can guarantee you that you won't get an answer from the first person you ask. But I think that, based on my experience, if you stick with it and are polite, you will eventually find someone who will provide basic answers. They probably won't tell you HOW they prime the two cartridges, but you can probably, with some effort, find someone who will be willing to tell you if they do anything different for the WMR.

How much of that is from an attempt to thicken the brass to prevent rupture...

The pressure difference in the two cartridges is very small; seems unlikely that they would need to change the brass for the WMR to compensate for such a small difference.

Maximum Average Pressure for the two rounds is identical.
Maximum Probable Lot Mean for the .22WMR is 3.7% higher.
Maximum Probable Sample mean for the .22WMR is 9.0% higher.

Basically they are loaded to the same pressure, but the .22WMR has a larger allowable variation of pressure meaning that if you test a bunch of each for pressure, the average pressure should be about the same for both samples, but the highest pressure samples for the .22WMR would be higher than the highest pressure samples for the .22LR.

 

[Maneiak]

I really don't understand why people think that .22 Mag is more reliable than non-bulk .22 LR from reputable manufacturers like CCI, especially from an ignition standpoint. There is no difference in how the LR and Mag cases get primed, they don't have different machines or higher paid employees charging the cases.

If we wanted a more fair comparison, people would compare premium .22 LR like Mini Mags, Velocitors, etc. to .22 Mag. The failure rates would be about equal, but I doubt there are people putting 500 rds of .22 Mag down range every weekend like they do .22 LR, so they encounter less failures.

I agree totally! I think most people that assume 22mag is more reliable is because they haven't shot near as many rounds of mag compared to LR so they have not seen the failures. I have had 22mag fail to go off, just like 22LR, but since it cost more than 2x I have not experienced near as many failures because I shoot way less of it. But, it is probably made in the same tools that make the other rim fire cases.

 

[Maneiak]

Remington Thunderbolts and Lapua Midas are both rimfire cartridges, are they primed the same way? Or is there a distinction between top quality match ammo and bulk ammo that minimizes the possibility of misfires?

They most likely are primed the same way. Any bulk rim fire ammo will have more dudes, some of that has to do with the packaging. Maybe its an old wives tale, but I was told a long time ago that the primer compound can settle into one side of the case if its not completely full. Ever notice that higher quality ammo comes in nice cases that hold the rounds vertical?

 

[TTv2]

I agree totally! I think most people that assume 22mag is more reliable is because they haven't shot near as many rounds of mag compared to LR so they have not seen the failures. I have had 22mag fail to go off, just like 22LR, but since it cost more than 2x I have not experienced near as many failures because I shoot way less of it. But, it is probably made in the same tools that make the other rim fire cases.

There's also an issue where they want to compare .22 Mag to the cheapest .22 LR garbage like Thunderduds or Flinchtester Plight Box.

 

[chicharrones]

I agree totally! I think most people that assume 22mag is more reliable is because they haven't shot near as many rounds of mag compared to LR so they have not seen the failures. I have had 22mag fail to go off, just like 22LR, but since it cost more than 2x I have not experienced near as many failures because I shoot way less of it. But, it is probably made in the same tools that make the other rim fire cases.

Back in my younger days, me and my shootin' buds and family bought .22 LR solely by price if more than one type was available. It was a direct step up from BB guns for us, which meant .22 LR ammo was expensive. A tube of BBs sure is chicken feed compared to the same quantity of .22 LRs to a kid.

Most of my .22 LR dud experience comes from my cheap ammo days. Using my dad's Marlin 60 as a kid in the '70s, and using my Marlin 39AS and Beretta 21A as a young adult in the '90s. The 39AS was a notorious light striker until I fixed it, the Beretta turned into a light striker after it wore out.

Seems like all the least expensive .22 LR these days comes dumped loose in a box of 333 rounds or similar, instead of the classic 10 boxes of 50 each. I can't recall ever buying the loose pack .22 LR that's so common now. I haven't had a .22 LR dud in some time, but I do come across an under powered cartridge once in a while which won't push the slide back on a pistol enough to extract an empty. bang instead of BANG.

I didn't pick up my .22 WMR habit until 2010 or so thanks to an old shootin' buddy. I'd guess I've fired .22 LR about 3 to 1 over .22 WMR since then. So really, I can't recall the last time I had a .22 LR misfire in the last 13 years or so. And I've never experienced a .22 WMR misfire in the same time frame.

 

[Brubz]

Back in my younger days, me and my shootin' buds and family bought .22 LR solely by price if more than one type was available. It was a direct step up from BB guns for us, which meant .22 LR ammo was expensive. A tube of BBs sure is chicken feed compared to the same quantity of .22 LRs to a kid.

Most of my .22 LR dud experience comes from my cheap ammo days. Using my dad's Marlin 60 as a kid in the '70s, and using my Marlin 39AS and Beretta 21A as a young adult in the '90s. The 39AS was a notorious light striker until I fixed it, the Beretta turned into a light striker after it wore out.

Seems like all the least expensive .22 LR these days comes dumped loose in a box of 333 rounds or similar, instead of the classic 10 boxes of 50 each. I can't recall ever buying the loose pack .22 LR that's so common now. I haven't had a .22 LR dud in some time, but I do come across an under powered cartridge once in a while which won't push the slide back on a pistol enough to extract an empty. bang instead of BANG.

I didn't pick up my .22 WMR habit until 2010 or so thanks to an old shootin' buddy. I'd guess I've fired .22 LR about 3 to 1 over .22 WMR since then. So really, I can't recall the last time I had a .22 LR misfire in the last 13 years or so. And I've never experienced a .22 WMR misfire in the same time frame.

I had this problem using cheap Herters .22 Lr in my Walther P22. It would fire but would not eject the spent brass. Now I use CCI Mini Mags in the P22 and use what's left of the Herters in my Ruger Wrangler. Problem solved

 

[Monac]

I keep seeing this thread title (".22 WMR ? No place in SD?") and thinking it means there is no place to buy 22 WMR in South Dakota. I am out of touch on the latest acronyms, I guess.

 

[CraigC]

They most likely are primed the same way. Any bulk rim fire ammo will have more dudes, some of that has to do with the packaging. Maybe its an old wives tale, but I was told a long time ago that the primer compound can settle into one side of the case if its not completely full. Ever notice that higher quality ammo comes in nice cases that hold the rounds vertical?

This thread is just budding with nonsense. It was a rhetorical question, we know they are not primed the same way. Much more care is taken with match ammo, in every step of production, including priming.

Packing has nothing to do with priming and everything to do with preventing bullet deformation.

 

[jstert]

i had a ruger lcr and a naa black widow, both chambered in 22wmr. the flashbang and expense was truly a disincentive to getting any meaningful amount of practice. out of a short barrel, even with handgun specific ammo, i’m unconvinced that 22wmr outperforms a stout 22lr round, e.g. cci stinger or velocitor.

22wmr is best out of a rifle or a single action revolver with a 5.5”+ barrel. my ruger single six loaded with 22wmr is a most decent “field and stream” utility piece.

 

[21H40]

i had a ruger lcr and a naa black widow, both chambered in 22wmr. the flashbang and expense was truly a disincentive to getting any meaningful amount of practice. out of a short barrel, even with handgun specific ammo, i’m unconvinced that 22wmr outperforms a stout 22lr round, e.g. cci stinger or velocitor.

22wmr is best out of a rifle or a single action revolver with a 5.5”+ barrel. my ruger single six loaded with 22wmr is a most decent “field and stream” utility piece.

In my highly scientific testing I've found the 22 WMR to have significantly more power on impact than 22 LR. I had a bunch of scrap 2x12 pieces as targets. After a couple of boxes of 22lr through a 6" revolver and about 60 22WMR through my PMR (4-ish" barrel), all of the 22LR was stuck within the first 1/2" of wood. All of the 22 WMR completely penetrated the same targets.

Super sciency wins the internet!

 

[jstert]

In my highly scientific testing I've found the 22 WMR to have significantly more power on impact than 22 LR. I had a bunch of scrap 2x12 pieces as targets. After a couple of boxes of 22lr through a 6" revolver and about 60 22WMR through my PMR (4-ish" barrel), all of the 22LR was stuck within the first 1/2" of wood. All of the 22 WMR completely penetrated the same targets.

Super sciency wins the internet!

what 22lr rounds did you use?

 

[TTv2]

In my highly scientific testing I've found the 22 WMR to have significantly more power on impact than 22 LR. I had a bunch of scrap 2x12 pieces as targets. After a couple of boxes of 22lr through a 6" revolver and about 60 22WMR through my PMR (4-ish" barrel), all of the 22LR was stuck within the first 1/2" of wood. All of the 22 WMR completely penetrated the same targets.

Super sciency wins the internet!

That shows .22 Mag is a better hard barrier penetrator and that's likely all due to the bullet being jacketed, not copper plated or lead. Test on soft tissue and there may not be much difference.

I know people are likely to bring in the Lucky Gunner tests and how .22 Mag did not have issues like .22 LR did where some bullets would go 15 inches and some would only go 9-10 inches deep and my answer to that is there are so many variables with .22 rimfire and different revolvers that there's not enough consistency to be able to make a definitive statement. I've chrono'd .22 Mag ammo that had 200 fps swings from low to high, same with .22 LR, and I'm sure that was encountered in the LG tests.

I don't think .22 Mag is vastly superior to .22 LR in a snub revolver. Maybe a little better, but if I really wanted significantly better and still have low recoil, I'd but another .32 instead.

 

[Walkalong]

In my highly scientific testing I've found the 22 WMR to have significantly more power on impact than 22 LR. I had a bunch of scrap 2x12 pieces as targets. After a couple of boxes of 22lr through a 6" revolver and about 60 22WMR through my PMR (4-ish" barrel), all of the 22LR was stuck within the first 1/2" of wood. All of the 22 WMR completely penetrated the same targets.

Super sciency wins the internet!

Same here, unscientifically shooting stuff with both to see what it would do. No contest, 22 Mag hands down. And I was shooting 4" .22 LR and 1 5/8" .22 Mag.

 

[doubleh]

Where is the dead horse icon for this thread? My popcorn supply just ran out. Or maybe it's better to just let it run as it will reappear again---and again.