How credible is this lion hunting story???

[saturno_v]

I found this article on the web about lion hunting

http://www.man-eater.info/gpage4.html

This is the part of the story that sounds suspect or at least not explained very well

========================================================

But none of that explained what happened on a Kenyan safari in 1967. Hunter and author Brian Herne chronicled the series of events in his book, “White Hunters.” Veteran guide and hunter Henry Poolman took an experienced client out looking for the “Big Five” – lion, leopard, buffalo, elephant and rhino. Pete Barrett, the client, was a crack shot and experienced hunter. Both men packed formidable weapons: a .458 Winchester for Barrett; a .470 double rifle for Poole. Either weapon could take down an elephant and in fact they were often looking for elephant. Guides and bearers and scouts also carried a mix of weaponry, including a shotgun and a 7 mm rifle – the preferred weapon for lion at a distance.
They came upon a lion at relatively close range, and Barrett let loose with a 510-grain bullet. The big cat ran as he fired, however, and they thought they had missed. Then, when they topped a ridge, they saw the cat lying dead.
“Congratulatons!” Poolman said to Barrett, and at the sound of a human voice, the “dead” lion rose and charged Barrett.
Poolman then did what the white hunter code called for. He placed himself between the lion and his client and as the lion was upon him, blasted away with both barrels of his elephant gun, squarely striking the lion with both shots.
The point blank impact of an elephant gun slowed the lion hardly at all. It bowled over Poolman but did not harm him. The lion was after Pete Barrett. He caught up with the client, threw him to the ground and mauled him. Barrett gave the lion one arm and attempted to fend the lion off with the other.
Poolman could not find his rifle, lost during the charge, but barehanded came to Barrett’s aid. He pulled the lion’s tail, attempting to deflect its focus on Peter Barrett. Meanwhile, one of Poolman’s experienced gunbearers rushed forward with a 7 mm rifle and from a side vantage point, so neither Poolman nor Barrett were in the line of fire, placed three large caliber slugs directly through the lion’s heart and lungs as quickly as the man could work the bolt of the rifle.
The lion reacted not at all and shot through now with five slugs continued to maul Barrett. In the confusion, an inexperienced gunbearer took aim at the lion’s head as Barrett continued to pull on the animal’s tail. The 12 gauge buckshot missed the lion, perhaps because of the disorienting nature of the mane. But the buckshot struck Poolman fully in the chest, killing him instantly.
Just moments later, the bullet-riddled lion simply stopped and rolled off of Barrett, quite dead. The client survived the mauling, perhaps because Poolman’s first shots had broken its lower jaw.

================================================

What sound "strange" is that the guide, accordingly with this story, squarely hit the lion at point blank range with 2 rounds of a 470 Nitro Express out of his double rifle.....and the Lion has been hit already with a 458 Winchester magnum slug, an other pachiderm rifle.
The 470 NE is an elephant gun propelling a 500 gr flat or round nose bullet at well over 2200 fps, generating almost 6000 ft/lb of energy at the muzzle.
The story says that the charged hunter survived the experience because the guide's first 2 470 NE shots broke the lion's lower jaw.

I'm not an expert in african hunting (or any hunting to be precise) but if a Lion (which is not that big over all and not a thick skinned animal) get a couple of 470 NE slugs at point blank in his face they should have almost cleaned his head off not just breaking the lower jaw....never mention the monstrous impact shock....

So what is your take on this?? Is it a believable story??
I know that an enraged lion is a terrifying creature and a wrong placed shot even out of a a 50 BMG problably will not stop him......but a couple of elephant rifle bullets at point blank in the head????

Regards

 

[R.W.Dale]

they should have cleaned his head off not just breaking the lower jaw....never mention the monstrous impact shock....

what what bullets were being used that is really key???? No bullet will deliver all it's energy to the target if it passes through the critter. I'm gonna guess that the 470 was loaded with an extremely tough deep penatrating non expanding bullet.

In the scenario I outline above the quote you cite is completely plausible and even somewhat likely

on a side note this is also why headshots are very unforgiving on any game dangerous or not. I speak from experiance a critter can do an astonishing amount of livin and running with the relatively unimportant parts of it;s head shot off

 

[C-grunt]

Glancing shots maybe? Might have damaged the jaws severely, but that doesnt mean the bullets flight path took the rounds into the rest of the lion.

 

[Al Thompson]

Angle was wrong - close enough and the bullets could have popped the jaw, not entered the body. I've watched a 75 lb duiker suck up a soft .375 H&H bullet and run off. With no lungs and no heart. Sometimes bullets just don't turn things off, despite internet postings.

 

[Jeff F]

Krochus has it. I believe they use soft points when hunting lion. The article said they were actually hunting elephant at the time so they were probably loaded up with solids.

Also that lion was hurt and pissed off and was set on getting the guy that hurt him in the first place. I think he was working on adrenalin until they took out his pump and he died.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

1. I seriously doubt the guy let loose with both barrels at the same time.

2. If he did, or even if he didn't, then what was described is quite possible - just simply a bad shot / glancing blow.

 

[TehK1w1]

+1 PremiumSauces, I doubt that he doubled up on a 470 NE even under the effects of an adrenalin rush. If they were hunting elephants, I could easily see the rifle being loaded with solids-as far as I know it's standard practice. As for the lion, once you've seen a heartshot deer run 70+ yards before falling, you tend to believe this kinda story more easily.

 

[IndianaBoy]

People seriously overestimate the destruction that the large bore dangerous game rifles will do.

A 470 Nitro Express loaded with solids designed to penetrate far enough to kill an elephant, will not expand in a thin skinned lion.

A lion with a .470 hole through a non vital area will be a terrible handful.

It's not like all that kinetic energy is going to smash his head in like a cement truck.

 

[saturno_v]

People seriously overestimate the destruction that the large bore dangerous game rifles will do.

A 470 Nitro Express loaded with solids designed to penetrate far enough to kill an elephant, will not expand in a thin skinned lion.

A lion with a .470 hole through a non vital area will be a terrible handful.

It's not like all that kinetic energy is going to smash his head in like a cement truck.

I never hunted anything but I saw what a 460 Weatherby round did to a VERY thick wood log....heck even a cheap Mosin-Nagant round for that matter....

Accordingly to that story, that lion got 2 470 NE slug directly in his face at point blank...I think the skull qualify as vital in my book.

Even a solid bullet in that caliber has a flat or round nose and it should do a bit of smashing.....and bones, notoriously, do shatter....

I vote for a grazing/glancing/sidewise shot that just took off the lower jar.

I may be wrong, but I seriously doubt that a lion, not matter how enraged, can survive couple of 470 NE slugs squarely in his face at point blank range...they hit like a freight train...maybe some gasping but not enough to keep pounding an adult man and take other 3 rounds of 7 mm from a bolt action rifle before to die.

This is a video of a charging lion shot a point blank range in the head (I think)...immediately disabled...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_yTNo36YOs

 

[Jst1mr]

Remember to discount at least the Capstick section - a fireside story-weaver whose true hunting experience could fit on the head of a pin. As for the other, it is much easier to herald the courage and stamina of the animal than to admit to poor shooting...

 

[Cypress]

I have absolutely no experience with Africa or the above mentioned cartridges. I do however have some experience with hogs and a hot loaded 45-70. The beauty of a heavy and tough bullet is that you can strike the vitals from any angle. The downside is most shots will pass straight through and deliver considerably less energy than a light fast bullet. Unless heavy bone is hit immediate effects on animals I've shot are nonexistant.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I do a have a fair bit of African hunting experience and much of that is with a .470NE. The story described is not only plausible but these kinds of things happen more often than you'd like to think.

It is fairly common that people miss the brain on a charging lion. They usually shoot over the brain into the main hair or if they go low they break the jaw as described. Once a DG animal such as lion is wounded they are damn near bullet proof to anything other than a CNS disconnect. Buffalo are the same way.

 

[saturno_v]

I do a have a fair bit of African hunting experience and much of that is with a .470NE. The story described is not only plausible but these kinds of things happen more often than you'd like to think.

It is fairly common that people miss the brain on a charging lion. They usually shoot over the brain into the main hair or if they go low they break the jaw as described. Once a DG animal such as lion is wounded they are damn near bullet proof to anything other than a CNS disconnect. Buffalo are the same way.

H&H

What happen if a point blank 470 NE slug hit the lion right in the nose or between the eyes??...or anywhere in the head for that matter (excluding the lower jaw)???
With that kind of energy shouldn't just split the skull in half???

A Brenneke 3 inch Black Magic slug did that at close range to a grizzly in Alaska, out of a Remington 870 pump shotgun.

So the guy was just too high (hitting the fatty mane) or too low.....

 

[ch1966]

The poster of this vid states that the lion was missed, but you can cleary see him hit at least twice.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohvxdbtHALA

 

[Cosmoline]

I don't know about lions but griz have been recorded as taking multiple .375 H&H or .338 WM slugs and continuing to fight. They've even been recorded killing after their hearts have been shot out. These big predators have a powerhouse of hormones quite beyond anything a human has, and their limbs and jaws can actually keep going after their core systems have been blown apart. So a bear or lion with a non-functional heart and lungs can still kill because its muslces still have enough juice to respond in a surge of power. At least that's the theory. I doubt if anyone has scientifically tested it. What we do know is that in many instances the animal has been opened up afterwards and found to have a bloodly pulp in place of its organs, yet everyone still saw it attack after that hit was taken.

Of course, there are also many recorded instances of big predators dropping stone dead with seemingly minor hits from undersized rifles. So there may be other factors at play such as the animal's activity level prior to the hit and exactly what the bullet is destroying. Maybe when the animal's blood is circulating fast to its limbs and head, a bullet does less to stop it than when it's lounging around with most of the blood in the core. Who knows.

 

[Shawnee]

An African lion has almost no skull above the eyebrows - meaning a direct brain shot from the front is going to be a dicey proposition at best. Have to remember too there may well have been some "down angle" to those shots as well as the frontal aspect.

Gotta agree with those who opine about the "glancing" shot.... and that is because the .470 is so powerful. It isn't that the lion's skull was so hard it deflected the .470 bullets - it is that the massive power in those bullets probably deflected the lion's skull... not unlike a punch from Ali would knock someone's head away rather than penetrate the skull.

Seems to me a classic example of "wrong bullet placed in the wrong spot"... and a good illustration of why the idea that a bigger caliber will make up for sloppy shooting is a fairy-tale for hunters of any game be it deer, elk, bears, lions or whatever.

 

[saturno_v]

don't know about lions but griz have been recorded as taking multiple .375 H&H or .338 WM slugs and continuing to fight. They've even been recorded killing after their hearts have been shot out. These big predators have a powerhouse of hormones quite beyond anything a human has, and their limbs and jaws can actually keep going after their core systems have been blown apart. So a bear or lion with a non-functional heart and lungs can still kill because its muslces still have enough juice to respond in a surge of power. At least that's the theory. I doubt if anyone has scientifically tested it. What we do know is that in many instances the animal has been opened up afterwards and found to have a bloodly pulp in place of its organs, yet everyone still saw it attack after that hit was taken.

Of course, there are also many recorded instances of big predators dropping stone dead with seemingly minor hits from undersized rifles. So there may be other factors at play such as the animal's activity level prior to the hit and exactly what the bullet is destroying. Maybe when the animal's blood is circulating fast to its limbs and head, a bullet does less to stop it than when it's lounging around with most of the blood in the core. Who knows.

Cosmoline I agree with you with a heart or lung shot....but a point blank direct hit from a 470 in the skull is going to split the egg in half..hard to survive for any living organism in that situation....

I'm more and more convinced, like H&H and others said, that it was a glancing shot..either too high and it hit the fatty mane or too low taking the lower jaw....

 

[H&Hhunter]

H&H

What happen if a point blank 470 NE slug hit the lion right in the nose or between the eyes??...or anywhere in the head for that matter (excluding the lower jaw)???
With that kind of energy shouldn't just split the skull in half???

Saturno,

A .470 NE will pulverize a lions skull. We are talking major mush and bone chips. With an expanding bullet. A round nosed or even flat nosed solid would also cause major damage whether or not the skull would explode from over pressure with a solid depends on lots of things.

The story that you speak of occurred because the lions skull brain was not reached. There is no animal on earth that will not be instantly killed with a .470 to the brain. It is darn difficult to hit a lion in the brain in a frontal charge especially if you are standing up as the cut off angle makes the shot really difficult at short range. An experienced man given the time will kneel down to negate the cut off angle.

 

[BigBuckMaster]

It could/has/will happen(ed). it happined to me once, acually

it sounds like it could/has/will happen(ed). one time when i was huntin' lion, i shot a rouge male who had been killing cattel.

i fired awat with my .470 NE, hitting him twice inthe sholder and lungs. my PH shot him twice with his .375 H&H. when he was a mere 15 feet away (looking just fine, by the way), i shot him again with my .470, in the head. he fell right in front of me. i took out my Colt M1911A1 and shot him in the spine, for he still was breathing. it is true, i have his right paw (taxadirmided) in my library to prove it, as well as pictures.

 

[BigBuckMaster]

Here is an excerpt from the book -The Man-eaters of Eden. i have read this book and all of Peater H. Capstick's books. i have hunted lion's (1 m., 1 fm.), near Kruger, and i am damn sure they are the most ornary lions i have ever met.

here is a except from the book The Man-eaters of Eden

Stevenson-Hamilton considered it beyond foolishness. An exhausted lion or a lion caught unawares could easily be killed with one well-placed round. But the literature of lion hunting is filled with stories of what happens when a lion is wounded and then charges. Peter Capstick catalogued these dangers in one of his epic hunting books.
“First among them is his inclination to charge from close quarters where only a brain or spine shot will anchor him. You may blow a hole in his heart big enough to accommodate a navel orange, but in his condition of hyperadrenia, there will still be enough oxygen in his brain to carry his charge for a surprising distance and enough moxie left over to turn you into something that would give a hyena the dry heaves.
“The second factor is the combination of his speed and strength and the small target he offers in a frontal charge. In times of stress their movements are virtually nothing but blurs, a very unnerving fact at a time when you yourself are probably scared witless. A typical charge by a lion from sixty feet takes a blinking of an eye, the average shot will be about fifteen yards. At such a short range it is impossible to overestimate the degree of danger a hunter is subjected to. A lion can cover forty five feet quicker than you can pronounce it.”
Add on to that, the deceiving target of the lion’s head. There is very little skull or brain above the lion’s brow, Capstick noted, “just a mass of fatty tissue and mane.” Yet the instinct of a hunter seeking a brain shot, is to shoot into this area, thinking he has the head well-targeted when actually he may just be combing the lion’s mane a new part.
The lions ever have been indiscriminate in their attacks without consideration for royalty or race, title or class. Sir George Grey, the brother of a prime minister of Great Britain, took the charge of a lion in the early twentieth century. He stood solidly and his shots were well-placed and landed well in the lion’s chest, but the lion killed him nonetheless.
Grey’s fatal mistake might have been to use too little gun – a small .280 Ross high velocity rifle. It was common among sportsmen then to hunt large game with what Robert Ruark called “souped up .22’s” – a practice he decried in a book entitled, “Enough Gun.” The .280 carried a wallop from its velocity, but the actual bullet itself had little mass. Moreover, Sir George appears to have had no back-up shooters to protect against the charge.
But none of that explained what happened on a Kenyan safari in 1967. Hunter and author Brian Herne chronicled the series of events in his book, “White Hunters.” Veteran guide and hunter Henry Poolman took an experienced client out looking for the “Big Five” – lion, leopard, buffalo, elephant and rhino. Pete Barrett, the client, was a crack shot and experienced hunter. Both men packed formidable weapons: a .458 Winchester for Barrett; a .470 double rifle for Poole. Either weapon could take down an elephant and in fact they were often looking for elephant. Guides and bearers and scouts also carried a mix of weaponry, including a shotgun and a 7 mm rifle – the preferred weapon for lion at a distance.
They came upon a lion at relatively close range, and Barrett let loose with a 510-grain bullet – nearly four times heavier than Ross’s little 140 grain. The big cat ran as he fired, however, and they thought they had missed. Then, when they topped a ridge, they saw the cat lying dead.
“Congratulatons!” Poolman said to Barrett, and at the sound of a human voice, the “dead” lion rose and charged Barrett.
Poolman then did what the white hunter code called for. He placed himself between the lion and his client and as the lion was upon him, blasted away with both barrels of his elephant gun, squarely striking the lion with both shots.
The point blank impact of an elephant gun slowed the lion hardly at all. It bowled over Poolman but did not harm him. The lion was after Pete Barrett. He caught up with the client, threw him to the ground and mauled him. Barrett gave the lion one arm and attempted to fend the lion off with the other.
Poolman could not find his rifle, lost during the charge, but barehanded came to Barrett’s aid. He pulled the lion’s tail, attempting to deflect its focus on Peter Barrett. Meanwhile, one of Poolman’s experienced gunbearers rushed forward with a 7 mm rifle and from a side vantage point, so neither Poolman nor Barrett were in the line of fire, placed three large caliber slugs directly through the lion’s heart and lungs as quickly as the man could work the bolt of the rifle.
The lion reacted not at all and shot through now with five slugs continued to maul Barrett. In the confusion, an inexperienced gunbearer took aim at the lion’s head as Barrett continued to pull on the animal’s tail. The 12 gauge buckshot missed the lion, perhaps because of the disorienting nature of the mane. But the buckshot struck Poolman fully in the chest, killing him instantly.
Just moments later, the bullet-riddled lion simply stopped and rolled off of Barrett, quite dead. The client survived the mauling, perhaps because Poolman’s first shots had broken its lower jaw.
Herne’s take on lions? “If the first shot is not well placed on a lion, it will trigger a swift adrenaline response. There is little question subsequent body shots are, for the time being at least, going to do very little to slow him down. If that first shot is not immediately fatal, the lion may quickly become the most formidable terrestrial animal on earth.”
It was this sort of danger Trollope courted, sometimes several times a day. He forced the charge. On every hunt, he bet that he could place a bullet at exactly the right spot in the lion’s head or spine to stop a charge that a heart shot would not.
Was Trollope a sportsman or a bit touched? The other rangers thought a bit of both, but there was no doubt about one thing. He was a dead shot and no lion laid tooth or claw upon him. Sometimes they would fall within feet of him. But he never was mauled or injured. He devastated the lion population in the 1920’s until he tired of the sport and moved on.
It seems appalling in this day and age. But Trollope gave Stevenson-Hamilton enough political capital to quell the anti-lion sentiment. And if nothing else could be said of Trollope, these two points surely could: he gave the lion a chance; and once Trollope passed through an area, no-one suggested Stevenson-Hamilton and the reserve rangers were soft on lions.
But when it happens today, the shooting of lions has none of the glory that attached to it in the days of the Great White Hunter. There is no ethic of “fair pursuit.” These are not brave sorties into the bush after fleeing demons. No Patterson at Tsavo. No Rushby in Tanganyika. No Hemingway or Ruark, with their immense but fragile egos, plucky wives and witty safari sundowner banter. No Corbett chasing serial killer tigers in India. No noble Sir George Grey with his high velocity little gun. No brave Poolman. No guts. Above all, no glory. Not even rifle shots mark these events.

The truth is that while the lions of Kruger are the most deadly in all of modern history they are the least dangerous to kill. They are habituated to humans and simply do not fear them. The lions of Tsavo, of Tanganyika, knew humans as a foe and were in fact ferociously aggressive and cunningly elusive. The lions of Kruger know humans as slightly more dimwitted than warthogs and a lot easier to catch. Why run from a human? Or a landie filled with rangers and their dart gun

 

[rondog]

Y'all can have that dangerous game stuff, I'll stay home and pet my Beagles.

 

[cajun 48]

just read the article, first shot broke the jaw! the double struck "squarely"! doesn't say in the face, head, leg, chest or mane. more than plausable.