28 weeks later got me thinking and debating w/ friends about how I would arm others

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Saiga

I'm with JWarren on the Saiga.

AK action, basically, and if you're buying in advance and have a little time on your hands, they can be converted to actual AK.

Inexpensive, light, accurate. Tolerates abuse.

However, I also like the .357 levergun idea, considering they can be had on sale at Big 5 for not much more than a Saiga, and inexpensive wheelguns can be had as a companion arm using the same ammo.

A little more learning curve, slower to load, but certainly versatile in the right hands.
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It might sound stupid, but I'd probably have to go with the Hi-Point 9mm carbine. The gun is a little cheaper than the SKS. You can find 9mm JHP a little cheaper than 7.62x39. The carbine is smaller and weighs 5.75 lbs, while the SKS is 8.5 lbs. Mags are about $15. Seeing as we're not talking about a military situation where everyone is forced to use ball ammo, I don't have a problem with 9mm.

The .40 carbine is also good, but at that point you'll be paying about as much as a used SKS, and I don't think you'll find .40 JHP for cheaper than Wolf 7.62x39.

Looking at The Armory and Georgia Arms:

Wolf 7.62x39 = $173/1000
Wolf .223 = $300/1000
Wolf .308 = $220/1000
Wolf 9mm = $145/1000
Georgia Arms .40 JHP = $220/1000

And I don't even know what shipping would be for any of them. Whereas Wal-Mart has WWB 9mm for $14.88/100, and I think you can get the WWB and Remington 147gr JHP for just a little more. I think Dick's has it on sale for $7.00/50 sometimes. I'm not sure since I only get plinking FMJ from Wal-Mart and I would prefer to get premium 9mm like DPX or Federal HST, but I really wouldn't have any problem stocking up on cheap 147-grain JHP and using that.

So there's certainly nothing wrong with the SKS, but the 9mm carbine is cheaper and even ammo is cheaper, and I think carrying it around and the general operation of it would be a little easier for the average person.

I guess if I was already a 7.62x39 guy I'd be more inclined to go with the SKS, but for me that would mean adding a new caliber, whereas I already have plenty 9mm around.
 
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...well played, sir.


+1 for a hi-point carbine! 9mm is still cheap and in good supply, and effective from a carbine. This gun gets good reviews too.
 
I vote for cheap .22 rifles and pistols, If there going to waste ammo, have them waste cheap ammo with little recoil. .22 is cheap to buy (before end of world). Don't know many people who would rush 10 people firing .22 at them.

Me i will stick with my M1
 
inexperienced shooters will just waste ammo in a semi-auto, bolt action will force them to aim there shots.
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No, they just miss slower. And perhaps more often as they focus more on kicking the action open after a few shots. Sometimes, MN's get a little unwilling after a few shots. A semi-auto gives you 30 rounds without breaking position.

Also, I have seen brand new shooters rapidly put lead on target at 200-300 yards time and time again. It's about the person and the instructor. Poor marksmanship is not a given with novice shooters.

As for SKS versus AK, it is a hard choice. The SKS is somewhat cheaper, (Though cheap supplies are dwindling,) but the AK takes easy to change 30 round mags. Stripper clips can be troublesome to master. The accuracy difference is a crap shoot. 3MOA is fine for combat, that's still Minute of Bad Guy at 300 yards, and at more realistic engagement ranges, it's dead on.

For extra SHTF weapons, I comb the pawn shops for 12ga shotguns. A $100 Ithaca 37, Winchester Model 12 or Remington 870 isn't really going to break the bank, and has plenty of other uses besides TEOTWAWKI. If I suddenly get rich, I will buy brakes and machines and crank out my own little collection of Kyber Kalashnikovs, but failing that, shotguns work just fine.
 
What kind of enemy are you expecting to face? My guess would be in a SHTF scenario it would be raiders looking to take stockpiled food, clothing, supplies, etc. A handful of friendlies with inexpensive Russian M91/30's, or SKS rifles guarding the house and patrols with Remington 870's and radios would do the trick.

The operative word here is stockpile. If the social infrastructure breaks down and you've got the supplies to survive then you will need the means to defend those supplies from those with less foresight.
 
1) Make friends with your neighbors. You want to know them, and they should know you. That's the most important thing.

2) Have a few extra boomsticks - hey, we almost all "collect" one thing or another... When I see a cheap SKS, I tend to pick it up. Why? Why not? And I've got a few thousand rounds of ammo. I've also got a few 10/22s, etc., etc... And shotguns I've never shot. Heck, rifles I've never shot.

3) Strategy and tactics. Find out who in the group is leadership material - not a politician, but a strategy-minded fellow. Someone who can spot weak points, upgrade strong points, etc., etc. Sticking everyone in a circle and waiting for the bad guys to attack won't work.

4) It's also not all about boomsticks - what do you know about improvised weaponry? Can you make your own explosive? Can you create a delivery system? Can you fabricate low-tech land mines?

5) And it's not all about weapons and tactics - Sometimes it's just about getting along.
 
I guess a little diversity might be good. I might go with:

2 x Mossberg 12-gauge = $150 x 2
4 x Hi-Point Carbine = $150 x 4
1 x 10/22 = $175
750 rounds Wolf 00-buck = $270
3,000 rounds 9mm JHP = $450
4,400 rounds .22 LR = $80
cheap 3-9X scope = $35-$45
6 x digital radios $80-$90

So if you had $2,000 to outfit everybody, that might be OK, but most people are already going to have a .22, a decent scope, at least one shotgun and some ammo, so I don't know how relevant it is to get that detailed. You could get a lot of stuff cheaper just looking around for good deals. I'd really rather have two .22s -- they'd be good for something even if it's just general practice and hunting little things.
 
Neighborhood

Mr. bogie has a point.

It's not as much fun, but he has a point.

You don't have to call it a Neighborhood Watch, but knowing your neighbors and their capabilities and to what degree you can count on them -- and to what degree they can count on you -- will make the confusion of "opening day" a little more livable.

Training with them, even if you just call it "relaxing at the range," will improve the bond and mutual understanding.

However, since we're having fun here, let me also endorse the Hi-Point 995 carbine. With a red dot on it, you can place lead inside four-inch circles at 150 yards. Yeah, you'll need plenty of spare mags, but you can carry a lot of 9mm ammo. Not effective for body armor, but a red dot can make that less of a problem.

As has been mentioned, there aren't many people, armored or not, willing to charge into gunfire of any calibre.

At around $200 per rifle, $15 per mag, and using the cheapest centerfire ammo available, I would endorse this in a defensive posture.

In a basic strat/tac situation, a position that shoots back at all is going to be a less desirable objective and one that doesn't.

Now, having said all of that, I should probably mention that, personally, I'm headed down the Saiga route. One per family member. Chambered in 5.56 NATO.

We're also ordering a supply of sand and mud to keep handy. I understand that AK actions don't work properly unless you dump sand/mud in them.

:D
 
So if you had $2,000 to outfit everybody, that might be OK
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heh I meant $2K for rifles only. W/ a bullet swagger, a little chemistry know how, and a large supply of primers I don't think bullets are going to be a problem. Well, not for me at least. I like your ideas very much though. And I think your plan is a solid one. I guess I should have phrased the question $2K for guns, $1K for the initial ammo buildup and a home base full of reloading/swagging equipment.
 
You mean you don't have enough guns to arm everybody already? Sheesh... what kind of neighbor are you? About half of my neighbors have more guns than me and I am not exactly a slacker. In fact every single person on my street that I know of owns at least one firearm of some kind.

But I will give you my answer anyway. First, figure at least 30% of the population knows how to shoot a little. So 8 X 10/22 about $1200, 3 X Remington 740/ 30-06 series (with scope) about $800. Give the Remingtons to the people who know how to shoot and give everyone else a 10/22 to blast wawy with. Whatever zombies don't fall from multiple hits with the .22s their heads will certainly explode when that .30-06 hits 'em. Have the snipers hid real good. BTW - This is only good against Zombies.
 
In a realistic SHTF scenario here in the US of A - one would have to assume that the US gov't both central and local is either gone or crippled, that the US military and national guard are either leaderless or severely crippled, and that the opposing force causing the previous two issues is not powerful enough to enforce complete compliance in their area of dominance.

In other words, for a SHTF scenario to be worth discussing - we are either talking about an internal revolution 1776 style or an invasion by opposing land forces. (Situations like Waco and Ruby Ridge have only one outcome and one ending - Big government will win. So in order for a SHTF scenario - where what we do really even matters - requires that our Big brother government is crippled or preoccupied along with it's military.)

If this is the case and situation, there should be plenty of available 5.56m M4s and M16s. The scenery of the US would change to look like the battlefields of Europe in the 20th century with military leftovers laying about all over the place. Water, food, and medical supplies would be in short supply for the struggling military and almost non-existent for civilians. If civility broke down, groups of bandittis would roam through cities looking for scarce supplies.

What weapon would I want? - The one that can be best supplied with ammo. Since stores and the economy would have crumbled at this point - military ammo dumps would be the only reliable place to arm yourself. Of course at this point - both the US army, or the opposing force whoever they may be - would be doing their darnedest to keep firearms out of the hands of civilians.

Hence - the only way you can retrieve ammo is directly off the numerous dead corpses that would undoubtedly litter the area. All this to say then - that probably the best weapon to have would be the weapon that can use military rounds. Here in the US I propose that the most likely available round would be.... the .223. I believe that it would be more available than any other round. Sure you have to sneak into an ammo dump to get it... but it is better than nothing - might be good to have some friends on the inside.

Of course better yet - why not join or create constitutional state militias - organize - subcontract with the government(if it still exists) and fight organized.

This is the only kind of realistic SHTF scenario I can think of.
What kind of situation do you imagine when we talk about a SHTF scenario?
How did we get to said point?
How will you resupply the SKS or AK?
What is the cause of said situation?

I think perceiving the realistic causes of a SHTF scenario and being correct about the cause or possible cause is just as important (if not more so) than being prepared in the small generic sense of having a stockpile of weapons and ammo. Your stockpile of weapons and ammo will do you no good if the enemy is using poison gas, anthrax, tanks, carpet bombing, or nukes.

I have no intention of hijacking the thread - but I would be interested in hearing other reasonable possibilities which would lead to a "realistic" SHTF situation.

Thanks,
Jaron
 
I would have neither AK or SKS.....

With the budget imposed I would have to go with The scoped 22/22mag. & Marlin / Winchester .30-.30.
For $2000 I could have relatively 15-20 people armed with specific duties.

I have always year after year been able to pick up 22/22mag & 30-30's for $100.00 - $150.00 especially after hunting season and before christmas. Its like a favorite time of the year for me.

Ruger 10-22's can be a hellion with a 40 rnd mag.
Marlin Mod 60 can be an attention getter in 22LR. The 22's also fill most of the food gathering duties and can be made very quiet!
Marlin 22 mag can snipe as far out as 500+ yards with ease in capable hands.
and The 30-30 speaks for itself...One viet nam vet told me he sat in the jungle and desperately wished he had his winchester 30-30 from home in lieu of the M-16 he was holding. He said that day would have been a lot different if he had it.

And remember if this occurred you would have to fight for your life to keep any supply of food, the liberals that want your guns would have no guns, food nor the ability to survive, they would attack at some point.

You also would have to establish a military of sorts to survive. No one would survive alone in my opinion. There are too many tasks to do and watch your back is one of them. As stated above, I would give out gun and duties with them. A platoon works together for the good of all, and platoons work together as well.

This is a deeper subject than I gave it credit for....good thread! I will even give it more thought.
 
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Darn You People!

You create such interesting threads that by the time I read through them all I've had to re-log in three times...

First for my answer to the question.

I'm assuming that I'm not spending the 2k to arm myself, as that's already taken care of.

I'm also assuming your using the 2k to procure arms for a neighborhood militia. I'm also assuming your using the 2k to support your existing arms. As such I'm not so worried about providing 10/22's for the masses. Also I already own several shotguns so for my personal situation again not necessary. I'm also assuming that due to my existing collection that hunting of any kind is unnecessary because the tools area already there.

My thought is to use this money to supplement and flesh out the needs for protection for my loved ones. Plain and simple. So here's my 2k well spent.

2 SKS - Cheap easy to use to put a gun in an inexperienced persons hands. Ammo mostly wasted hence only give them 10 shots at a time to waste.

2 AK's - I chose the 500 dollar AKM's that were posted initially due to the folding stock, it's more practical for patrol than even a collapsible stock.

1 Mossberg 590 w/ short barrel to flesh out the rest of the shotguns again an internal LE tool an added bonus is that it comes with a full length barrel too.

1 lever action .357 or a pump 30-06 or .223. This would again suplement the rest of the arms in an all around use.

Again all of these would be selected to work opposite what I already have. They use Ammo I already have stored and I didn't even break out my Mosin Nagants!

On a second note BIGRED brought out a good point. I try not to spend a great deal "fantasizing" about TEOTWAWKI simply because when it happens, we're all gonna be wrong anyways! But here's a brief synopsis.

A. Yes the US gov. local and federal will be disabled, otherwise it's not TEOTWAKI.

B. If there is an enemy force it will probably be around but not in a direct in control sort of way. The U.S. is to big with to many crazies running around without guns for any new government to have an easy time taking over. Just the way it is.

C. Natural Disaster - This is more what I think it will be or in conjuntion with the rest. Think Katrina happening concurently with the 1903 San Fran earthquake meets Tsunami the biblical Rockin and Rolling of St. James the Revelator.

D. Plague/Biological warfare. It goes with C. All those rotting bodies with no one picking them up, = wicked nasty stuff! Poisoned water etc. This is gonna suck no ands if's or buts!

E. Roving bands of nutjobs (see B).

I know that no one can be prepared for everything but I have tried to get a years supply together. It's slow going. I also have medical supplies, nothing serious but it's there, on hand. I've also got a water purification system and wheat grinder. So of course there's a lot else to do, where's everyone else.
 
what is the fascination with shtf scenarios?

this kind of thread gets started 3 or 4 times a week.

who do you think you are going to have to fight off? the 82nd airborne?
 
If you don't like SHTF scenarios, then why open the threads that are about them?
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I did not say I did not like them. Just wondered what the fascination with them is.
 
You mean you don't have enough guns to arm everybody already? Sheesh... what kind of neighbor are you? About half of my neighbors have more guns than me and I am not exactly a slacker. In fact every single person on my street that I know of owns at least one firearm of some kind.
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I don't live in Texas.:( Good to know that Texans will be safe from zombies though!
 
I would buy two Benelli M2 Tactical shotguns and a lot of ammo. Give them to the toughest people in the group and tell the other people to hide behind them. You can't go wrong with two 12gauge shotguns with 6 rounds each.
 
A standard levergun in 357, 44 Magnum, or 30-30 will be just fine. An SKS would be great, as would any AK or AR.
 
bigred82 that was an excellent post.


I have no intention of hijacking the thread - but I would be interested in hearing other reasonable possibilities which would lead to a "realistic" SHTF situation.
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Plague (lots of nasty bugs just waiting to pop up)
yellowstone supervolcano
asteroids (700x more likely than winning the lotto w/ one ticket, good thing we only spend a million bucks watching 10% of the sky)
Climate change (not in our lifetime though...)
Zombies :D
 
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