30-223 (30 Apache) questions

[adcoch1]

So I'm thinking again (dangerous, I know) about building a rifle with better performance than the 300 blackout in a bolt gun, but following the same idea. I recently heard about 30 Apache ( not 7.62x40wt) that is supposed to be a 223 case necked to 30 cal. I threw a few 223 cases thru my 308 expander to open the neck, and seated a 150 grn bullet just to see what it looks like. Now I wanna build one! Anybody have any actual info on cartridge dimensions for 30 Apache? Or am I in wildcat country? I'd love it if I could just buy dies and rent a chamber reamer, but I want the full 45mm long case. Might have to try this out...

20170512_143634

• adcoch1
• Aug 10, 2017

300blk, 30x45, 223

pic is of 300 blk, my version of 308x45 and 223

 

[LoonWulf]

I considered rechambering my .300blkout ruger ranch to .30-223, but decided it was not cost effective.
There are dies and reamers available for the .30-223, but they are expensive, and none of the rental places i talked to had the reamer so youd have to buy one and the guages.
The 7.62x40 with a long throat was another option i looked at, but again it was hard to find anyone with a reamer. Atleast the dies for the WT are cheaper.

All in all, if you really want one it would be a cool project, but its not a cheap project.
I can run some numbers on quickloads when i get home, but if i remember correctly i was expecting to equall or better regular loads in the x39.

 

[adcoch1]

Yeah, it seems to be about equivalent to 762x39 but just using cheap, easy to make brass like the blackout. 10 extra mm over the blackout should help quite a bit though on velocity. I just can't help but think that this with a 125grn tnt on top would make a great antelope/deer gun, or other like sized game, especially in a really light rifle. Won't do anything 7.62x39 can't, but it would be fun I think. The dies I found were $200 bucks though, so yeah, not cheap...

 

[adcoch1]

Half the reason I'm looking for cartridge dimensions is curiosity about possibly loading with 300blk dies set out the extra 10 mm. If that'll work I'd have a reamer built and try this out!

 

[someguy2800]

There are dies and reamers out there for 30-223. I was considering it for a contender pistol. I made some mockup rounds just like you did

 

[adcoch1]

My google skills must be weak though, Ive yet to find a reamer that has info stating that it leaves the case at 45mm. I've seen 30-223 called 7.62x4wt for the Wilson Tactical version, and the 30 Apache called .30-.223. Supposedly the 30 Apache is 45mm long.... Just need to get better info.

 

[RPRNY]

There's another short action, somewhat lower power 308 cartridge you may want to consider. It's not as new and trendy perhaps as sticking a .308 bullet in a .223 case, but more powerful and capable of pushing bullets up to 170 grs at @ 2,300 fps, even more in a bolt gun. Readily available loaded ammunition, dies, and brass. It's called the 30-30 Winchester.

 

[adcoch1]

There's another short action, somewhat lower power 308 cartridge you may want to consider. It's not as new and trendy perhaps as sticking a .308 bullet in a .223 case, but more powerful and capable of pushing bullets up to 170 grs at @ 2,300 fps, even more in a bolt gun. Readily available loaded ammunition, dies, and brass. It's called the 30-30 Winchester.

Very true. But the bolt head is a little bit hard to find in a bolt gun nowadays, and brass isn't free. 7.62x39 also does the job in a bolt gun for similar performance to the venerable 30-30, but again, difficult to find bolt and brass isn't free...

 

[LoonWulf]

Might contact PTG about the dimensions of the .30-223 they offer. I never got that far in my planning....as you said x39 fills the same role and is available in factory rifles.

 

[someguy2800]

http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/30-c...ber-reamers/3457-30-223-remington-reamer.html

This should be the one you want

 

[hdwhit]

adcoch1 wrote:
Or am I in wildcat country?

There does appear to be some data floating around the web; much of it of unknown origin and thus without objective pressure information. I think it would be prudent to treat it as a wildcat and develop accordingly. But don't worry, it's only taken me 30 years to get the kinks worked out on my 5.7mm Johnson wildcat loads - it will certainly keep you off the street at night.

 

[LoonWulf]

Im willing to support the project with what ever QL data you need.
Id offer some 125s, and blackout dies to try with but those went away with the rifle.

 

[adcoch1]

Thanks loonwulf, I have bullets on hand and a set of 300 blk dies handy. Btw, if you want to do a few quickload checks, try out 4227 and 4198 for powders, and also check in an 18-20" barrel as well as a 24" barrel. That will help me decide if this project is worth it as I shop for the parent rifle for this baby... I have an email in to PTG about their reamer, so I guess we'll see how that goes.

 

[LoonWulf]

Will do, ill be home this evening. If you get a chance can you check water weight on a primed case? I can check one when i get home as well, just gotta up size a piece of brass.

 

[cota]

Could you not make a 300 Savage bolt action rifle much cheaper,if the 3030win head is not ideal, ok the 300 savage is not modern but its still a great round killed a lot and has heritage the new up and comers can only aspire to, where as the old 300 sav as done it and got all the T shirts from all the concerts.
Just saying.

.

 

[adcoch1]

Nothin wrong with the 300 Savage, I'd love a 99 in 300 Savage more than a 73 in 30-30...

 

[Captcurt]

Sounds like the 30 Apache is a glorified 30 TCU. Thompson Center made several oddballs based on the 223 case. I had a 7mm TCU in a 14" Contender. I fireformed the brass by shooting a 223 in the gun and then ran it through the sizing die. It was pretty good out to about 150 yards with 120 Ballistic Tips and made a mess out of a yearling Whitetail that I shot quartering to me. After that I made sure that they were broadside to me..

 

[LoonWulf]

I didnt know tc did a 30tcu, ive considered the 6 and 7 a few times.

 

[LoonWulf]

So i just checked the 30-223 listed in QL, and that cartridge uses a 35mm case and OAL of 2.260, obviously its ment for ar mags....
Ill run some calculations using the WT, and a water weighed .223 case in a few mins see where that gets us.

 

[jmorris]

So I'm thinking again (dangerous, I know) about building a rifle with better performance than the 300 blackout in a bolt gun,

I think I would pick the 30 AR over the .223 based 30's if I just wanted something different. Handloading, there isn't much I can't make the "old" 308 do, except fit in a 223 AR 15 mag. Without that constraint I would just pick it, nothing special need be done with a 308 bolt gun from 150 grain cast and coated plinkers using pistol powder up to power levels none of the .223 based 30's could ever achieve.

 

[LoonWulf]

I think I would pick the 30 AR over the .223 based 30's if I just wanted something different. Handloading, there isn't much I can't make the "old" 308 do, except fit in a 223 AR 15 mag. Without that constraint I would just pick it, nothing special need be done with a 308 bolt gun from 150 grain cast and coated plinkers using pistol powder up to power levels none of the .223 based 30's could ever achieve.

Thats true, but a 30x45 would be cool for someone who already has a small bolt faced gun.
As long as the cost could be kept down.

So i couldnt find any cartridges in quickloads that were what we wanted, so i made a cartridge profile based on the simply expander ball necked up case i made.
All number are aproximate because i dont have the correct tools to measure the dimensions accurately
case length 1.73
base to shoulder length 1.435
shoulder length.043
neck length.235
base dia .376
large dia of shoulder .351
dia neck at base of shoulder .325
neck at case mouth .324

Water Capacity 33.1 avg of 5 tries

For the quickloads numbers the only inputs i could really change (that i could find, im not real good with quickloads yet) from the WT was the case length, and water capacity.

anyway here are the numbers QL spat out
Used a COAL of 2.415, which puts the 125tnt right at the base of the neck on my theoretical case.

I used a max pressure of 60K, which is higher than the .223 map of 55, and lower than the x45 map of 63ish

imr4227 max loads are at 103% capacity, 24" 2600, 20" 2522, 18" 2478, 16" 2466

imr4198 max loads are at 115% capacity, 24" 2653, 20" 2573, 18" 2529, 16" 2474

Not posting actual charges because of all the guess work here.

x39 does pretty much the same at 10Kpsi less

 

[LoonWulf]

OH, i dont know if the .300 acc dies will work as anything more than neck sizers unless you have the 30x45 reamer cut with less case taper.

The blackouts based on an unmodified x45 cases, so is about .01 larger at the shoulder/body junction (.361 vs .351) since it is farther down the x45 case taper. Someone with more experience than me could judge wether that .01 matters or not.

 

[adcoch1]

Thats true, but a 30x45 would be cool for someone who already has a small bolt faced gun.
As long as the cost could be kept down.

So i couldnt find any cartridges in quickloads that were what we wanted, so i made a cartridge profile based on the simply expander ball necked up case i made.
All number are aproximate because i dont have the correct tools to measure the dimensions accurately
case length 1.73
base to shoulder length 1.435
shoulder length.043
neck length.235
base dia .376
large dia of shoulder .351
dia neck at base of shoulder .325
neck at case mouth .324

Water Capacity 33.1 avg of 5 tries

For the quickloads numbers the only inputs i could really change (that i could find, im not real good with quickloads yet) from the WT was the case length, and water capacity.

anyway here are the numbers QL spat out
Used a COAL of 2.415, which puts the 125tnt right at the base of the neck on my theoretical case.

I used a max pressure of 60K, which is higher than the .223 map of 55, and lower than the x45 map of 63ish

imr4227 max loads are at 103% capacity, 24" 2600, 20" 2522, 18" 2478, 16" 2466

imr4198 max loads are at 115% capacity, 24" 2653, 20" 2573, 18" 2529, 16" 2474

Not posting actual charges because of all the guess work here.

x39 does pretty much the same at 10Kpsi less

This more than I hoped for as guesswork, I was hoping for 2400fps and this looks like closer to 2600?! That is awesome! And to all the guys offering other cartridge ideas, I appreciate the responses, and truthfully you are all correct that there may be better ways to do what I'm looking for, but I really like the looks of this cartridge idea based on it's powder usage, and still getting usable velocity above what the blackout can deliver. I have a 308 and I have some 300 savage dies in case that good deal on a Savage 99 comes up, but this little 30x45 sounds like a viable option for a kids hunting rifle, and may be very economical to shoot.

 

[zb338]

I have a Contender barrel chambered for the .223 necked to 7mm how would that
compare to the Blackout it's called the 7MM TCU. Forget it I just read up on it and
it seems that the bullet has to be seated to deeply to work well in ARs.
Zeke

 

[adcoch1]

Remember for MY project I am not handicapping myself by trying to fit in an ar15 mag, I am working on a bolt gun. If it works I may look at a single shot too, but I'm not getting ahead of my self yet. I really want to see what the utility of these small brass and cheap 30 cal projectiles could be when combined. I have a 300blk in the ar, and it's fun but kinda limited in its use. As loonwulf showed us with his quickload data, the full 45 mm case should make for a lot better velocity potential than the blackout. If the reamer drawings look close enough to what the blackout cartridge is, I may give this a try. Thinking about a Savage short action for the rifle...