300,000 M-14s destined for trash pile

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Dr. Rob:

I noticed that bit about $100.00 M-1's in the petition. The guy is way off on that, as the last time I inquired, as I recall, the CMP was charging around $500.00. A U.S. Military M-1, in serviceable or possibly better condition might well be worth that price, but that is beside the point.

Also, Mr. Yoder's mention of the necessity to "civilianize" the M-14 seems strange, since selective fire capability was long since removed from the M-14, via removal/replacement of parts, as well as, from what I had read some years back, 7 welds, specified by the Ordinance Dept. which supposedly came up with the modification. One takes it that the military didn't want any "field revitilazition" of selective fire capability.

As to the procedure mentioned, removal of a "lug", while I've fired M-14's a couple of times, I never got into the "insides" of one.
 
A couple of posters have opined to the effect that the petition is dated, poorly thought out, is a cheap political stunt and so on, all of which might be correct, HOWEVER.

I believe that the HOWEVER is important, due to the fact that other no longer used military small arms have been destroyed at taxpayer expense, there was those M-1 Rifles and Captain Crunch, and or the ones simply torch cut and or sawed through, to mention just one instance, how many am I missing.

12,000 plus signatures on this petition just might make some sort of an impression with those congress critters who look the other way respecting such wanton waste as the demiliterization(destruction) of military small arms, "surplus to needs", or otherwise "unserviceable", small arms which in fact, could be sold to law abiding Americans, thereby perhaps returnimng some money to the public purse.
 
Even if the government sold these for $300 each, that would still be 9 million bucks! I guess that is just chicken scratch to our lords and ladies in congress. What the hay, they can get 9 million with just one small tax increase. Why bother trying to save any money? There is more where that came from.:rolleyes: Never mind that many people are losing their jobs and can't pay their bills, 9 million just isn't worth bothering with.
 
One must realize that a lot of the time when dealing with the government and finances what could seem like a very simple cost saving procedure could in actuality cost more in the long run. This is due to the many hidden costs that are present in a bureaucracy; these can range from paperwork, storage of paperwork, and any other people that need to be paid to transfer these guns to the CMP. I do not know if releasing these guns to the CMP will cost the government anything but one cannot assume that the money made will magically outweigh the costs. Nevertheless these hidden costs need to be taken into consideration. Just by claiming that the government would save money does not make it true, unless one does a rather extensive analysis of the costs.

Now back to my previous argument. If the government releases 300,000 M14 rifles into the market then they would be violating market principles. Springfield Armory, Bushmaster, Armalite and any similar rifle producer compete within themselves to meet what is a fair and competitive price for their firearms. It might be the case that we all think that a Springfield M1A is overpriced and they are exploiting the consumer, but the reality is that they are simply meeting their price that is demanded. If they were overcharging people significantly they would go out of business since people would substitute a Springfield M1A for a Bushmaster AR-15 since they would find the AR-15 more economically feasible. I do realize these rifles are very different but that in an economic sense people will substitute a comparable product in place of a more expensive one. So if Springfield is selling their M1As at a competitive price what then happens if the government fills the market with rifles that are grossly under the market value? It will force Springfield, Bushmaster and the like to drop their prices to an uncompetitive level. This will then potentially drive them out of business. Think of it this way. If the government gave the rifles to Springfield instead of the CMP this would then be construed as a subsidy from the government. Conversely if the government gives away these rifles to someone else this then can be construed as a fine against Springfield. By putting such a massive quantity of rifles into the market the government then runs the risk of driving legitimate gun manufacturers out of business.

Oh yeah and if I was a communist Blain I do not think I would be using such elaborate market based arguments to make a point. If offered to us I would gladly buy a surplus M14, I just realize the damage such a prospect can have upon a free market.
 
Number 6,
You make some good points, however if you go to the civilian marksmanship program website you will see all the prerequisites to buying one of their rifles. They will not be competing directly with newly manufactured rifles. They will barely be considered indirect competitors. Most people doen't even know about the CMP

DW Drang,
I seem to remember in the American Rifleman I got yesterday there was an ad for the CMP and it said something about it being funded through congress.
 
Number 6, don't feel bad.

Blain likes to use that communist barb, it may be one of his favorites tools against people describing a dissenting opinion:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18184&highlight=communist


I didn't sign the petition. It needs some massaging, and correction of errors, before anybody high in the government food chain will take it seriously. The intent is good, as is the cause. But it gets tripped up in the execution...
 
Isn't that sweet. Let's destroy guns worth anywhere from $500 to $1,500 just for the fun of it. I wonder is Springfield Armory has given them some input on this? It seems to me they would want them desroyed so they can sell more new ones. Maybe the US Gov could cut them a small commission so as to alay their fears.
 
Number 6:

Perhaps unknowingly, perhaps not so, you might have made a strong case for the need of government reform, what with your quite valid reference to all those "hidden costs".

Exactly who is it that is served by the imposition of such costs? Readers might think on that.
 
12,396 Signatures currently!

What a waste by our illustrious leaders and an insult to those who were issued this rifle in defense of our country. :rolleyes: :banghead:

Please cut and paste the link and e.mail to all your shooting friends. The M14 makes an excellent rifle to shoot CMP service rifle matches, not to mention the fact it is a piece of history.

www.PetitionOnline.com

Regards,
hps
 
Whoever started that petition should be shot as a traitor.

He didn't even have the knowledge that the DCM doesn't exist, and the letter is so old that he mentions $100 M1s and he suggests that M14s would sell for $650.

What a tremendous waste of signatures, considering they will get a 3 minute laugh on Capitol Hill. If it were correctly written and up to date, we might actually raise an eyebrow.

Sorry to curdle the milk with truth.
 
For whatever it might be worth, there are problems with the petition, said problems have been mentioned earlier.

Additionally, I e-mailed Mr. Yoder, pointing out the factual errors, errors that I believe I had mentioned in an earlier post. I have not had a response of any kind from Mr. Yoder.

Factual errors that I saw are as follows:

1. The CMP is not selling M-1 Rifles for anything near $100.00, I believe it's more like $500.00, which they might be worth, but that's another matter entirely.

2. The tag end of the petition, as I recall, described a modification routine that would "civilianize" any M-14's that might be sold. Given that selective fire capability had already been modified out of the rifle, by the military, what he described seems unnecessary.
2A. The Ordinance Dept., long ago, came up with a procedure that included the removal/replacement of parts, and as I recall from reading about it, 7 distinct welds. This was intended to preclude "field restoration" of selective fire capability.
2B. Given that the procedure was performed, as specified, I doubt that the rifles could be "readilly restored" to selective fire capability, which would be a violation of existing law anyhow.
2C. It had been observed, years ago, that the M-14, in fullautomatic mode, was virtually uncontrollable, which I believe was the reason for selective fire capability being removed.
2D. Given that the Browning Automatic rifle, then available, was controllable in full automatic mode, that capability in the M-14 seemed to serve no valid purpose.
2E. The original M-14 was supposed to replace both the M-1 and the BAR. It was a good enough rifle of and in itself, but all it accomplished was to replace the M-1.

Readers, feel free to correct any errors that you might find in the above. It remains, in my view, that the past destruction of surplus to needs military small arms, semi-automatics as well as handguns that is, was and remains an unacceptable, politically inspired waste of money, such as should have merited someone being taken out and hung. More likely such waste should have brought about the hanging of a bunch of people. Unfortunately, that didn't happen, which leads to things like the petition in question, poor thing that it might be. That aspect, in my view, is something that should not be forgotten. It is also something that our government should be beaten about the head with.
 
One of GUNED's readers sent a letter to the Pentagon about the destruction of M14s, and received the following reply. Seems to me that this excuse would preclude the entire CMP program.

-Bill St. Clair

===========

http://guned.com/pages/news.htm

Letter Back To GUNED Northwest Radioman From The Pentagon...
6-22-03

Phill19- GUNED Northwest Radioman

I received a reply from Glenn F. Lamartin, Director Defense Systems of the Office of the Under Secretary of Defense to a fax I sent to President Bush.

Address letter 3000 Defense Pentagon Washington D.C. 20301-3000

Dear Mr. Lee:

Thank you for your recent letter to President George W. Bush concerning the sale of Department of Defense semi-automatic rifles to civilian citizens.

I understand your concern for the stewardship of our valuable government resources. The Department maintains a life-cycle management process for weapons, including small arms, which provides tight control of over weapons from acquisition through demilitarization. This process, under Department regulations, does not permit the sale of military-use weapons to civilian citizens. Furthermore, the United States is party to a number of international agreements which would make the action you request problematic.

Ideas from concerned citizens are always welcome--thank you for your interest in our national security.

Sincerely,
Glenn F. Lamartin
Director
Defense Systems
 
George Hill:

In your short post, you noted the following:

"So Glenn F. Lamartin has never heard of the CMP?"

Possibly so, but then what can one expect from "civil service" types, or politically appointed bureaucrats, whichever of the two Lamartin might be.

Of course, there is another possibility, which I enter upon with some trepidation.

Amongst what is sometimes known as "the fair sex", you may have noticed a passing strange capability or ability, that of selective hearing/selective vision/selective understanding.

I assume that Mr. Lamartin, by definition, is not a member of "the fair sex", however it is possibile that he somehow has managed to share or acquire, perhaps via "withchcraft", some of their peculiar abilities, those listed above.

He certainly has acquired some facility with that most strange of all lingustic skills, "bureaucratese".
 
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