308 Semi-automatic

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We don't have as many choices here north of the border - we can't have FALs, G3's or AK-based systems, for example, but M14s are cheap, so a lot of guys have those and love 'em. I just got my RFB, though, and would HIGHLY recommend it - I've been really happy with it so far, although sourcing mags here has been a bit of an issue :cuss: (being stuck with one 5-rounder sucks, not to mention that it looks goofy!)

MilletDMS-11-4x24001.gif
 
1stmarine said:
General Disarray,
You are right!!! the trigger is a joke as in their attempt to 'sporterize' the AK the trigger is connected with a long arm and instead of pulling it feels more like lifting. You can actually use it but with a US made tapco G2 trigger for $25 the improvement is 200%. The good thing about the trigger being like that, like in the saiga shotguns, is that the conversion is even easier. There are no back pins to drill out. Simply remove the trigger plate at the bottom, put a tapco or other AK grip and presto! the trigger counts for 3 922r compliance parts which is great as it is also a huge improvement. A US made surefire magazine will give you 3 parts too so you do not need to do anything else but after you move the trigger you need the grip and the stock otherwise it will look like an abomination.

You can actually get the entire thing compliant for around $180 depending of options you want and how fancy you want it.

Read this post.... http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=567005

Cheers,
E.
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1stMarine, I have been saving my pennies for a M1A squad scout. However, after reading so many talk about the Fals, Cetmes, etc. being just as good for less money I was cruising forums to learn as much as possible before making a buy. I know I still want a M1A someday, but you may have talked me into a Saiga. I have read several owners say they had trouble getting sub MOA groups from out of the box M1A scouts. I can't see paying twice as much for groups twice as big. I just wanted to thank everyone for this thread because I'm in the same boat and this was all great info.
 
I currently own, or have owned most of the popular .308 rifles. FAL's, HK91's, M1A's, AR10, etc.

This rifle by far tops them all. It's the most modern, well thought out and nicest shooting .308 semi-auto I've ever owned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0lwxHUiTcw

Now it's just a matter of me locating another one so I can have two. :)
 
CobraGT, you have a Tavor and I've wanted one of those for years! We keep hearing rumors that X company is going to make them here in the States and it never comes to fruition. I wish I could lay my hands on one, just because it's new (to me).

That Kel-Tec looks very cool. When they are a little more available around here (people are buying them as fast as they're making them) I plan on picking one up and testing it out.
 
Davidfl said:
whats better guys a bolt action or Semi-automatic i no its off topic sorry guys asking so much its my first rifle im going crazy in im make yous go crazy sorry
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You need to decide the rifle's main role...

For range work? A good bolt rifle is hard to beat. Within your price range, more accurate, much easier to mount a scope, better trigger, negates the need for mags, etc.

M
 
DSA SA58. I just did the research over the past month- cruising message boards, talking to various gunsmiths, etc. Save a couple hundred bucks more and get one... in the meantime start saving for ammo too because each round is going to cost you at least $1 unless buying in bulk and then it's still .50 a round. That's for good stuff.

Anyway, the reputation of both DSA and the FAL in general is excellent. If you read about bad DSA stuff you are either reading about a recall they had once or pieced together stuff or something other than brand new.

The FAL is accurate out to 300 yards easily. Some farther than that. In my opinion if you want MOA accuracy past 500 yards a bolt action is the way to go.

What do you want this rifle for? If it's one of those "end of the world" scenarios it makes extra sense to go with a FAL since 90+ countries use or have used them. Lots of parts and ammo will be around for a long time.

There is a lot of merit in a bolt action if it is going to be to develop your skills as a rifleman or even for general purpose stuff. The chances of actually needing a battle rifle are so ridiculously small though many people, for whatever reason, like to think they are being "prepared" by buying an assault weapon. Truth be told, I'm willing to bet if it came down to it you would have exactly the same chances of surviving with a .22 as with a .308 because it would have lots more to do with dumb luck and knowing basic survival skills like getting clean water and building a fire than it would to be fending off some imagined army with your weapon.
 
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I have read several owners say they had trouble getting sub MOA groups from out of the box M1A scouts. I can't see paying twice as much for groups twice as big. I just wanted to thank everyone for this thread because I'm in the same boat and this was all great info.
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The M1A scouts and Socom are great systems. People that complain about them should look into other factors as they should be getting pretty good accuracy but one thing is true, I am not getting better groups out of them than the converted saiga 16". 100% Reliability, simplicity and dead accurate? I am not buying more .308's I have plenty of them now but if I had to do it all over again and I knew as much as I know now I would start with the little dandy carbines from Russia.
The targets that I posted I have many more. Very few carbines can print groups like that but obviously many bolt rifles.
Cheers,
E.
 
Davidfl, if you go with a semi-auto you're going to eventually find yourself reloading -- unless you're very wealthy, of course. One thing not mentioned in this thread is that while the HK-91 is a superb, albeit heavy, rifle, HKs are murder on brass. If you're just shooting Berdan-primed surplus NATO ammo this is not an issue, but otherwise, it's a consideration. I have a SOCOM II and it returns reloadable brass in a very nice group (not to mention the bullet groups are superb, too.
 
One last thing... a .308 semi-auto for "home defense":uhoh:? Unless by "home" you mean the acres surrounding your house I'd say a rifle is a very, very poor choice for this purpose. Assuming the worst, you are going to have to account for every round fired in front of a jury, you run the risk of collateral damage to the other inhabitants of your home (and neighborhood), not to mention an extraordinary amount of property damage, the risk of fire/explosion should you happen to clip a propane tank or gas line, and something rather awkward to wield compared to a short barreled shotgun or handgun.

Given the choice of only 1 weapon it'd be a shotgun for sure. Most versatility as far as targets/hunting/defense, and they are inexpensive to purchase and shoot.
 
FNH SCAR? I would like to know more about them. Price?
Never mind, I looked them up, not available, Cost about 2700 and up, not any lighter or more accurate then an AR10, for more than twice the money. They look they might good but I'll never know.
 
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The advantage of the SCAR isn't accuracy or light but a custom fit for our troops without custom fitting every soldier. The buttstock has an adjustable pull AND an adjustable cheekpiece, it folds, and it has all the various rails, attachment points, a rugged folding sight, and SUPER LIGHT RECOIL. Supposedly lighter than anything else by a wide margin.Additionally they are extraordinarily easy to field strip- you can get one apart, cleaned, and back together in 2 mins.
I don't think that any of those features make a difference for anything but a large group of trained warriors acting in harmony. Acting alone or with a few friends in the usual "end of world" scenario, you aren't even going to have 2 mins to change a barrel if you are in a firefight while your neighbor lays down suppression fire.
Not everything good for our military makes sense for civilians and vice-versa.
 
Jeff56,
Some semiautos are very close in accuracy to bolt rifles. Some even better to many bolt actions although never close to the best hunting/sniper/tactical systems but always with the capability to take very quick follow up shots.
The saiga I posted before is around 8.5 pounds after conversion. Something pretty manageable specially in 16".
Regarding the .308 win. rounds I would initially agree with you and this is a lot of round for any sort of CQ situation if you are intending to simply use hunting or mil spec ammo. Any bullet in any caliber has a liability associated with it regardless the cartridge or system is fired from and the .308 is pretty risky as it has lots of energy and penetration but, you will be surprised how popular this has become specially with the use of special purpose frangible ammunition.
http://www.extremeshockammo.net/tactical.asp

Cheers,
E.
 
Frangible or not, .308 is going through walls... even the 9mm stuff goes through the walls, albeit in pieces.
Secondly, you better kill whoever you shoot with that stuff because the sufferings a survivor would endure would probably plead like angels trumpet-tongued in the criminal and/or civil case brought against you...
 
Motega,
We are going a little bit of topic here but a lot of folks know the .308 is the way to go for almost everything you need.

[Frangible or not, .308 is going through walls... even the 9mm stuff goes through the walls, albeit in pieces.
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Frangible will not go through cement, cinder block, brick or metal. It is designed to pulverize with hard targets.

Secondly, you better kill whoever you shoot with that stuff because the sufferings a survivor would endure would probably plead like angels trumpet-tongued in the criminal and/or civil case brought against you...
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In a CQ configuration these bullets ensure maximum energy retention w/o exit would in many cases. A problem with FMJs/SP/HP in closer quearters is overpenetration w/o expansion and then the possible liabilities. The new CQ bullets in the same case take care of both, increase lethality at close range and reduce liability. Tactics require less shots as the shots are considered extremely lethal. One center-mass shot means thread is over. Normally collapsing by hydrostatic shock. The bullet explodes not even 1 inch inside the soft targets. Same principal as the varmint grenades but bigger.

That is the idea behind the lwrc SABR system by specific request from the US special forces to be used in urban environment w/o changing calibers between that and support, suppressing or sniping roles.
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/products/lwrcs-sabr/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_McIBT3ZKpw

Whether one likes it or not that's the way it is.
 
We're not all trained warriors - and spraying frangible bullets around the house is more likely to meet with plaster or sheetrock than brick or concrete.
The "problem" is not lethality at 2 inches, it's some scared non-military dude waking up at 3am to the sound of breaking glass and shooting in a panic and gut shooting some puke who ends up sobbing about his meth problem in front of a jury with his colostomy bag hanging off the witness stand.
 
I wouldn't buy a DSA right now, lots and lots and lots of different issues. Including recalls and should have been recalls and very super slow turnaround times for warranty work. Also their idea of good to go from the box is they take responsibility after trying to get you to shoot 200$ of ammo to "break it in".

Shop around, find a nice kit gun. If you must have the best send that kit gun to your pick of a good FAL smith and have them do a complete reassemble. All DSA really is is a parts kit, USA 922r parts, new manufacture receiver and a refinish. They aren't doing turd as far as real tuning.

I've don't understand DSA, pretty much paying big money for parkerizing.
 
Above post is not correct- I;ve been doing an hour a day of cruising the boards and NEW DSA rifles have had exactly ONE recall which they, by all accounts, have been quick to acknowledge and service. All manufacturers of all products have recalls from baby food to bombs. As far as complaints regarding parts, the problems I have personally questioned- after all this purchase represents a 10 year savings and once in a lifetime rifle for me- all boiled down to people with a little knowledge (a dangerous thing) attempting to piece a FAL together from parts located LITERALLY from all corners of the Earth.

This guy didn't even know what a FAL was a week ago and you are suggesting he go buy a box of parts and build it? Or buy a box of parts and then locate someone to build it for him?

So the DSA SA58 is a kit gun?

Lastly, what kind of "tuning" would you like a production rifle done to it? Trigger job ? Offered. Custom gunsmithing from your choice of finishes to installation of sights and rails? Also offered.

Sorry but I'd rather drive a real Ferrari than a Ferrari KIT put on a VW Beetle body.

Of course, the point is moot since the SA58 is not in his price range... but since no one NEEDS a semi-auto .308 I still say save your dough and buy one when you can afford it.
 
I would go M1a or FAL. Im leaning toward the M1A because it has more readily available mags.
 
1stmarine,

Where did you get the cheek rest for your Tapco stock?

Thanks in advance,

Beentown
 
Motega,
Everyone should use what they feel comfortable using. There is no need to be 'trained warriors' but whatever anyone uses they should be trained on the actual operation and defensive shooting training otherwise if a situation comes up anything can happen.
Also knowing the state and local laws and be aware when the use a firearm is appropriate and justifiable by law but this is out of subject.
All that I intend here is to let you and folks know that frangible ammunition is an alternative to reduce risk specially with the powerfull .308
Not to eliminate ALL the RISK but definitely helps a lot. That's the main reason it was created for.
If you live in an apartment building w/o a firewall and in close proximity to other people any firearms and ammo should be considered very carefully. Also there are other ways to stop a threat at close range w/o blasting your walls.
Cheers,
E.
 
akgriffin,
When I looked at some of the ARs I tried to find preban magazines for the DPMS but I couldn't find any other than SR25 (knights armament) for $90 each and they needed modification at which point they cease to be preban anyway.
Did you or anyone find any preban that would suite the DPMS?

On the other hand I found the Rock Rivers that using the FAL metric magazines these are plentiful and cheap plus you can share with FAL systems you might have.

also SI defense makes a nice billet for the G3 mags but I am not so key of those.

Any thoughts?

Cheers,
E.
 
What I'm saying is you can give 900$ for a STG-58 kit on an Imbel receiver.

Send it to ARS or whoever and give em 400 bucks. They will do a complete reassemble and refinish.

Now you have a really awesome FAL.

DSA has gone down in quality, just look at their parts. I'd rather have Austrian parts than Brazilian...maybe that' just me, as the IMBEL receiver has been proven good.

You can have a super biz wham custom assembled FAL from one of the premier smiths in the nation for like 1400 bucks all told...Why on earth would you buy from DSA?
 
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