357 Magnum loading for Cowboy Action Shooting - component availability issues

[JimGnitecki]

Self defense loads are not relevant, if we’re discussing loads for Cowboy Action Shooting. Nobody is suggesting you use bullets this fast for your stated purpose.

While I do participate in a number of shooting sports, CAS is not one I play in regularly. But any CAS match I’ve seen always used static steel targets. Do they do it differently where you shoot? I skimmed through the SASS rules but did not see any mention of types of targets used.
Knockdown targets are common in CAS, especially in super competitive matches, because they eliminate ambuigity on whether a target was cleanly hit and whether targets were hit in the right order. They also are spectator favorites because it is more obvious what is happening.
I did find it noteworthy that SASS allows a power factor of 60 (mass in grains * velocity in fps / 1000). Sports like USPSA or IDPA which do use knock down targets have a minimum power factor of 125. Such a low PF for CAS would indicate knock down targets are not in use.
No, the knockdown targets simply have lower "trigger points" to cause a knockdown. The higher knockdown forces required in IPSC and IDPA are because the ammunition rules call for "real" self defence versus mouse fart loads.
If shooting static targets, loading any higher than minimum will do nothing for you except slow your shot-to-shot times. Which is why mouse fart loads are popular in this particular sport.
No, knockdown targets are common in CAS matches of any sophistication.
Or are you shooting somewhere that uses a different set of rules?
Local clubs sometimes don't observe the SASS rules fully, especially if they don't have a lot of money in the kitty. SASS discourages things like not requiring the costuming because it is SO integral to the game, and draws in so many spectators, but underdtands that for LOCAL matches that don't count towards any national standings, some clubs simply can't afford all the knockdown targets and fancier storefront sets, etc.

So where does your gun actually shoot with 125s and 158s at typical CAS distances? Have you tried both? It might be beneficial to try some before dismissing them out of hand.
That's currently in flux due to load testing and figruing out how to best hold that short and oddly curved grip the best way in my LARGE hands.
We understand you wanting to get your guns set up right and not doing anything to them that would be difficult to undo. But I expect the difference in POI will be negligible, for your stated purpose.

Let me ask you a question: have you tried shooting a CAS match yet? Have you talked with other shooters at these matches to see what they load with?
I have shot at many CAS matches, local and one national, for about 25 years, but stopped a few years ago when circumstyances prevented it. I want to get back into it now because it was SO much fun. Easily the most shooting fun I've had. And age is no barrier. I recall one Texas match where an 85 yrar old lady with arthritis showed us how it's done. No kidding. She was FAST.
You want to go shoot a match that features REALLY BIG targets set at close range. The challenge is not in stacking precision shots one on top of another. The challenge comes in seeing just how fast you can push yourself to get “good enough” hits on those big targets. A center hit doesn’t score any better than an edge hit. Gun handling at speed is going to be more important than whether your POI is a quarter inch off at 10 yards.
Yes, speed is more important than acccuracy in CAS.
Don’t take this the wrong way. You come across as one who wants to get everything set up just right before starting. You would be better off to go shoot a few matches with what you have, do some shooting on the timer, talk to people, and get some practical experience.
I have that practical experience. That;s how I know what I need and want.
Several people here are giving you good advice, and you seem to be dismissing it out of hand
I don't know where you got THAT idea. Check my rpelies more carefully.
.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Well I opened up my Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading version 10, and found the following data for the bullet I will be using (Hornady 158g SWC swaged, item no. 10408):

View attachment 1135927

Note that this table shows data for TiteGroup that is quite different than what Hodgdon shows for Titegroup with a cast 158g bullet. Hodgon showed a range of 4.5 g to 5.0 g with a velocity range 1028 fps to 1128 fps, out of a 10" barrel.

Here, Hornady shows their 158g swaged SWC with a Titegroup powder range of 2.9 g to 4.1g with a velocity range of 700 fps to 900 fps, out of an 8" Colt python barrel. (The barrel data is not printed on the page I photographed, but is shown at the very start of the 357 Magnum section of the loading manual.)

No pressure data is provided by Hornady, but since they are driving the swaged bullet to only a maximum of 900 fps, with only 4.1 g of Titegroup, the pressure cannot be very high.

The Accurate No. 5 is interesting, because it uses a minimum of 5.5 g and a maximum of 7.0 g within the same exact fps range. Some of you might be familiar enough with Accurate No. 5 to explain to me why this is so.

The Vihtavuori N340 is interesting as well, because it also uses more powder (3.9 g to 5.2 g), and I have used it a lot in the past, gotten great accuracy, and it burned VERY clean.

Unique is similar to the N340 in its total span of range, but uses 0.5 to 0.6 g less throughout than the N340 for similar velocities.

Of course, a lot depends upon which of these powders is actually available to me here in Canada, now, and in the forseeable future.

Keeping in mind that:
- I want to get muzzle velocity in the 750 to 800 fps range out of my 4.75" handgun barrels (versus the 8" Colt Python barrel Hornday used),
- That I am loading on a progressive press (Dillon XL750 with its OEM unaltered powder feed system)
- That I want consistency of cartridge performance (i.e. consistent powder drop is better, fuller case is better but none of these powders is going to fill much of a 357 Magnum case)
- Safety is important to me, so operating at a lower % of maximum load makes me feel better, in case the Dillon throws some extra powder into some cases
- I'd like to minimize leading, but I don't think the choice of powder will affect that since I am going for the same fps range with all of them.

and, importantly, remembering any good and bad features of the Titegroup, Accurate No.5, VV N340, or Unique powders that you have personal experience with, that the above table does not show,

in which order would you recommend I search for these powders at Canadian reseller websites?

p.s. I looked up the shapes of each of these powders:
unique = flake
Titegroup = ball
Accurate No. 5 = ball
VV N340 = extruded tubular

for what that's worth in the evaluation.
Jim G

Accurate No.5

 

[AJC1]

Another thing that might be worth trying if your shooting single action pistols is using 38 loads at 38 oal. Easy to do with flat point boolits.

 

[lordpaxman]

I am going to see what pwoders are available, but first I am going to use the online published data from the powder manufacturers to winnow down the list of worthy contenders. As you can see from my last posting above this one, there are some surprises even in the data provided by the manufacturers that make me wonder who and how some of the offical recommendations came about!

Jim G

Sounds like that’s step 1. Regarding the Hodgdon data for CAST lead bullets, I didn’t see any other post mention this, but the lead alloy in CAST bullets is harder than Swaged hence the difference in load data. That and we all know not all published data is the same for similar bullet technologies.
I didn’t suggest Titegroup just because on your list of requirements for the ultimate powder, it seemed volumetric density was a priority, and TG is the opposite of that. It does really well in other aspects, and if you do find some it would be worthwhile trying. It does burn very hot. If you choose that, you may want to look in to .38 special cases though, with small charges you can visually see them better than a .357 case.
The other option is VV has N32C which is specifically designed for CAS.
Take a look on the burn rate chart and hopefully you can find something in the top 35 or so:
https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2023-burn-rate-chart.pdf

 

[jmorris]

Note that this table shows data for TiteGroup that is quite different than what Hodgdon shows for Titegroup with a cast 158g bullet. Hodgon showed a range of 4.5 g to 5.0 g with a velocity range 1028 fps to 1128 fps, out of a 10" barrel.

Revolvers also have cylinder gaps that can bleed off pressure to push bullets down and out the barrel differently.

My records with 158’s out of a 4” 686-1 M show.

3.3 of N310 - 796-803
4.4 Clays - 793-803
4.2 Titegroup - 790-809
HS-6 - 800-804

Good point! It has been many years since I shot CAS...

Sounds like a trip to the range might be a good start. From my experience the good old boys and girls are always ready to help out a new partner even though your not new, your coming back after a long absence.

You mention you are looking for a load to compete with and you probably won’t even have to ask what they use as it will be the next thing that flows from their lips. Once you have their data, say, “well, I can’t find that powder.”, and they will tell you where they got it, might even have a stash of it, for people that will be shooting with them. That’s the kinds of things you get along with the fellowship, shooting sports are kind of the opposite of say auto racing where your competition might be much more tight lipped vs sharing competitive advantages.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Another thing that might be worth trying if your shooting single action pistols is using 38 loads at 38 oal. Easy to do with flat point boolits.

This is an interesting idea, but it prevents using standard load data, would probably not feed at all well through a lever action rifle, and is a little too radical for me. I think the idea is pretty clever in its trying to mimic a 38 Short colt load in a 38 Speical case, but I am pretty cautious about straying off of safe published loads.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Sounds like that’s step 1. Regarding the Hodgdon data for CAST lead bullets, I didn’t see any other post mention this, but the lead alloy in CAST bullets is harder than Swaged hence the difference in load data. That and we all know not all published data is the same for similar bullet technologies.
I didn’t suggest Titegroup just because on your list of requirements for the ultimate powder, it seemed volumetric density was a priority, and TG is the opposite of that. It does really well in other aspects, and if you do find some it would be worthwhile trying. It does burn very hot. If you choose that, you may want to look in to .38 special cases though, with small charges you can visually see them better than a .357 case.
The other option is VV has N32C which is specifically designed for CAS.
Take a look on the burn rate chart and hopefully you can find something in the top 35 or so:
https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2023-burn-rate-chart.pdf

Ah, I did not know about VV N32C. VV used to offer Tin Star for CAS, but removed it from their lineup for some undisclosed reason. I'll look into N32C, as I like VV powders a LOT, but again, availability may be an issue. I'll look.

Jim G

 

[AJC1]

This is an interesting idea, but it prevents using standard load data, would probably not feed at all well through a lever action rifle, and is a little too radical for me. I think the idea is pretty clever in its trying to mimic a 38 Short colt load in a 38 Speical case, but I am pretty cautious about straying off of safe published loads.

Jim G

You would be loading to 38 levels in a 357 case but the idea was clearly articulated in the video. I would only do that in a single action pistol not a lever.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Revolvers also have cylinder gaps that can bleed off pressure to push bullets down and out the barrel differently.

My records with 158’s out of a 4” 686-1 M show.

3.3 of N310 - 796-803
4.4 Clays - 793-803
4.2 Titegroup - 790-809
HS-6 - 800-804




Sounds like a trip to the range might be a good start. From my experience the good old boys and girls are always ready to help out a new partner even though your not new, your coming back after a long absence.

You mention you are looking for a load to compete with and you probably won’t even have to ask what they use as it will be the next thing that flows from their lips. Once you have their data, say, “well, I can’t find that powder.”, and they will tell you where they got it, might even have a stash of it, for people that will be shooting with them. That’s the kinds of things you get along with the fellowship, shooting sports are kind of the opposite of say auto racing where your competition might be much more tight lipped vs sharing competitive advantages.

Yes, I am a bit hampered by weather here in Southern Alberta Canada! I very briefly met some of the local CAS shooters last fall just before they broke up for the winter. They apparently don't restart until May. . Since i only met them once at their last ,match of the season, which they were rushing to complete before it got too dark to shoot, I did not get much chance to talk to any of them. It's a pretty small group yet, as they got CAS off to a very slow start at this shooting range - no one has been effectively marketing its availability even - I had to go looking for someone to contatc to even find out when they shoot!

I'm not going to let that discourage me though. Using the list of viable powders above, and adding the VV N310 you mentioned, I'm going to go looking for all those powders and see which one or ones are actually available to me. Then, try to get some actual powder, load up cartridges with differing number of grains, and test them at the rnage on the few "warmer" days (+1 to +4C = 32 to 8F) we sometimes get here in the winter. (This past week or so, we went as low as -35C = -31F, AND we got about 8 inches of snow which has NOT melted because it reamins too cold). The good thing is that I have until at least May to do test loading and test firing, before there are any local matches.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

You would be loading to 38 levels in a 357 case but the idea was clearly articulated in the video. I would only do that in a single action pistol not a lever.

Yeah, one of the things I learned years ago in CAS is that it is very advantageous to shoot a load that works in BOTH the handguns and the rifle. That makes things a lot easier and less error prone for both loading the ammunition on the progressive press without having to chnage the setup AND making loading errors at the loading station at the matches, and on stages with reloads, impossible. There's enough stuff going on at an actual match to make it unwise to introduce 2 different loads.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Ah, I did not know about VV N32C. VV used to offer Tin Star for CAS, but removed it from their lineup for some undisclosed reason. I'll look into N32C, as I like VV powders a LOT, but again, availability may be an issue. I'll look.

Jim G

Oh, oh. It turns out that N32C is simply the part number name for Tin Star. I haven't seen Tin Star available for a veyr long time. I think VV discontinued it for some reason.

Jim G

 

[AJC1]

Yeah, one of the things I learned years ago in CAS is that it is very advantageous to shoot a load that works in BOTH the handguns and the rifle. That makes things a lot easier and less error prone for both loading the ammunition on the progressive press without having to chnage the setup AND making loading errors at the loading station at the matches, and on stages with reloads, impossible. There's enough stuff going on at an actual match to make it unwise to introduce 2 different loads.

Jim G

I have several loads that work well in both with my cast and junior competes with an unlisted load. 7.0 unique 8.4 Silhouette 8.8 true blue 10.6 blue dot 13.7 #9 and 13.8 2400, pick your poison.

 

[JimGnitecki]

I have several loads that work well in both with my cast and junior competes with an unlisted load. 7.0 unique 8.4 Silhouette 8.8 true blue 10.6 blue dot 13.7 #9 and 13.8 2400, pick your poison.

Unfortunately, all those loads look way too hot for the Hornady swaged 158g bullets on the way to me. Hornady stops their load table for Unique for this bullet at about 5 grains! Unlike some of the other guys on this forum, you evidently don't shoot "mouse fart" loads for CAS! I admire that. If I was to again shoot IPSC or IDPA. I'd want to shoot a "realistic" self-defence load, not a minimum load, just to properly honour the spirit of the game. The CAS community seems to keep the loads pretty light - just enough to reliably knock down the knockdown targets. The spirit of the CAS game tends more towards authentic costuming (even at post-match events), safety, humour in the stage setups and scripts, and willingness to help one's competitiors when they need help (ammo, lend firearms, etc). There is a concerted effort to make CAS a clean and family event. I appreciate that.

Jim G

 

[JohnB-40]

HP-38/Win 231 and Unique are what I would recommend. I use them both along with Trail Boss for milder loads for 158gr lead in a 357 case. Standard primers are used and cases can be reused many times.

 

[AJC1]

Unfortunately, all those loads look way too hot for the Hornady swaged 158g bullets on the way to me. Hornady stops their load table for Unique for this bullet at about 5 grains! Unlike some of the other guys on this forum, you evidently don't shoot "mouse fart" loads for CAS! I admire that. If I was to again shoot IPSC or IDPA. I'd want to shoot a "realistic" self-defence load, not a minimum load, just to properly honour the spirit of the game. The CAS community seems to keep the loads pretty light - just enough to reliably knock down the knockdown targets. The spirit of the CAS game tends more towards authentic costuming (even at post-match events), safety, humour in the stage setups and scripts, and willingness to help one's competitiors when they need help (ammo, lend firearms, etc). There is a concerted effort to make CAS a clean and family event. I appreciate that.

Jim G

My loads are for Silhouette not Cass but enough power to knock over the animals is needed in my sport. In your sport 357 is a hindrance not an advantage. In your game a 32 would increase speed on followup shots and minimize recoil. So many times people give advice based on the discipline they play, so I try to be very clear my sport and its requirements

 

[JimGnitecki]

HP-38/Win 231 and Unique are what I would recommend. I use them both along with Trail Boss for milder loads for 158gr lead in a 357 case.

Thank-you!

Jim G

 

[Charlie98]

Note that this table shows data for TiteGroup that is quite different than what Hodgdon shows for Titegroup with a cast 158g bullet. Hodgon showed a range of 4.5 g to 5.0 g with a velocity range 1028 fps to 1128 fps, out of a 10" barrel.

Here, Hornady shows their 158g swaged SWC with a Titegroup powder range of 2.9 g to 4.1g with a velocity range of 700 fps to 900 fps, out of an 8" Colt python barrel. (The barrel data is not printed on the page I photographed, but is shown at the very start of the 357 Magnum section of the loading manual.)

Hodgdon's data gives you load workups for what their goals were when the created that data... it doesn't appear it to be specifically for lower velocity cast loads, that's why I said it was for cast .357 loads. Just because it says '.357' doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work for you, even if they say... 'oh, yea, and it works for CAS, too.' The book velocities show you that. You are doing the smart thing and looking at multiple sources...

FWIW, that 158grn Hornady swaged bullet, while messy to load, gave me one of the most accurate loads I've ever worked up... 4grn Unique and that bullet gave me 1 hole out of, of all things, a 3" J-frame .38 S&W. Swaged bullets are quite soft, so you are smart, again, for wanting to keep your velocities down.

 

[JimGnitecki]

My loads are for Silhouette not Cass but enough power to knock over the animals is needed in my sport. In your sport 357 is a hindrance not an advantage. In your game a 32 would increase speed on followup shots and minimize recoil. So many times people give advice based on the discipline they play, so I try to be very clear my sport and its requirements

Yes, your loads make sense for Silhouette! In CAS, the closest we get to those kinds of loads is in the side matches, where we shoot long range rifles out to as much as 500 yards, with the targets sometimes being full size silhouettes of buffalo. What makes those side matches really interesting is that you have to use rifles that are "authentic and common" to the time period. So, you see a lot of such things as Pedersoli replicas of falling block "buffalo rifles", in .45-70 and hotter calibers, tang mounted super-tall elevator peep sights OR non-magnifying tubular sights with external-only adjustments, and cross-sticks for supports. It's a lot of fun, especially when you hear the "clang" of the hit after about a full second of flight time!

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Hodgdon's data gives you load workups for what their goals were when the created that data... it doesn't appear it to be specifically for lower velocity cast loads, that's why I said it was for cast .357 loads. Just because it says '.357' doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work for you, even if they say... 'oh, yea, and it works for CAS, too.' The book velocities show you that. You are doing the smart thing and looking at multiple sources...

FWIW, that 158grn Hornady swaged bullet, while messy to load, gave me one of the most accurate loads I've ever worked up... 4grn Unique and that bullet gave me 1 hole out of, of all things, a 3" J-frame .38 S&W. Swaged bullets are quite soft, so you are smart, again, for wanting to keep your velocities down.

Ah, someone who has actually loaded and fired the very bullet I am going to use!! This is great to hear!

What velocity ranges did you find you could run this bullet at without excessive barrel leading?

Did you use regular SP primers or magnum SP primers in that accurate load you built?

Jim G

 

[Charlie98]

Those bullets were bought specifically to load a light .38SPC load for my mom... that was her 3" model 60 I bought for her many years ago. That 4grn Unique load came out of my 4" 686 at 650fps... a very light load, indeed! Hornady probably has a disclaimer for those swaged bullets about high velocity, or the data they generated would keep that bullet within the velocity threshold (as you posted.) Note that Hornady's data with 4grn Unique is far more optimistic than the results I got with my actual revolver... so there is that, too. Looking at that data you posted... it looks like 1000fps is where Hornady stops... and that is a good idea with swaged bullets like that.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Those bullets were bought specifically to load a light .38SPC load for my mom... that was her 3" model 60 I bought for her many years ago. That 4grn Unique load came out of my 4" 686 at 650fps... a very light load, indeed! Hornady probably has a disclaimer for those swaged bullets about high velocity, or the data they generated would keep that bullet within the velocity threshold (as you posted.) Note that Hornady's data with 4grn Unique is far more optimistic than the results I got with my actual revolver... so there is that, too. Looking at that data you posted... it looks like 1000fps is where Hornady stops... and that is a good idea with swaged bullets like that.

THANK-YOU, Charlie98! That is very helpful info! Did you use regular primers or magnum primers?

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Looking at a chart that shows burn rate, VMD, and density for most powders, I ser that Unique has some interesting properties:

- Its density of 9.158 gr/cc is notably low, being lower than Titegroup (11.799), Accurate No.5 (16.051), and very similar to VV N340 (9.381), so it will fill the case better or at least as well as any of the other powders that Hornady tested the bullet with.

- It burn rate on the chart (34th), is faster than VV N340 (41st), but notably slower than Titegroup (10th) and a bit slower than Accurate No. 5 (29th). Slower powders in general are a bit safer, so this is a plus.

So, Unique and VV N340 are both starting to look advantageous to me. IF I can find them in stock . . .

The VV N340 has a bit of an edge over the Unique because it (1) apparenrtly burns cleaner and (2) it needs more powder to attain a given muzzle velocity. The more powder for a given velocity makes its reactions to slight variances in weight less pronounced (proportionately) AND accentuates its "filling of the case" versus Unique.

Hmmm. Might be time to check availability for both VV N340 and Unique.

Jim G

 

[Charlie98]

Did you use regular primers or magnum primers?

I ser that Unique has some interesting properties:

Regular primers. The only pistol powders I use a Magnum primer with is W296 or H110... not even IMR4227 or 2400.

One of the reasons I suggested Unique was because of case fill... but it is a slower powder, so at low- and mid-range charges it won't burn super clean. It won't foul your pistol, but it'll need a good cleaning when you are done... no big deal.

 

[AJC1]

Regular primers. The only pistol powders I use a Magnum primer with is W296 or H110... not even IMR4227 or 2400.

One of the reasons I suggested Unique was because of case fill... but it is a slower powder, so at low- and mid-range charges it won't burn super clean. It won't foul your pistol, but it'll need a good cleaning when you are done... no big deal.

I do recommend then for lil gun and blue dot loads.... I haven't tested Longshot yet but I'm suspicious that might be another.

 

[Charlie98]

I do recommend then for lil gun and blue dot loads.... I haven't tested Longshot yet but I'm suspicious that might be another.

Reason #6,093 to not like BlueDot...