357 Magnum loading for Cowboy Action Shooting - component availability issues

[JimGnitecki]

The search for powder is not going well. I checked every possible Canadian online source that Google could find, and came up with nothing for N340, nothing for Unique, and am now trying to find some Titegroup.

Jim G

 

[AJC1]

The search for powder is not going well. I checked every possible Canadian online source that Google could find, and came up with nothing for N340, nothing for Unique, and am now trying to find some Titegroup.

Jim G

Add universal. It's a single base powder that should keep your gun cool and is in the burn rate you desire.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

The search for powder is not going well. I checked every possible Canadian online source that Google could find, and came up with nothing for N340, nothing for Unique, and am now trying to find some Titegroup.

Jim G

Accurate No.5. Have you checked?

 

[JimGnitecki]

Accurate No.5. Have you checked?

Actually I am examining Accurate No.5 right now. There is a possibility of getting that from one source. On a density basis, it looks initially bad because its density is 1.7 times that of Titegroup. However, that loading table that Hornady provides shows that for an equivalent velocity of 800 fps, you need 6.2g of Accurate No. 5 versus 3.5g of Titegroup.

So, if you use Accurate No.5, that's 6.2 / 3.5 = 1.77 times the WEIGHT of Titegroup powder.

That 1.77 factor means that even though the Accurate No. 5 powder is WAY denser, you need to use so much more of it that it basically fills EXACTLY the same amount of space in the cartridge as the Titegroup.

But since both of those powders sell for about the same price per pound, it would cost me 1.7 times as much for powder if I use Accurate No.5 versus Titegroup. Of course the flip reply to that is "so what?", since the powder cost on the Accurate load would STILL only be about $0.044. The bullet and primer costs make even the $0.044 "higher' powder price pale into insignificance.

You are the first one to recommend it to me for my application. What did you use it for, and how did that work out? How well does it flow from a Dillon powder reservoir on a Dillon progressive? How clean or dirty is it?

Jim G

 

[Charlie98]

So, if you use Accurate No.5, that's 6.2 / 3.5 = 1.77 times the WEIGHT of Titegroup powder.

Generically speaking... faster powders require a smaller charge, by weight, than a mid-range powder, and then again with a slower powder... it's just the way they work.

In the .41, for example, 9grn Unique gives me 1150fps out of my 6" Dan Wesson, but it takes 18grn of W296, for example, to match that velocity in the same pistol. If I was to load a faster powder, like W231 or TiteGroup, it would require less... prolly in the 6-7grn range... to meet that velocity... so, yes, you are paying for the slower powder. Now you understand why match shooters like small charges of fast powders (besides TrailBoss) because it gets the job done at a lower cost than a powder that would emphasize velocity.

There is a place for slower powders... like in rifles. Again, using the .41 (because that's what I load...) my 8grn Unique load gives me only 20% more velocity in my 20" Marlin, but using a slow powder like IMR4227... I get 50% more velocity, all else being equal, so it's worth the price... to me.

As far as AA#5... that may very well be your Huckleberry, and as John mentioned... perhaps Universal.

 

[AJC1]

Actually I am examining Accurate No.5 right now. There is a possibility of getting that from one source. On a density basis, it looks initially bad because its density is 1.7 times that of Titegroup. However, that loading table that Hornady provides shows that for an equivalent velocity of 800 fps, you need 6.2g of Accurate No. 5 versus 3.5g of Titegroup.

So, if you use Accurate No.5, that's 6.2 / 3.5 = 1.77 times the WEIGHT of Titegroup powder.

That 1.77 factor means that even though the Accurate No. 5 powder is WAY denser, you need to use so much more of it that it basically fills EXACTLY the same amount of space in the cartridge as the Titegroup.

But since both of those powders sell for about the same price per pound, it would cost me 1.7 times as much for powder if I use Accurate No.5 versus Titegroup. Of course the flip reply to that is "so what?", since the powder cost on the Accurate load would STILL only be about $0.044. The bullet and primer costs make even the $0.044 "higher' powder price pale into insignificance.

You are the first one to recommend it to me for my application. What did you use it for, and how did that work out? How well does it flow from a Dillon powder reservoir on a Dillon progressive? How clean or dirty is it?

Jim G

3.8 grains is the load for 38. It's wonderfully accurate. The problem with numbers shopping is that it doesn't tell you what works best. Even at 3.8 in a 38 case recoil is absolutely not a factor. I'd happily shoot that load one handed in 50 yard ppc. Absolutely none of my 357 loads meet that requirement.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Actually I am examining Accurate No.5 right now. There is a possibility of getting that from one source. On a density basis, it looks initially bad because its density is 1.7 times that of Titegroup. However, that loading table that Hornady provides shows that for an equivalent velocity of 800 fps, you need 6.2g of Accurate No. 5 versus 3.5g of Titegroup.

So, if you use Accurate No.5, that's 6.2 / 3.5 = 1.77 times the WEIGHT of Titegroup powder.

That 1.77 factor means that even though the Accurate No. 5 powder is WAY denser, you need to use so much more of it that it basically fills EXACTLY the same amount of space in the cartridge as the Titegroup.

But since both of those powders sell for about the same price per pound, it would cost me 1.7 times as much for powder if I use Accurate No.5 versus Titegroup. Of course the flip reply to that is "so what?", since the powder cost on the Accurate load would STILL only be about $0.044. The bullet and primer costs make even the $0.044 "higher' powder price pale into insignificance.

You are the first one to recommend it to me for my application. What did you use it for, and how did that work out? How well does it flow from a Dillon powder reservoir on a Dillon progressive? How clean or dirty is it?

Jim G

It burns clean, pours like water, downloads without getting temperamental, ignites easily with a standard primer in a magnum case, is neither position sensitive nor temperature sensitive, is not a high temperature burning powder so it doesn’t heat up the gun like TiteGroup, and is commonly available in North America. I use it for everything from hunting .32Magnum loads to target .45ACP loads. It’s faster than Unique, slower than Red Dot and is almost as versatile as both. In a Cowboy load I would go with the Hornady “Frontier” 158gr LSWC (FN or HP) and 5.5gr of No.5 for 700fps and call it a day. TiteGroup is not one of my favorites but it has its uses.
I don’t load on a progressive or use a powder reservoir, or meter. I use a single stage press and dippers with a scale. I shoot a lot of .38Spl and 9mm and a good bit of .44Spl with No.5. I have about 20 pistol powders I use for various things and all of the Accurate powders from No.2 through 4100 are included. I have not tried No.11FS but I am considering it for T/C .357Max loads with 200gr WFN-GC.

 

[AJC1]

Because you might not have one I like burn rate charts like this not the numbered charts the ramshot downloads have a simular chart.

 

[Charlie98]

Because you might not have one I like burn rate charts like this not the numbered charts the ramshot downloads have a simular chart.

That's my favorite chart! I just wish they would update it for the new Alliant and Winchester powders, etc...

 

[AJC1]

That's my favorite chart! I just wish they would update it for the new Alliant and Winchester powders, etc...

Probably happen the same time Lyman retest 38 and 357 with pizo guages in psi.

 

[P Flados]

For CASS type shooting, any fast burning powder can be made to work. They are all safe in a 357 mag at the desired velocity (around 800 fps from a handgun). Published load data for this level of performance can be hard to find.

However, there is an alternate choice in this range of performance where pressure margins for the gun are very high.

I ran a Quickload table to get the charge needed to get 800 fps from a 6" barrel. I looked up some old Hodgdon CASS data and found all of the Quickload results are between min and max listed for the applicable Hodgdon powders below.

Based on this, it gives you a tool where you can just look for the "most available" powders from the selection below. For what it is worth, if I found Nitro 100, Red Dot or Clays they would be at the top of my list. To get cleaner burning at the low velocities you want, faster really helps.

Cartridge          : .357 Magnum (SAAMI)                 
Bullet             : .358, 158, LEE 358-158-RF                 
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.600 inch = 40.64 mm                 
Barrel Length      : 6.0 inch = 152.4 mm                 
                  
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time                 
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms                 
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------                 
Hodgdon Clays                       40.4      3.2     0.21     800   100.0    14926    2013   0.885                 
Vihtavuori N310                     33.6      3.2     0.21     800   100.0    13645    2093   0.932                 
Accurate Nitro 100                  37.9      3.3     0.21     800   100.0    11264    2399   0.990                             
Alliant RED DOT                     40.1      3.3     0.21     800   100.0    11852    2304   0.986                    
Accurate Solo 1000                  38.4      3.5     0.23     800   100.0    11660    2317   0.976                 
Alliant GREEN DOT                   38.8      3.6     0.23     800   100.0    11107    2446   1.015                 
Norma R1                            42.8      3.6     0.23     800   100.0    12880    2199   0.964                 
Hodgdon TiteGroup                   27.0      3.6     0.24     800   100.0    11761    2296   0.975                 
Vihtavuori N320                     37.4      3.6     0.24     800   100.0    10833    2425   1.015                            
Alliant BULLSEYE                    33.6      3.7     0.24     800    96.1     9751    2905   1.040                 
Hodgdon HP38                        28.3      3.9     0.25     800   100.0    10636    2548   1.013                 
Ramshot Zip                         28.6      4.0     0.26     800   100.0    10499    2598   1.019                 
Winchester 231                      31.8      4.0     0.26     800   100.0    10499    2598   1.019                 
Accurate Solo 1250                  40.3      4.0     0.26     800    99.7    10240    2665   1.025                 
Vihtavuori N330                     37.4      4.0     0.26     800    99.9     9635    2772   1.060  
Accurate No.2                       38.5      4.2     0.27     800    93.8     9966    2883   1.032  
Vihtavuori N340                     39.7      4.4     0.28     800    96.0     9710    2915   1.054                 
Vihtavuori N32C Tin Star            55.3      4.6     0.30     800   100.0    12450    2202   0.979                 
IMR TrailBoss                       83.3      4.6     0.30     800   100.0    11850    2273   0.989                 
Winchester WAP                      32.9      4.7     0.31     800    92.6     9544    3004   1.055                 
Ramshot Silhouette                  32.8      4.7     0.31     800    93.0     9542    3001   1.056

 

[AJC1]

For CASS type shooting, any fast burning powder can be made to work. They are all safe in a 357 mag at the desired velocity (around 800 fps from a handgun). Published load data can be harder to find. However, there is an alternate choice in this range of performance where pressure margins for the gun are very high.

I ran a Quickload table to get the charge needed to get 800 fps from a 6" barrel. I looked up some old Hodgdon CASS data and found all of the Quickload results are between min and max listed for the applicable Hodgdon powders below.

Based on this, it gives you a tool where you can just look for the "most available" powders from the selection below.

Cartridge          : .357 Magnum (SAAMI)                      
Bullet             : .358, 158, LEE 358-158-RF                      
Useable Case Capaci: 17.949 grain H2O = 1.165 cm³                      
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.600 inch = 40.64 mm                      
Barrel Length      : 6.0 inch = 152.4 mm                      
                       
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time                      
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms                      
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------                      
Hodgdon Clays                       40.4      3.2     0.21     800   100.0    14926    2013   0.885                      
Vihtavuori N310                     33.6      3.2     0.21     800   100.0    13645    2093   0.932                      
Accurate Nitro 100                  37.9      3.3     0.21     800   100.0    11264    2399   0.990                      
Lovex D013                          37.9      3.3     0.21     800   100.0    11264    2399   0.990                      
Alliant RED DOT                     40.1      3.3     0.21     800   100.0    11852    2304   0.986                      
Maxam CSB 5                         37.5      3.4     0.22     800   100.0    12699    2168   0.947                      
Lovex S015                          38.4      3.5     0.23     800   100.0    11660    2317   0.976                      
Accurate Solo 1000                  38.4      3.5     0.23     800   100.0    11660    2317   0.976                      
Alliant GREEN DOT                   38.8      3.6     0.23     800   100.0    11107    2446   1.015                      
Maxam CSB 4                         38.1      3.6     0.23     800   100.0    11316    2351   0.986                      
Norma R1                            42.8      3.6     0.23     800   100.0    12880    2199   0.964                      
Hodgdon TiteGroup                   27.0      3.6     0.24     800   100.0    11761    2296   0.975                      
Vihtavuori N320                     37.4      3.6     0.24     800   100.0    10833    2425   1.015                      
Maxam CSB 3                         39.1      3.7     0.24     800   100.0    10824    2462   1.005                      
Alliant BULLSEYE                    33.6      3.7     0.24     800    96.1     9751    2905   1.040                      
Lovex S011                          33.1      3.7     0.24     800   100.0    10917    2482   0.991                      
Lovex D032                          26.9      3.7     0.24     800    99.5    10566    2626   1.007                      
Hodgdon HP38                        28.3      3.9     0.25     800   100.0    10636    2548   1.013                      
Ramshot Zip                         28.6      4.0     0.26     800   100.0    10499    2598   1.019                      
Winchester 231                      31.8      4.0     0.26     800   100.0    10499    2598   1.019                      
Accurate Solo 1250                  40.3      4.0     0.26     800    99.7    10240    2665   1.025                      
Vihtavuori N330                     37.4      4.0     0.26     800    99.9     9635    2772   1.060                      
Maxam CSB 1                         42.2      4.1     0.27     800    99.8    10356    2634   1.025                      
Accurate No.2                       38.5      4.2     0.27     800    93.8     9966    2883   1.032                      
Lovex S030                          36.5      4.2     0.27     800    96.8    10086    2805   1.030                      
Vihtavuori N340                     39.7      4.4     0.28     800    96.0     9710    2915   1.054                      
Vihtavuori N32C Tin Star            55.3      4.6     0.30     800   100.0    12450    2202   0.979                      
IMR TrailBoss                       83.3      4.6     0.30     800   100.0    11850    2273   0.989                      
Winchester WAP                      32.9      4.7     0.31     800    92.6     9544    3004   1.055                      
Ramshot Silhouette                  32.8      4.7     0.31     800    93.0     9542    3001   1.056

That's a sweet chart. In my search for single base powders solo poped up but is discontinued

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Because you might not have one I like burn rate charts like this not the numbered charts the ramshot downloads have a simular chart. View attachment 1136383

Western is a little different but not too far off.

The charts are just a guidepost anyway. If you want to know where a powder is in relation to others, buy a pound and shoot it.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Actually I am examining Accurate No.5 right now. There is a possibility of getting that from one source. On a density basis, it looks initially bad because its density is 1.7 times that of Titegroup. However, that loading table that Hornady provides shows that for an equivalent velocity of 800 fps, you need 6.2g of Accurate No. 5 versus 3.5g of Titegroup.

So, if you use Accurate No.5, that's 6.2 / 3.5 = 1.77 times the WEIGHT of Titegroup powder.

That 1.77 factor means that even though the Accurate No. 5 powder is WAY denser, you need to use so much more of it that it basically fills EXACTLY the same amount of space in the cartridge as the Titegroup.

But since both of those powders sell for about the same price per pound, it would cost me 1.7 times as much for powder if I use Accurate No.5 versus Titegroup. Of course the flip reply to that is "so what?", since the powder cost on the Accurate load would STILL only be about $0.044. The bullet and primer costs make even the $0.044 "higher' powder price pale into insignificance.

You are the first one to recommend it to me for my application. What did you use it for, and how did that work out? How well does it flow from a Dillon powder reservoir on a Dillon progressive? How clean or dirty is it?

Jim G

Hmmm … well, there’s some contradictory requirements here:
I read this part-

What powder should I go with if my priorities are:
- Actual reliable availability
- Filling as much of the case volume below the bullet as possible

And figured you wanted a powder with good case fill - which obviously puts the whole price-per-grain requirement in question. Then was this:

- Small versus large unfavourable consequences if the powder charge varies a bit

And that suggests a powder in the midrange, not one of the lower density, faster burning powders.
I guess at some point those priorities changed and I missed that post.

 

[AJC1]

Western is a little different but not too far off.
View attachment 1136391
The charts are just a guidepost anyway. If you want to know where a powder is in relation to others, buy a pound and shoot it.

You know factually that's how I get down... only a few more mag powders to go...

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

You know factually that's how I get down... only a few more mag powders to go...

I spent 12 hours today and 10 yesterday working from home trying to get a couple of projects wrapped up because tomorrow starts a new set of projects and I’m not ready. Otherwise I would have been out in this beautiful weather shooting something. If only I had been born rich instead of incredibly good looking.

 

[dcarr]

For CASS type shooting, any fast burning powder can be made to work. They are all safe in a 357 mag at the desired velocity (around 800 fps from a handgun). Published load data for this level of performance can be hard to find.

However, there is an alternate choice in this range of performance where pressure margins for the gun are very high.

I ran a Quickload table to get the charge needed to get 800 fps from a 6" barrel. I looked up some old Hodgdon CASS data and found all of the Quickload results are between min and max listed for the applicable Hodgdon powders below.

Based on this, it gives you a tool where you can just look for the "most available" powders from the selection below. For what it is worth, if I found Nitro 100, Red Dot or Clays they would be at the top of my list. To get cleaner burning at the low velocities you want, faster really helps.

Cartridge          : .357 Magnum (SAAMI)                
Bullet             : .358, 158, LEE 358-158-RF                
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.600 inch = 40.64 mm                
Barrel Length      : 6.0 inch = 152.4 mm                
                 
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time                
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms                
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------                
Hodgdon Clays                       40.4      3.2     0.21     800   100.0    14926    2013   0.885                
Vihtavuori N310                     33.6      3.2     0.21     800   100.0    13645    2093   0.932                
Accurate Nitro 100                  37.9      3.3     0.21     800   100.0    11264    2399   0.990                            
Alliant RED DOT                     40.1      3.3     0.21     800   100.0    11852    2304   0.986                   
Accurate Solo 1000                  38.4      3.5     0.23     800   100.0    11660    2317   0.976                
Alliant GREEN DOT                   38.8      3.6     0.23     800   100.0    11107    2446   1.015                
Norma R1                            42.8      3.6     0.23     800   100.0    12880    2199   0.964                
Hodgdon TiteGroup                   27.0      3.6     0.24     800   100.0    11761    2296   0.975                
Vihtavuori N320                     37.4      3.6     0.24     800   100.0    10833    2425   1.015                           
Alliant BULLSEYE                    33.6      3.7     0.24     800    96.1     9751    2905   1.040                
Hodgdon HP38                        28.3      3.9     0.25     800   100.0    10636    2548   1.013                
Ramshot Zip                         28.6      4.0     0.26     800   100.0    10499    2598   1.019                
Winchester 231                      31.8      4.0     0.26     800   100.0    10499    2598   1.019                
Accurate Solo 1250                  40.3      4.0     0.26     800    99.7    10240    2665   1.025                
Vihtavuori N330                     37.4      4.0     0.26     800    99.9     9635    2772   1.060 
Accurate No.2                       38.5      4.2     0.27     800    93.8     9966    2883   1.032 
Vihtavuori N340                     39.7      4.4     0.28     800    96.0     9710    2915   1.054                
Vihtavuori N32C Tin Star            55.3      4.6     0.30     800   100.0    12450    2202   0.979                
IMR TrailBoss                       83.3      4.6     0.30     800   100.0    11850    2273   0.989                
Winchester WAP                      32.9      4.7     0.31     800    92.6     9544    3004   1.055                
Ramshot Silhouette                  32.8      4.7     0.31     800    93.0     9542    3001   1.056

I reload 158gr swc for my blackhawk in .357 with 5 of these powders, just plinking but amusing to see the charges match close to what you list above.

 

[AJC1]

Western is a little different but not too far off.
View attachment 1136391
The charts are just a guidepost anyway. If you want to know where a powder is in relation to others, buy a pound and shoot it.

Based on real world testing true blue and Silhouette are just way off. True Blue belongs near hs6. Silhouette and green dot being the same is a total joke.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Based on real world testing true blue and Silhouette are just way off. True Blue belongs near hs6. Silhouette and green dot being the same is a total joke.

True. But on the other chart, for some reason 4100 and Enforcer - the same powder - are separated by a wide gap? Burn charts may as well be craps tables - roll the dice and see what you get.

 

[lordpaxman]

There are 7000 grains in a pound. With loads you’re talking about, the cost of powder is less the than primer these days. I load for competition and we don’t really consider the cost of faster powders, it’s the recoil advantage of loading less powder for the required minimum velocity we need. The fact they burn cleaner at lighter charges is a bonus.
The first time I opened a jug of AA2 I thought, is this black sand? AA5 is similar. It’s really fine, meters really well in a LNL, I’ve not tried it in a Dillon but suspect it’ll work. There are reports of it leaking around the powder bar.
I wouldn’t try to analyze the fill volume, especially if you still are considering TG - don’t get me wrong, TG is perfect for this application, you just need to have acceptable loading practices and you’ll be fine.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

There are 7000 grains in a pound. With loads you’re talking about, the cost of powder is less the than primer these days. I load for competition and we don’t really consider the cost of faster powders, it’s the recoil advantage of loading less powder for the required minimum velocity we need. The fact they burn cleaner at lighter charges is a bonus.
The first time I opened a jug of AA2 I thought, is this black sand? AA5 is similar. It’s really fine, meters really well in a LNL, I’ve not tried it in a Dillon but suspect it’ll work. There are reports of it leaking around the powder bar.
I wouldn’t try to analyze the fill volume, especially if you still are considering TG - don’t get me wrong, TG is perfect for this application, you just need to have acceptable loading practices and you’ll be fine.

Well now that is a good thing to consider. I was suggesting No.5 based on the use of a .357Mag case. But with a .38Spl - or even better, .38LC case - No.2 would probably be a better choice. The shorter case does eject faster but my light No.5 .357Mag loads already pretty much fall out so it might not matter.

 

[lordpaxman]

That list @P Flados posted from Quickload - very cool, lots of choices if the OP can find one of them.
The only thing would be to see what a .38 special list looks like!

 

[.45Coltguy]

3.8 grains is the load for 38. It's wonderfully accurate. The problem with numbers shopping is that it doesn't tell you what works best. Even at 3.8 in a 38 case recoil is absolutely not a factor. I'd happily shoot that load one handed in 50 yard ppc. Absolutely none of my 357 loads meet that requirement.

Is that 3.8gr load for Titegroup? Seems way too light for #5. Thanks.

 

[AJC1]

Is that 3.8gr load for Titegroup? Seems way too light for #5. Thanks.

Yes TG. In a 38 case it's right off the bottle and very nice. If the op is going to have to do backflips for powder getting 38 cases should probably be added to the search. It will help address one of his primary case fill problems. 3.4 grains of reddot/promo under a cast 38 would also be perfect for the discipline he chases. My focus for the first year of reloading was building light loads for junior, and there are tons of loads around that best fit the need in 38 vs 357. If it were me, I'd trim 50 down to 38s just to test. In all honesty I might even consider shorts but if they have to also function in a lever that's a no go. It's a can I make this work senerio vs what is the best answer.

 

[.45Coltguy]

Thanks for the reply AJC1. And yes, Red Dot would do nicely.