357 Magnum loading for Cowboy Action Shooting - component availability issues

GeoDudeFlorida said:
It burns clean, pours like water, downloads without getting temperamental, ignites easily with a standard primer in a magnum case, is neither position sensitive nor temperature sensitive, is not a high temperature burning powder so it doesn’t heat up the gun like TiteGroup, and is commonly available in North America. I use it for everything from hunting .32Magnum loads to target .45ACP loads. It’s faster than Unique, slower than Red Dot and is almost as versatile as both. In a Cowboy load I would go with the Hornady “Frontier” 158gr LSWC (FN or HP) and 5.5gr of No.5 for 700fps and call it a day. TiteGroup is not one of my favorites but it has its uses.
I don’t load on a progressive or use a powder reservoir, or meter. I use a single stage press and dippers with a scale. I shoot a lot of .38Spl and 9mm and a good bit of .44Spl with No.5. I have about 20 pistol powders I use for various things and all of the Accurate powders from No.2 through 4100 are included. I have not tried No.11FS but I am considering it for T/C .357Max loads with 200gr WFN-GC.
Click to expand...

That's a pretty good recommendation for Acurate No.5, coupled with AJC1's. Good possibility, assuming it is actually available to me!

Jim G
 
P Flados said:
For CASS type shooting, any fast burning powder can be made to work. They are all safe in a 357 mag at the desired velocity (around 800 fps from a handgun). Published load data for this level of performance can be hard to find.

However, there is an alternate choice in this range of performance where pressure margins for the gun are very high.

I ran a Quickload table to get the charge needed to get 800 fps from a 6" barrel. I looked up some old Hodgdon CASS data and found all of the Quickload results are between min and max listed for the applicable Hodgdon powders below.

Based on this, it gives you a tool where you can just look for the "most available" powders from the selection below. For what it is worth, if I found Nitro 100, Red Dot or Clays they would be at the top of my list. To get cleaner burning at the low velocities you want, faster really helps.

Code: 
Cartridge          : .357 Magnum (SAAMI)                
Bullet             : .358, 158, LEE 358-158-RF                
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.600 inch = 40.64 mm                
Barrel Length      : 6.0 inch = 152.4 mm                
                 
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time                
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms                
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------                
Hodgdon Clays                       40.4      3.2     0.21     800   100.0    14926    2013   0.885                
Vihtavuori N310                     33.6      3.2     0.21     800   100.0    13645    2093   0.932                
Accurate Nitro 100                  37.9      3.3     0.21     800   100.0    11264    2399   0.990                            
Alliant RED DOT                     40.1      3.3     0.21     800   100.0    11852    2304   0.986                   
Accurate Solo 1000                  38.4      3.5     0.23     800   100.0    11660    2317   0.976                
Alliant GREEN DOT                   38.8      3.6     0.23     800   100.0    11107    2446   1.015                
Norma R1                            42.8      3.6     0.23     800   100.0    12880    2199   0.964                
Hodgdon TiteGroup                   27.0      3.6     0.24     800   100.0    11761    2296   0.975                
Vihtavuori N320                     37.4      3.6     0.24     800   100.0    10833    2425   1.015                           
Alliant BULLSEYE                    33.6      3.7     0.24     800    96.1     9751    2905   1.040                
Hodgdon HP38                        28.3      3.9     0.25     800   100.0    10636    2548   1.013                
Ramshot Zip                         28.6      4.0     0.26     800   100.0    10499    2598   1.019                
Winchester 231                      31.8      4.0     0.26     800   100.0    10499    2598   1.019                
Accurate Solo 1250                  40.3      4.0     0.26     800    99.7    10240    2665   1.025                
Vihtavuori N330                     37.4      4.0     0.26     800    99.9     9635    2772   1.060 
Accurate No.2                       38.5      4.2     0.27     800    93.8     9966    2883   1.032 
Vihtavuori N340                     39.7      4.4     0.28     800    96.0     9710    2915   1.054                
Vihtavuori N32C Tin Star            55.3      4.6     0.30     800   100.0    12450    2202   0.979                
IMR TrailBoss                       83.3      4.6     0.30     800   100.0    11850    2273   0.989                
Winchester WAP                      32.9      4.7     0.31     800    92.6     9544    3004   1.055                
Ramshot Silhouette                  32.8      4.7     0.31     800    93.0     9542    3001   1.056
Click to expand...

This looks pretty helpful. Thank-you! I have saved it to my CAS Reloading folder!

Jim G
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
Hmmm … well, there’s some contradictory requirements here:
I read this part-

And figured you wanted a powder with good case fill - which obviously puts the whole price-per-grain requirement in question. Then was this:

And that suggests a powder in the midrange, not one of the lower density, faster burning powders.
I guess at some point those priorities changed and I missed that post.
Click to expand...

Actually, I realize that some of the "desires" are contradictory. But, I list them all, and then hopefully see which powders meet the best (or least worst) combination of them. I suspect every powder will ahve SOME disadvantages along with its advantages. For example, a couple of people have said Titegroup runs hot. But, other things about it are good, including the fact that Hornady included it in its testing of the specific bullet I have bought, and the fact that it MAY be available to me from a nearby source (I'll find out Tuesday).

Jim G
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
I spent 12 hours today and 10 yesterday working from home trying to get a couple of projects wrapped up because tomorrow starts a new set of projects and I’m not ready. Otherwise I would have been out in this beautiful weather shooting something. If only I had been born rich instead of incredibly good looking. :rofl:
Click to expand...

Hey, I am NEITHER rich OR good looking, but yesterday afternoon the local weather surprised me with a +5C = +42F temperature in the afternoon, with a wind that gusted only occasionally past 25 mph, so I bundled up (2 layers of pants and FOUR layers of upper garments, plus a mink Russian style hat!) and drove 45 minutes to the range over roads tat were mostly wet but also still snowy in places. Fortunately my Ford Maverick pickup is all-wheel drive, AND I have studded tires all around, because the snow at the UNplowed range was 8 inches deep!

I managed to drive to the CAS section of the range, to Sinful Sue's Saloon, set up my Labradar and targets, and fired about 90 rounds of my 4.1gTrail Boss load, despite a wind that required me to use one of my truck's winter sandbags to hold the target stand upright! The wind kept trying to blow the rubber gun mat and open ammo box off the table, and the slight shaking and rearward tilting of the target stand added to the festivities, but I persisted.

I got some good data on bullet fps (770 fps average). But I also learned that despite my best efforts to analyze and optimize grip AND the awful sight picture with a thin and rounded blade front sight and mere non-adjustable shallow groove in the top strap for a rear sight, both of the Cimarron revolvers persisted in firing left of POA, and strung vertically because I had to hold the front sight notably above the rear groove to keep the elevation reasonably close to POA, and it was hard to be consistent enough.

But I could see that the Trail Boss load was REALLY good (too bad I can't get any more), because the best groups were in the 1./5" to 2" size at 25 yards, which is close to the longest range at this local CAS facility (I did not measure to the base of the berm with my measuring tape, but I would guess it was no more than 35 to 40 yards). So, the accuracy is more than sufficient, if I can somehow get those crappy "authentic" sights to work a bit better for me.

My wife thinks it's amazing the things I will do to "have fun".

Jim G
 
A different bullet and/or powder might change your POI. I'm always amazed when a simple change can affect impact like that... but it does.

Truthfully, although you like your TB loads, it's very likely another powder will deliver the same.... or better... results. Or worse. You never know... and such is the mystery of handloading. :)

Another aspect to look at... and this is based on my experience with Ruger SA revolvers...

Have a gunsmith check the cylinder throats for size and consistency, and check the barrel for a constriction at the forcing cone/barrel threads. Rugers in particular are notorious for mismatched and undersized cylinder throats, as well as the dreaded 'torque bulge' in the barrel just forward of the frame. I don't know how good Cimarrons are... but if you are throwing bullets around, that's one place to look.
 
Charlie98 said:
Just FYI... about TiteGroup (or any other high nitro powder...) Don't leave it in your plastic/acrylic powder hopper overnight... it will etch the plastic.
Click to expand...

Really? That's a negative for me, as I don't want to really refill and then empty the powder hopper every time I do a loading session. I have my Dillon 750 mounted on a higher raised mount than the Dillon raised mount, AND once set once for precisely the delivery I want, I don't like to disturb the setup at all. That's not enough of a negative to eliminate Titegroup when my choices are limited, but it is another negative to consider if there turn out to be other available powders.

Jim G
 
Charlie98 said:
A different bullet and/or powder might change your POI. I'm always amazed when a simple change can affect impact like that... but it does.

Truthfully, although you like your TB loads, it's very likely another powder will deliver the same.... or better... results. Or worse. You never know... and such is the mystery of handloading. :)

Another aspect to look at... and this is based on my experience with Ruger SA revolvers...

Have a gunsmith check the cylinder throats for size and consistency, and check the barrel for a constriction at the forcing cone/barrel threads. Rugers in particular are notorious for mismatched and undersized cylinder throats, as well as the dreaded 'torque bulge' in the barrel just forward of the frame. I don't know how good Cimarrons are... but if you are throwing bullets around, that's one place to look.
Click to expand...

Yes, I am trying to make SURE I know which symptoms are due to the firearm and which ones are ME, before I even consider getting a gunsmith to look at the revolvers. Right now, I am suspecting it's more ME versus the revolvers. Gunsmith costs are high enough, and their leadtimes long enough, that I will try to optimize ME and the POWDER before I seriously think about any gunsmith checks or modifications. I have only 2 range sessions with a total of 158 rounds fired between them so far (i.e. only 79 rounds from each of the revolvers). That's pretty early in the process.

Jim G
 
JimGnitecki said:
Hey, I am NEITHER rich OR good looking, but yesterday afternoon the local weather surprised me with a +5C = +42F temperature in the afternoon, with a wind that gusted only occasionally past 25 mph, so I bundled up (2 layers of pants and FOUR layers of upper garments, plus a mink Russian style hat!) and drove 45 minutes to the range over roads tat were mostly wet but also still snowy in places. Fortunately my Ford Maverick pickup is all-wheel drive, AND I have studded tires all around, because the snow at the UNplowed range was 8 inches deep!

I managed to drive to the CAS section of the range, to Sinful Sue's Saloon, set up my Labradar and targets, and fired about 90 rounds of my 4.1gTrail Boss load, despite a wind that required me to use one of my truck's winter sandbags to hold the target stand upright! The wind kept trying to blow the rubber gun mat and open ammo box off the table, and the slight shaking and rearward tilting of the target stand added to the festivities, but I persisted.

I got some good data on bullet fps (770 fps average). But I also learned that despite my best efforts to analyze and optimize grip AND the awful sight picture with a thin and rounded blade front sight and mere non-adjustable shallow groove in the top strap for a rear sight, both of the Cimarron revolvers persisted in firing left of POA, and strung vertically because I had to hold the front sight notably above the rear groove to keep the elevation reasonably close to POA, and it was hard to be consistent enough.

But I could see that the Trail Boss load was REALLY good (too bad I can't get any more), because the best groups were in the 1./5" to 2" size at 25 yards, which is close to the longest range at this local CAS facility (I did not measure to the base of the berm with my measuring tape, but I would guess it was no more than 35 to 40 yards). So, the accuracy is more than sufficient, if I can somehow get those crappy "authentic" sights to work a bit better for me.

My wife thinks it's amazing the things I will do to "have fun".

Jim G
Click to expand...
lol. Yea, if my wife needs to find me in a store she asks if anybody has seen a fat bald guy with a beard. Works every time. ;)
Are you fer sure going to use these in a lever gun, too? If so that 5.5gr 158gr swaged lead load I recommend might be a little light. 5.9 or 6.0gr might be a little more realistic. But you can still work that out without burning too much powder.
 
JimG, with it being windy and cold, those certainly are two negatives for accuracy, especially with a handgun. I have two Italian replics SA, both in .45 Colt. One, the 1873 Pietta, would shoot left and a bit low. I filed a VERY small amount off the front sight and played with trigger pull till I got way better groups. Anywhere from 10 to 20 yards on average. But, you're still getting used to those two Cimarron's and load development.
 
.45Coltguy said:
JimG, with it being windy and cold, those certainly are two negatives for accuracy, especially with a handgun. I have two Italian replics SA, both in .45 Colt. One, the 1873 Pietta, would shoot left and a bit low. I filed a VERY small amount off the front sight and played with trigger pull till I got way better groups. Anywhere from 10 to 20 yards on average. But, you're still getting used to those two Cimarron's and load development.
Click to expand...

Your comments are very interesting, as you too found that one of your revolvers shot left and low. You filed the front sight, which is the correct fix for the elevation on these replica revolvers. I will do that once I KNOW I have the right longterm load. Til then, I am holding the front sight higher. This is not a great solution, because the sights are so small and so bad, but it will have to do for the time being.

But you somehow solved the ELEVATION issue via trigger control or grip, without altering anyhting on the firearm?

I have read about how the geometry of the Colt Peacemaker causes a lot of first time Peacemaker shooters to shoot left because the shorter than normal distance from the back of the grip to the face of the trigger encourages an unconcious leftward pressure on the trigger while aiming by getting the first joint on the trigger finger onto the trigger. I therefor conciously tried to make sure that only the first segment of my finger was touching the trigger during this 2nd range session. But, all the targets showed the same leftward groupings as before. So, I am wondering how you solved the problem without altering the firearm.

Jim G
 
JimGnitecki said:
Your comments are very interesting, as you too found that one of your revolvers shot left and low. You filed the front sight, which is the correct fix for the elevation on these replica revolvers. I will do that once I KNOW I have the right longterm load. Til then, I am holding the front sight higher. This is not a great solution, because the sights are so small and so bad, but it will have to do for the time being.

But you somehow solved the ELEVATION issue via trigger control or grip, without altering anyhting on the firearm?

I have read about how the geometry of the Colt Peacemaker causes a lot of first time Peacemaker shooters to shoot left because the shorter than normal distance from the back of the grip to the face of the trigger encourages an unconcious leftward pressure on the trigger while aiming by getting the first joint on the trigger finger onto the trigger. I therefor conciously tried to make sure that only the first segment of my finger was touching the trigger during this 2nd range session. But, all the targets showed the same leftward groupings as before. So, I am wondering how you solved the problem without altering the firearm.

Jim G
Click to expand...

Correct, the slight filing of the front sight fixed the elevation issue. The windage issue was in my trigger pull, or, rather where I placed my finger on the trigger, which is between the tip and the first crease in my finger. This helped ME a lot. One thing also on both my .45 Colt's; both triggers are "offset" to the left slightly. One is a Pietta 1873 "Gun Fighter" model, the other is a Uberti/Taylors "Old Randall" with tuned trigger from Taylors. That one shoots like a damn dream. Having looked at other Pietta's and Uberti's, the offset triggers is common to those.
What I described certainly helped my shooting of the Pietta. Hope that helps.
 
.45Coltguy said:
Correct, the slight filing of the front sight fixed the elevation issue. The windage issue was in my trigger pull, or, rather where I placed my finger on the trigger, which is between the tip and the first crease in my finger. This helped ME a lot. One thing also on both my .45 Colt's; both triggers are "offset" to the left slightly. One is a Pietta 1873 "Gun Fighter" model, the other is a Uberti/Taylors "Old Randall" with tuned trigger from Taylors. That one shoots like a damn dream. Having looked at other Pietta's and Uberti's, the offset triggers is common to those.
What I described certainly helped my shooting of the Pietta. Hope that helps.
Click to expand...

Yes, that helps! I'll focus on that trigger pull, and on chnages in my grip that seem to affect it.

Jim G
 
.45Coltguy said:
Correct, the slight filing of the front sight fixed the elevation issue. The windage issue was in my trigger pull, or, rather where I placed my finger on the trigger, which is between the tip and the first crease in my finger. This helped ME a lot. One thing also on both my .45 Colt's; both triggers are "offset" to the left slightly. One is a Pietta 1873 "Gun Fighter" model, the other is a Uberti/Taylors "Old Randall" with tuned trigger from Taylors. That one shoots like a damn dream. Having looked at other Pietta's and Uberti's, the offset triggers is common to those.
What I described certainly helped my shooting of the Pietta. Hope that helps.
Click to expand...
That’s pretty common (the left side trigger) but sometimes it is the loading.
Top is an Uberti Taylor.38Spl small frame and bottom is a Pietta .357 standard frame.
index.php

The Taylor shoots best with Long Colt loads. 145gr DEWC at 700fps is just a laser beam. Even I can hit something with it! Go up over 150gr or past 850fps and it slings them everywhere. The Pietta is the opposite. With “Cowboy” loads it shoots left and low - typically Pietta - but with a 142gr FMJ-TC over enough AA4100 to get 1350fps or thereabouts, it’s a laser beam. Just depends on the gun and what it likes.
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
That’s pretty common (the left side trigger) but sometimes it is the loading.
Top is an Uberti Taylor.38Spl small frame and bottom is a Pietta .357 standard frame.
index.php

The Taylor shoots best with Long Colt loads. 145gr DEWC at 700fps is just a laser beam. Even I can hit something with it! Go up over 150gr or past 850fps and it slings them everywhere. The Pietta is the opposite. With “Cowboy” loads it shoots left and low - typically Pietta - but with a 142gr FMJ-TC over enough AA4100 to get 1350fps or thereabouts, it’s a laser beam. Just depends on the gun and what it likes.
Click to expand...

THAT is VERY interesting! Now that I have been told this, I will make sure that regardless of which powder i end up with, I will try it at multiple loads/velocities. A formal "ladder test" seems like a wise thing to do if this is the way these replicas behave - depsite the fact that "this is just for CAS" where the performance standards are lower than for Bullseye or IPSC or F-Class.

Jim G
 
JimGnitecki said:
THAT is VERY interesting! Now that I have been told this, I will make sure that regardless of which powder i end up with, I will try it at multiple loads/velocities. A formal "ladder test" seems like a wise thing to do if this is the way these replicas behave - depsite the fact that "this is just for CAS" where the performance standards are lower than for Bullseye or IPSC or F-Class.

Jim G
Click to expand...
Welcome to my world of testing. :)
 
JimGnitecki said:
THAT is VERY interesting! Now that I have been told this, I will make sure that regardless of which powder i end up with, I will try it at multiple loads/velocities. A formal "ladder test" seems like a wise thing to do if this is the way these replicas behave - depsite the fact that "this is just for CAS" where the performance standards are lower than for Bullseye or IPSC or F-Class.

Jim G
Click to expand...
I should mention, both guns have been worked on. The Taylor’s got very little done - one chamber had a slightly tighter throat - but the Pietta is a Great Western II and it got a new Ruger ejection rod because the oem was sticking and off center. Not by much and most people wouldn’t notice or care but I prefer the straight Ruger style anyway. The chambers are regulated. I don’t recall if any were off or by how much.
 
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