357 or 1911.....

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83864rick

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Let me start by saying I don’t know much about guns, that will be obvious so please bear with me. I can’t afford any other guns.
Living in N Idaho the past 5 years I think I’m the only person here who doesn’t hunt, but I do enjoy hiking and have about 500 acres in which to do it. About the only shots I take are with a nice Cannon, but I do carry a 1979 S&W .357, K frame IIRC, model 19.
I usually dance around a tree for a bull moose, and the black bear usually run after they see me, UNTIL recently. I have a nice size black bear that apparently thinks I am not a threat any longer.
I have figured out on this forum my 125 gr hollow points are pretty much worthless against both the moose and bear. Sure glad I had that false sense of security the past 5 years. Would the buffalo bore 180 be sufficient for moose and black bear.
My other weapon is a 2005 S&W 1911. Yeah I guess the 230 gr hollow points aren’t’ going to be any better either. I do have some Federal 230 that are not hollow, but not sure if they would do it either. Is there any type ammo the 45 would shoot to take down the moose or bear if I ever had to. What about Grizzly as they have been reported in surrounding areas within 15 miles.
Both guns are only fired once a year or so for target practice, which would be maybe 25 rounds in each annually.
The revolver is my favorite, but I can sure fire the pistol much faster with the 9 shots to boot.
Just to double post here…. Yes my ammo is as old as my guns. Is it still safe to shoot or maybe move on with fresh stuff? It has always been stored inside a 60-80F house.
Thanks very much for any advice
Rick
 
I have an S&W 686 in .357 and a Colt 1911 in .45 ACP, so I'm pretty familiar with both rounds and for the most part the pistols. I prefer the 1911 by a wide margin, but if I were your situation, I'd stick with the revolver and the .357.

I'd also get some bear spray or pepper spray, bells, a whistle, or whatever the Fish & Wildlife agents recommend.
 
The Buffalo Bore ammo you mention is about as good as it gets. I'd only use it as needed and stick to "standard velocity" Magnum ammo for everything else.
 
Against a moose? Not a chance. Not if you're in real trouble. It might die later, much later. But it'll be of little comfort to you. Neither are great for big, aggressive animals.

Cheapest way into some good protection is a single shot H&R or NEF 12 gauge. $125.00 tops, and some slugs.

If you want to use that 1911 . . . depending on exactly what it is . . . you could get a 460 Rowland drop-in barrel conversion. That will give you .44 magnum performance out of it.

http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/rowland


Sorry, I know its not what you want to hear. But neither of those handguns offer good, reliable protection against such large animals.
 
There is still WWII ammo out there that is still good to shoot. Powder doesn't usually spoil, lead pretty much can't and primers degrade VERY slowly. Brass is obvious when it is corroded (but if it has been exposed to ammonia or ammonia fumes, watch out, it weakens the brass).

.357 is a little light for large animals, especially if they are excited. Buffalo Bore is a good choice, though. Heavy bullets with a wide meplat (blunt, flat nose) and strong construction. Penetration is key. To anchor an animal, you need to break bone. Hollowpoints just shred flesh.

Grizzly bears are a bear of another color.

My advice would be to keep the .357 and add bear spray. A 10 oz can of high concentration Oleoresion Capsicum or the newer UDAP accompanies me in the woods on my left hip. On my right is a 454 Casull. But if only one, it is the spray. Around my neck of the woods, if you are not stuck with a handgun, 12 gauge stoked with Brenneke slugs or 45-70 levergun (Marlins are insanely popular).

Read what one of your neighbors, a Montanan (Windwalker), has to say about his three experiences with Grizzlies.

Windwalker has two posts on page 5 of this thread. Both are excellent. One recommends 12 gauge. In my neck of the woods, Brenneke slugs are considered adequate. Normal slugs are too soft. The other posts are first-person accounts of his encounters with bears.

rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=51538&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

Especially read post 15 of this thread
forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php?t=54852

The State of Alaska revamped its web site and I can no longer find where I clipped this quote, but it was from there, citing a study by Smith, Herrero and DeBruyn published in the Wildlife Management Journal.

Originally Posted by State of Alaska web site
In the study for the Wildlife Management Journal, scientists examined 83 bear-spray incidents from 1985 to 2006 involving 61 grizzly bears, 20 black bears and two polar bears.

"Ninety-eight percent were uninjured by bears in close-range encounters," they concluded. The few that were injured suffered minor wounds.

Clearly, Smith said, the stuff works.
Click to expand...
Now a professor of wildlife science at Brigham Young University, Smith spent years working in Alaska as a bear biologist for the U.S. Geological Survey and still owns a cabin on the Kenai Peninsula's Skilak Lake, where he regularly retreats on vacation.

His co-authors are widely recognized authorities on bears.

Herrero, now at the University of Calgary in Alberta, authored "Bear Attacks: Their Causes and Avoidance," now considered the essential handbook for people wanting to learn about bears. DeBruyn heads up bear research for the National Park Service in Alaska. Wilder now works for the National Marine Fisheries Service.

Collectively, they represent a storehouse of knowledge about bears, and they gave pepper spray a clear endorsement.

"Bear spray represents an effective alternative to lethal force," they wrote.


Bear Spray success story
http://www.adn.com/bearattacks/story/147318.html

Bear spray stops charging sow

SAVED: Couple hiking Peters Creek Trail used Counter Assault.

By CRAIG MEDRED
Anchorage Daily News

In the blink of an eye, a defensive grizzly bear sow was rolling like a freight train through the willows along Peters Creek.

Then the brush was bathed in an orange-gray mist.

And in that instant, hiker Carl Ramm saw the sow's eye go wide "and it was gone," he said.

Neither Ramm nor his wife, Susan Alexander, clearly saw the bear leave. They heard it crashing through the brush as it beat a retreat with a cub trailing behind.

...edited for brevity...

"I don't think this was a bluff charge," he added, "because we were between her and her cub.

"The spray hit, and she turned and was gone. That's what amazed me."

...edited for brevity...


Outdoors editor Craig Medred writes a weekly opinion column. He can be reached at [email protected] or 257-4588.

Copyright © Sat Jan 10 2009 15:03:12 GMT-0900 (Alaskan Standard Time)1900 The Anchorage Daily News (www.adn.com)
Click to expand...

Having said all that, I have some doubt if spray alone would have saved Greg Brush in August, 2009.

http://peninsulaclarion.com/stories/080709/out_478669517.shtml

I also doubt if I would have had the time to try spray first and gun as backup. But each encounter with the untamed is unique. You prepare as best you can and take your chances.

Which brings me to the salient point. Know and practice good woodscraft. I assume you are experienced and knowledgeable (I did read your post.) When in the woods. PAY ATTENTION! One can avoid a LOT of trouble if you are just aware, and know who your furry neighbors are and what makes them tick.

Good luck

Lost Sheep
 
I didn't know they had moose or grizlies in Idaho. The .357 magnum should do you pretty good, provided you load it with some hot rounds.

Honestly though, for moose, I don't think I'd want anything less than a rifle, but thats just me. Do a search for "357 magnum bear" and peruse the hunting sub-forum. Should give you some good info on the right bullet for the job.

I'd recomend carrying the revolver over the .45 for a couple reasons:

1) Reliablity - if you jam the auto, you have to clear the jam. If for some reason the revolver doesn't fire, all you have to do is pull the trigger again.

2) Accuracy - you say you like the revolver better, which I'm implying means you can shoot it better. I think with either of the two choices, accuracy is going to play a big role. If you want to put down a moose or grizley with a handgun, you will need to make sure you're shooting it in the vital organs.

3) If I had to put my faith in one shot, I'd choose a .357 over a .45. To me, I just think you can get a more effective loading out of the .357. That being said, my next gun will probably be a 1911 in .45 :evil:

I know you're not really into guns that much, but you might want to consider shooting more than once a year if you want to stay proficient. I know, thats probably not what you want to hear, but the truth is, you can have the gun loaded with the most devastating ammo science can invent, but it won't do you much good if you shoot the tree behind the bear instead of the bear, or the moose charges you before you have time to draw the gun. If I was in your situation, I'd find a range with a weekly competition that you can shoot. If they have a "Draw" category even better. Theres nothing wrong with practicing solo if thats what you prefer, but I find it helps to have people watching who can give you pointers. Again, thats just what works for me, and may be completely wrong for what your looking for.

If ammo prices are a concern, there's allways dry-fire practise.




Hope this helps.

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson
 
I wouldn't want to use a .45 against a grizzly if I had any choice.

OTOH, despite "common knowledge", service auto pistols are stronger than revolvers, by design. A hard knock on the side of the frame will throw almost all revolvers out of time, leaving you with a revolver that appears to be working, but which may blind you when you try to use it. Be sure you know how to rapidly clear a malfunction from your 1911, load with 230 grain FMJ, and practice. You should then at least be good for protection from the big bad black bear.

But, really, an even better bet is to look for an inexpensive used "pump" 12 gauge shotgun. Load with slugs.
 
For shooting people the .45 ACP is better than the .357 since it uses 7-8 shot magazines and I find the recoil much easier to handle than a K frame .357 with stout loads.
An N-frame .357 (3-5 inch barrel) with stout non-expanding loads would be my choice of two calibers. A hard .357 bullet with a heavy load should penetrate enough. But frankly I would rely on the bear spray. I suspect bear spray would work on a moose also. But it sounds like on your own property that you will not likely have any problems. You know the animals and by now they know you. If something different shows up that is a cause for concern carry a light short barrel shotgun with a folding stock.

PS I wished I own 500 acres like you do.
 
Bullets lighter than 130 grains, at standard .357 Mag velocities, are known for cracking the forcing cones on K Frames. This is why the very slightly larger L Frame was introduced. I wouldn't shoot any of the BB .357 stuff, regardless of bullet weight, out of a K Frame either. I'd get some standard commercial 158 grain ammo for your model 19.

If you're not terribly attached to that 19 it has some collector value. If you can part with it you might try selling it to an individual to maximize the funds. Then you could find a nice used Ruger Super Red Hawk in .44 Mag if you must have a handgun for bear & moose defense.

Otherwise I'd look for a Maverick 88 by Mossberg in 12 gauge, with short barrel. You can find these new for under $200 at the big box sporting goods stores.
 
Rick,
Like said above, against a very large bear who is not afraid of you or Moose neither gun will provide adequate protection no matter what ammo you use. A shotgun loaded with slugs just might save your life. Sorry that wasn't what you wanted to hear but your life is important.

Welcome to the forum...
 
Save your money and get a good quality bear spray with a quick access holster and load your .357 with the 180 grain blasters.

Or buy a 12 gauge with a good sling and slugs or double ought buck....:)

By the way welcome to the forum!
 
Get a Ruger Blackhawk 45 Colt 7 1/2 inch barrel. Carry large Ruger only loads. Put 6 rounds in the critter flip the gun around and hold it by the barrel and beat it down.
 
Either one would be fine with the heavier loads, I would however be cautious if you began to run into Brown Bears.
 
I can’t afford any other guns.
Living in N Idaho the past 5 years I think I’m the only person here who doesn’t hunt, but I do enjoy hiking and have about 500 acres in which to do it. About the only shots I take are with a nice Cannon, but I do carry a 1979 S&W .357, K frame IIRC, model 19.
I usually dance around a tree for a bull moose, and the black bear usually run after they see me, UNTIL recently. I have a nice size black bear that apparently thinks I am not a threat any longer.
Click to expand...

I agree with those above, your better off sticking with your .357. Just load it up with some good cat bullets from any reputable ammo company such as these.

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/67...agnum-180-grain-castcore-flat-point-box-of-20

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/11...mance-lead-wide-flat-nose-gas-check-box-of-20

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/48...-200-grain-hard-cast-lead-flat-nose-box-of-20

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/94...-180-grain-lead-flat-nose-gas-check-box-of-20

Don't fret none of this ammo will damage your revolver. The S&W K frame magnums only had issues (cracked forcing cones) when it came to firing large quantities of hot 125gr JHP ammo. This topic has been debated to great length add nauseum on many gun boards. Stick with 145gr bullets and heavier and your K frame will be fine. For your outings however stick with something in the links provided.
 
Last edited:
Again, buckshot- should you go the highly suggested 12 gauge option- is not a serious contender for protection against heavy dangerous game. Slugs only.
 
Rick,

Carry either .357 or .45 as you prefer.

But, like others mentioned, if bear is really out there, take a 12 gauge. An inexpensive Mossberg 18 inch 12 gauge pump with slugs will do quite well for bears.

Other things like coyotes or wolves or pigs, either the .357 or .45 will do with good JHPs.

Deaf
 
Sell one or both guns and buy a new 44 Magnum, 4 inch barrel, probably a Smith or Ruger. Will serve you well. If you need two guns keep the one you like and sell the other but your current choices leave a lot to be desired for large animal defense. Yes you should rotate or consume your ammo at least each dozen years or so. If you shoot 25 rounds per year a box will only last two years. If you don't practice it does not matter what gun you use cause you won't be effectively placing your shots. Use 44 special in that 44 mag for home defense.
 
Just a thought on the black bears not running any more. If you're a fairly frequent hiker they are likely just getting used to you and accept your presence. I wouldn't take it as a sign of aggresion unless they start stalking you. But generally black bears are small enough to not target people unless they eat in the woods and leave a trail of edible debris or the smell of the food attracts them.

As mentioned it pays to keep aware of the surroundings. Most woods animals can be very quiet when moving so keep your eyes open as well.

Likely you're doing all this already though.

A hearty "DITTO!" on the need to practice more. The rush of adrenaline will confound much of your minimal practice. What you need is to set up bear and elk size front sillouette shaped targets such as they would appear if charging. Your practicing should be to smoothly draw then empty the gun at the target with all six rounds in the target in rapid but controlled fire. Extra points being given to shots in the generally approved fatal areas or areas which will instantly disable the animal such as the shoulder joint. Casual standing and plinkjng at bullseye targets in your own time won't do anything at all to ready you for a possible need to use the gun in a wood attack scenario. Such practice should be done on a weekly basis at first until you get decently good at it and then at least monthly to maintain it.
 
Choice of gun and ammo aside, you need a lot more practice! For the .357, you can buy inexpensive .38's Mix in some .357's just to keep in practice and know the recoil. Shoot a couple of hundred rounds a month if you can afford it. Practice, practice, practice.
 
Good advice from Harvester. I know from experience that bear spray (pepper spray) works well on moose and black bear. I have more confidence in it than in a .357 or a .45 ACP. YMMV. Nothing suitable for this purpose comes with a guarantee.
 
Wow thanks for all the replies. All the different letters and numbers are a lot to take in.
We do have a can of bear spray in the camper that shoots out 35' according to the can. Bought it maybe 5 years ago for traveling into Canada, since they don't like my little guns there. Didn't realize it could be so effective on both Moose and Bear.
I was a bit concerned by one poster talking about "blinding me" from a hard knock to the revolver?
Moose and Bear in North Idaho, LOL we have a few.
5-10-09004.jpg

moreandmore006.jpg

My plan is to get some more spray and some 150-180 hc ammo for the 357 as a last resort. Never thought of this bear as "gentle Ben" if your old enough to remember that show. But maybe he is just getting use to me. He never sticks around much when my dog is around, but my old dog would get himself killed chasing the game.
Interesting about the 12 gauge slugs, didn't know they had them. I have a wing master pump on the wall, maybe I'll load it up for home use if needed. Is that ammo at most stores?
Thanks again for the advice
I'll be lurking around from now on
Rick
 
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