Bear defense pistols: .357 or .45acp. Pick one!
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Nasty Canasta
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I watched this guys test trying to simulate shooting at a charging bear, looks like fun & I want to try it. Biggest take away was a semi-auto pistol gives you the best chance of getting off multiple shots quickly on target compared to a DA revolver. Everyone's going to be better with one over another so I'd go with the one that you're the quickest with out of the holster to first shot on target using a timer, you're only going to get a moment & shooting a static target doesn't really prove much but at least a timer adds a bit of stress to the test. I have my "bear Gun" & while it might comfort me I'm not sure I could get it into action as fast as I would need to in a surprise attack so I just keep practicing draw & fire & hope I never have to shoot a charging bear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW4UPeZkGyM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW4UPeZkGyM
WisBorn
Contributing Member
I have watched this video before. I agree that it would be a lot of fun trying this test!
The simple fact is if you can land more shots on target with a handgun that fires a bullet that will penetrate the animals skull that is one you should use. That is why the 10mm is gaining popularity.
Thanks for posting the video.
Watch his rifle test. It is fun to watch.
Rifles & Shotguns vs Charging Bear Target
In this video I shoot assorted long guns at the charging bear target and compare the results to our handgun video from last week. If you have not seen that ...
youtu.be
Pat Riot
Contributing Member
Not if they have never shot one.
Joshua M. Smith
Member
I would hard cast some 230grn nominal truncated cone in .45acp and load it to +P levels. Should work fine.
Pat Riot
Contributing Member
Thanks. That would be a fun test to try out.I have watched this video before. I agree that it would be a lot of fun trying this test!
The simple fact is if you can land more shots on target with a handgun that fires a bullet that will penetrate the animals skull that is one you should use. That is why the 10mm is gaining popularity.
Thanks for posting the video.
Watch his rifle test. It is fun to watch.
Rifles & Shotguns vs Charging Bear Target
In this video I shoot assorted long guns at the charging bear target and compare the results to our handgun video from last week. If you have not seen that ...
The 45acp is much closer to the 9mm and a better comparison. The .357 is far and away a better choice. A long time ago in N Idaho/Montana I would bring home black bear harvested with a 30/06. My kids grew up on tasty bear meat. Once I encountered a bear face-to-face at @ 10 yards, and all I had was an old M&P .357. 2 or 3 shots (don't remember - more than 50 years ago) and I was left with a dead bear to carry out by myself 5 miles of remote wilderness trail. That will give you a lot of respect for the .357.
someguy2800
Member
45 acp for me loaded with a 255 gr hard cast because I shoot auto pistols much better and faster. I killed a very large black bear in my front yard a few years ago, but I had time to get a rifle.
Its easy to go down the ballistics rabbit hole and forget that you have to actually be able to hit something with the darned thing. I have a Taurus Tracker 44 magnum that I bought to be my bear country carry as a lighter option to my 629. Shoots great in single action and very soft shooting with the ported barrel. When I actually train with either of them though I come back to reality and realize that I shoot so much better with my auto pistols in 40 or 45 than I can when shooting in double action. Probably going to sell the tracker but I'll keep the 629 to deer hunt with. If you have something that will handle it, 45 super is also an option.
Its easy to go down the ballistics rabbit hole and forget that you have to actually be able to hit something with the darned thing. I have a Taurus Tracker 44 magnum that I bought to be my bear country carry as a lighter option to my 629. Shoots great in single action and very soft shooting with the ported barrel. When I actually train with either of them though I come back to reality and realize that I shoot so much better with my auto pistols in 40 or 45 than I can when shooting in double action. Probably going to sell the tracker but I'll keep the 629 to deer hunt with. If you have something that will handle it, 45 super is also an option.
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WisBorn
Contributing Member
I understand that this thread is 357 vs 45 & not handgun vs bear spray. But it is a really well done video and has some interesting shooting in it comparing a 44mag to a 9mm. If you have not seen it before it really is worth your time to watch. It has helped shift my way of thinking about carrying a lower energy semiautomatic over a large revolver.
youtu.be
Pistol, Bear Spray or Both? | Clay Newcomb Learns Bear Defense | Presented by Taurus
Most folks think that bear defense revolves around one age-old debate: pistol versus bear spray. MeatEater's Clay Newcomb, a long time bear man, has always w...
youtu.be
WisBorn
Contributing Member
Weather and time permitting a little testing tomorrow.
Just curious how much faster one platform is versus the other.
Test 45acp XDM compact vs 357mag 686. I am also going to dump a cylinder of 44mag from my 69.
Ammo will be 45acp +p 255 grain hardcast from Underwood. 357mag 180 grain hardcast from HSM. I only have a small quantity of hardcast for the 44mag so I will use 240 grain JHP from Underwood. The 44mag ammo is rated at 1500 fps.
I will try to compare the speed and accuracy of the handguns and loads.
Just curious how much faster one platform is versus the other.
Test 45acp XDM compact vs 357mag 686. I am also going to dump a cylinder of 44mag from my 69.
Ammo will be 45acp +p 255 grain hardcast from Underwood. 357mag 180 grain hardcast from HSM. I only have a small quantity of hardcast for the 44mag so I will use 240 grain JHP from Underwood. The 44mag ammo is rated at 1500 fps.
I will try to compare the speed and accuracy of the handguns and loads.
S.Crockett
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The most apex bruin predator right there.
To deal with these bad boys in the arctic regions of Greenland, the Mil-issue sidearm of Denmark’s Sirius Sledge Patrol soldiers is a hot-loaded 10mm Gen4 Glock 20. If the 10mm suffices to put Polar bears face down on the tundra, it’ll serve admirably to repel pesky black bears, not to mention any 2-legged predators you encounter on the trail.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
I'm willing to bet that people who are literally "loaded for bear" in the first place are sporting rifles. Handguns are primarily a backup weapon.
Remember...the OP limited his question to two handguns for his own reasons. But the fact of the matter is that ANY handgun is significantly underpowered compared to what rifles offer.
And while there are people who choose to hunt with a handgun, they do so fully understanding the differences between handguns and long guns, and they choose a handgun that's most definitely on the upper end of the power spectrum when they are out hunting large game, and most especially apex predators.
Remember...the OP limited his question to two handguns for his own reasons. But the fact of the matter is that ANY handgun is significantly underpowered compared to what rifles offer.
And while there are people who choose to hunt with a handgun, they do so fully understanding the differences between handguns and long guns, and they choose a handgun that's most definitely on the upper end of the power spectrum when they are out hunting large game, and most especially apex predators.
trackskippy
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If I were going to be somewhere I was on the menu, I know Id have both.
And when you think about it, most "hunting" choices, even for a long gun, arent the best for something like an unexpected bear charge. You want a "fighting" gun, and something like a semi auto 12ga.
And when you think about it, most "hunting" choices, even for a long gun, arent the best for something like an unexpected bear charge. You want a "fighting" gun, and something like a semi auto 12ga.
someguy2800
Member
Pursuing a bear and being prepared for incidental contact with a bear are very different things.
Choosing one of the two calibers mentioned by the OP, easy choice is the .357mag. I've carried the mag for over 5 decades, I handload it, the 45auto and a number of other calibers, I only practice double action and on 200 round training sessions (.357mag only, no 38spcl) there will be 3-4 mags due to the cylinders getting too hot to hold open with bare fingers.
Something that hasn't been mentioned yet is bears can charge through brush, meaning brush branches act as a formidable intermediate barrier that defect JHPs, including 44mag.
Having personal experience with being charge by feral dogs, namely pit bulls, revolvers are too slow (as are DA/SA pistols) to the first shot. Let this sink in for a bit, my last encounter was with 3 pit bulls, two of which charged, the distance between the lead pb's head and a 1911 muzzle was ~2ft down angle. Figure a hard charge at about 40ft/sec, the added time of a double action trigger pull and single action trigger time puts the .357mag in the too slow category. During other encounters, terminal dispatch headshots were about 5ft down angle, one shot, point shooting, one-handed; not enough time for a two-handed grip or sights. Bears/dogs can run ~30mph, this extrapolates to 45ft/sec, 40ft/sec is a conservative estimate IME.
A serious issue with 45 ACP/Super shooting 255gr SWCs is the feedback of jamming issues, for me, the 255gr SWC is loaded for 45 Auto Rim (revolver, moonclips needed for 45ACP)
As stated in previous posts, 10mm 200gr WFNs is one of the top choices for when out and about, on the trail or while in brush, I've tested this combination shooting through brush, it shoots straight. The meplat of the 200gr WFN bullet is too wide for 8 rounds to fit in a 1911 magazine...best option here for me is the G20, the only polymer I own, it'll hold a full magazine of 200gr WFNs. Having said this, for those who carry a 1911 10mm, 200gr WFN in the chamber and top three rounds in the magazine, bottom 5 rounds choose whatever, for me it's handloaded 180gr Gold Dots at 1267fps, it's a good combination penetrating thick bone.
Large bone test 180gr Gold Dot 1267fps impact velocity;
Exit ~3"+ bone
S.Crockett
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Yep a G20 - hot-loaded with heavy hardcast slugs - just works.
Anchorite
Member
Lots of interesting responses. For my $.02 cents worth, when facing critters that can bite you back, I abide by the 4-3-1 rule. Carry a caliber that starts with a “4,” with a bullet weight beginning with a “3,” that has a velocity of a minimum of 1000fps.
So within your parameters the 45 ACP makes more sense to me when applying my “4-3-1” criteria. Yes, it is still a compromise, like everything is, but I get the caliber and come closer to the bullet weight than I do with the 357. Velocity/fps only really matters on the internet and in bars when talking handguns.
So within your parameters the 45 ACP makes more sense to me when applying my “4-3-1” criteria. Yes, it is still a compromise, like everything is, but I get the caliber and come closer to the bullet weight than I do with the 357. Velocity/fps only really matters on the internet and in bars when talking handguns.
Pat Riot
Contributing Member
How many hits did it take to put that big boy down?
S.Crockett
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Per the article, it was a double-tap of Best Meter from the guy’s G20 that stopped the charge.
Pat Riot
Contributing Member
Thank you. “Best Meter”?
tactikel
Member
Midwest means black bears. Unless you are carrying a backpack full of donuts it’s doubtful you will see one close up. If you do I’d opt for the .357. I carry my Model 28-2 with 168 gr hard cast SWC over a stout load of 2400 while hiking in northern Wisconsin.
I don’t think a bear would even know it had been hit yet by the time it reached me. He’d have 5 good seconds of shredding me before he paid attention to his wounds, methinks.Which would give you better odds of hitting a quick moving target?
Roverguy
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I love bear threads.
I carry a revolver in 45 Colt most of the time in the woods. And a 1911 in 45 acp the rest of the time. Except the Hungry Time. In the early Spring when the bears have just come out of hibernation and there’s no food. Then, I like a lever gun and Ruger level 45 Colt.
I don’t own anything in 357.
I carry a revolver in 45 Colt most of the time in the woods. And a 1911 in 45 acp the rest of the time. Except the Hungry Time. In the early Spring when the bears have just come out of hibernation and there’s no food. Then, I like a lever gun and Ruger level 45 Colt.
I don’t own anything in 357.
StrykerByte.45
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Why would you run SWC in 45super? They will be problematic. There is RNFP 255gr .452 available. Underwood's does 1090FPS from my Glock 4.5" KKM barrel. I load 250gr XTP with 8grs Longshot to over 1100FPS. Both can be loaded much hotter up to 1300FPS if you're 45auto is set up correctly.
Obviously I will not use the hollow points against bear, just saying for example. I did pull the Underwood heart cast bullets before and reloaded them with their own powder and they did 1250 FPS from the same gun.
I only have black bear around where I live. They can get up to 600 lb. I normally only carry Underwood's 200 grain extreme penetrators for them. I have only shot the hardcast to see how they handle in case I ever do need them but they are stored. I rely mostly on the 200 grain extreme penetrators where I live. I chrono them at just over 1100FPS from the same gun, 4.5" KKM barrel Glock 30S.
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