Bear defense pistols: .357 or .45acp. Pick one!

[RJTravel]

In my estimation the limited reaction time during an all-out charge is overrated. This is my experience only and is based on just one full-on bear charge. Approx 200 pound black bear uphill. My first shot was approx 50-60 yards, then with a full-on unimpeded charge directly toward me there was sufficient time to run my bolt-action 30/06 and an unhurried shot to end the charge at approx 10-15 yards. I know there are many scary accounts on an internet search but my one encounter was much different. Would like to see others' real experiences not tainted by internet stories.

 

[S.Crockett]

In my estimation the limited reaction time during an all-out charge is overrated. This is my experience only and is based on just one full-on bear charge. Approx 200 pound black bear uphill. My first shot was approx 50-60 yards, then with a full-on unimpeded charge directly toward me there was sufficient time to run my bolt-action 30/06 and an unhurried shot to end the charge at approx 10-15 yards. I know there are many scary accounts on an internet search but my one encounter was much different. Would like to see others' real experiences not tainted by internet stories.

Slo-drawin’ Fuddleys don’t last long in the Bad Bear Bush.

 

[WisBorn]

Weather and time permitting a little testing tomorrow.
Just curious how much faster one platform is versus the other.

Test 45acp XDM compact vs 357mag 686. I am also going to dump a cylinder of 44mag from my 69.
Ammo will be 45acp +p 255 grain hardcast from Underwood. 357mag 180 grain hardcast from HSM. I only have a small quantity of hardcast for the 44mag so I will use 240 grain JHP from Underwood. The 44mag ammo is rated at 1500 fps.
I will try to compare the speed and accuracy of the handguns and loads.
View attachment 1177969

I made to the range Wednesday and again today to see how quick with acceptable accuracy I am. My 357mag & 45acp were both loaded with hardcast loads.
It was really close. To do this test again I really should have a shot timer. I do feel that I was a little quicker with the 45 than the 357. This is probably due to the amount of time that I have been shooting my semiautomatics.
As far as the 44mag. I can see why it may be just smarter to carry one of my 10mm's in Big Bear country.

 

[RJTravel]

Seen that grin charge flick a number of times. I've never seen a real bear that fast - and I have seen many at a full run. Appears he had feet in starting blocks - or possibly film is speeded up. In either case a man who is one with his rifle would level him - even at that speed.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

My 255gr .452 RNFP do 1090 out of my Glock 30S with 4.5" KKM barrel. I can control it, but accurate follow up shots are slower than I desire. That's exactly why I prefer to use the Recover Tactical 20/21 brace for woods carry. It doesnt even double the weight of my Glock, can be holstered, and allows me faster follow up shots even with the brace folded(because it adds 10oz to the frame). Im pretty much ending the debate on what is better. Than 357mag. If you like 10 mm, the brace will also give you more accurate and faster follow-up shots. It's not like we got to worry about concealment when in bear country. This brace fits 29, 30, 30S, 20, 21, 40, 41 Glocks.
The way I have it set up now I can remove the brace and the optic, each one screw, and back to this.
A little more bulky, but can still be concealed and this way I don't have a bunch of guns in my trunk.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

Oh, and another thing I forgot to add is that these braces are also made for 1911s, Smith& Wesson m&P's, and other popular handguns.

 

[S.Crockett]

Seen that grin charge flick a number of times. I've never seen a real bear that fast - and I have seen many at a full run. Appears he had feet in starting blocks - or possibly film is speeded up. In either case a man who is one with his rifle would level him - even at that speed.

Not if said man didn’t have a rifle in his hands when the charge happened. Maybe he laid it up against a tree way over there because he was chopping wood for the campfire.

Not everyone, whether out hunting or not, is necessarily carrying or holding a rifle at all times in “bear country” when Mr. Grizz suddenly decides to appear.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

And that's what I like about my Glock 30S in the recovery tactical brace. I can draw just as quickly as any other handgun, (maybe a little bit slower because of the extra weight but not that much). I can fire it quickly without having to deploy the brace and a 45super 255 grain is going to drop that bear in one shot, even if it doesn't kill it, I could take my time with the second shot. Hasta la vista, baby (BANG)
But if I do happen to get a chance to see a bear coming at me from a distance, I can deploy the brace and get some accurate shots with the optic. I zero my optics at 100 yds.

 

[RJTravel]

If you were to lean your rifle against a tree "way over there" while you watched a griz being released from a bear trap then you deserve to become bear scat on the forest floor.

 

[JohnKSa]

I made to the range Wednesday and again today to see how quick with acceptable accuracy I am. My 357mag & 45acp were both loaded with hardcast loads.
It was really close. To do this test again I really should have a shot timer. I do feel that I was a little quicker with the 45 than the 357.

A shot timer or some other method of forcing the shooter to fire as fast as possible is absolutely necessary to do this kind of test accurately. The shooter has to be pushed hard enough that they are operating right at the limits of what they can achieve--or maybe pushed hard enough that they start to fail to perform. Only then can one really see the true difference in the outcomes. Without that kind of forced performance limits, a shooter will tend to shoot at a comfortable cadence with both guns and all one can learn from the results is what a comfortable cadence for that shooter is.

One option for achieving this would be shoot the drill with shorter and shorter time limits until the shooter can't manage to get good hits with one gun and then look at the performance under the same constraints with the remaining gun and see if there was any benefit.

Not everyone, whether out hunting or not, is necessarily carrying or holding a rifle at all times in “bear country” when Mr. Grizz suddenly decides to appear.

I'd be interested to see a test that has one person drawing and firing a pistol and then performing the same drill starting with a slung rifle. In other words, starting both tests with the defender doing something other than holding a gun in their hands ready to go. I think that drawing and firing a pistol is going to be significantly faster.

 

[2zulu1]

One person's opinion,

Where to shoot a bear if it's charging? [Updated!]

Aim for the deadliest point you can find. On a close-in, charging bear, this will probably be the face or upper chest. Often full-attack grizzlies lower their

safeharborfishing.com

From Buffalo Bore, the owner has killed dozens of bears, including many grizzlies.

I hesitated to bring out a “Dangerous Game” load in 10MM as I do not see the 10MM cartridge as a truly dangerous game cartridge, but I do know it is a compromise cartridge for that purpose, (that comes in lightweight, high capacity, and small-sized pistols) that has been used many times, successfully for that purpose.

I have a similar setup like these staggered targets. Using a 686P/6" it's split times were .33--.36 seconds, and I can shoot through brush which acts as an intermediate barrier, it's a challenge seeing a target through branches and leaves. This 686P has a Performance Center trigger hone/polish job and its DA pull is about the same as a Glock 17.3,

How to Pick the Right Sidearm for Backup Bear Protection

What's better for a bear back up gun: a magnum revolver or a 10mm auto? Two experts square off.

www.outdoorlife.com

This is the time of year when large 4-legged predators return to the valley after a season in the mountains. Black bears can be out any month of the year and they hibernate intermittently during winter months, mid 50s--60F day and low 20s during night hours.

These Cast Performance 180gr WFNs running in the 1200s shoots straight, breaks bones and is good for 36 inches plus penetration through soft tissue, it's what I carry on the ranch.



That's a 27-2 5 inch in the background

These handloads are accurate and shoot well in the new Pythons too,



The .357mag is one of the most versatile calibers available these days, and this handloader's dream to load for over 5 decades.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Slo-drawin’ Fuddleys don’t last long in the Bad Bear Bush.

View attachment 1178330

Why is that bear SO ANGRY!!!

 

[doubleh]

The 750,000 black bears of North America kill less than one person per year on the average, while 1 out of each 16,000 people commits murder each year across North America. *Most attacks by black bears attacks are defensive reactions to a person who is very close, which is an easy situation to avoid.

Bear Attacks | Wise About Bears​

Wise About Bears

No black bears here for me to worry about but out of curiosity I found this: Draw your own conclusions.

I used to deer hunt where black bears lived. I was carrying a 30-06 and not slung on my shoulder so wasn't worried. In my entire life I have seen only one black bear in the wild and that was only for an instant.

 

[Terry G]

He just wanted some breakfast.

 

[jstert]

so, o.p. has a choice for a bear handgun among his current stable of a 9mm and 45acp semiauto pistols or a 357mag revolver. i have no experience hunting anything or defending against bears, but here are my thoughts:
-which handgun are you most qualified in, and comfortable with, using under all circumstances?
-semiauto pistols put lots of rounds rapidly on target. quantity has a power of its own.
-for what other uses might you employ your bear country handgun? the 357 revolver allows use of softer 38sp wadcutter or even snakeshot ammo for adding target of opportunity meat to the campfire.
-might you have an opportunity to plink? 9mm ammo is cheaper.
-which total handgun setup, including mags, speedloaders, weight of ammo, holster, allows a more comfortable hiking carry?

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Well, his STATED purpose is as a bear gun with two hard choices to pick from: a 1911 in .45 ACP and a 4" revolver in .357 Magnum. So he's not looking for "other uses". Much like a carry piece, where you don't carry loaded with plinking rounds, he's not going to be loaded with plinking rounds when in bear country. He already has both guns and presumably enjoys their plinking flexibility at the range.

The difference between the two in terms of rounds is one, maybe 2 in favor of the 1911. That does not really constitute "lots of rounds"...and the penetration characteristics possible out of a .45 ACP from a 1911 are rather limited in comparison to what the .357 Magnum offers.

And 9mm isn't even an option with his choices.

I get what you're trying to say...but a firearm that's intentionally carried for a specific purpose when out in the field, especially for protection against an apex predator, should be dedicated expressly for that purpose.

 

[American_Fusilier]

Thanks for the thoughts guys. I appreciate it!

 

[KnightHawk]

Well of the two choices I would choose the 357. I’m admittedly old school and have grown up with six guns. Things are changing, the younger generations some times don’t even realize that revolvers exist.
But when the 357 first came out one of the sales featured to law enforcement was that a 357 would penetrate the engine block of a vehicle. Now that’s penetration.
Black bears can be killed fairly easily, most times. Get an excited bear , that can be a different can of worms.
I carry a 3” SP101 with 357 158 SP, no HP’s This gun is in my back pocket all during the warm months. I’ve had black bears inside my cabin/house 3 times early on and they can be amazing destructive. I normally carry a 4” 44 mag but for just around the homestead the weight and the holstered 44 is in the way and that’s why I use the pocket 357. Next summer I will have worked up some good stout 180 grain loads for the pocket pistol.
I used to take people out to the outer islands of Prince William Sound and do shore hikes. Well there are big bears on those islands. The inland grizzly commands respect. He’ll all bears command respect.
But the coastal browns are another story altogether.
I started out carrying a custom 458x2 American 400 grain Barnes and a 4” Smith 44 with 310’s. Wasn’t quite comfortable with that setup. Went to the Ruger SRH 480 with 410’s. The rifle would at times be left in the skiff or was leaning against a tree. With that in mind the 44 just didn’t give the comfort I was looking for. Only real comfort comes with a stout rifle, but… if it’s in the skiff..,
But for the home front I have never seen an inland grizzly but they occasionally pop up.
I feel comfortable with the 357 in my back pocket if I wouldn’t have time to get to one of the rifles behind a couple of doors.
Revolvers are reliable, period.

 

[American_Fusilier]

Yeah, it seems like the overall consensus is the 357 mag. Which to be honest, is what I was leaning towards anyway.

I don't have to deal with brown bears here (I'm glad for that!) only blacks.

But I think I'll take my 357 when hunting/hiking in bear country.

 

[WisBorn]

@American_Fusilier you really couldn't go wrong with either.

I stopped by the range this morning to get a few shots down range. I have recently been shooting my Glock 19 & 26, but wanted to get re-familiarized with my XDM 45acp.
I have an upcoming vacation to the Smokies and wanted to comfortable with it. I will carry it as my EDC until after that vacation.

 

[.308 Norma]

-for what other uses might you employ your bear country handgun? the 357 revolver allows use of softer 38sp wadcutter or even snakeshot ammo for adding target of opportunity meat to the campfire.

That's a good point, jstert. However, I have a box of CCI 45 Auto shotshells sitting on a shelf not 3 feet from me. And they even function (cycle) well in my 1911.

 

[someguy2800]

But when the 357 first came out one of the sales featured to law enforcement was that a 357 would penetrate the engine block of a vehicle. Now that’s penetration.

I’ve always thought that was hilarious since virtually all engines of the time were thick sand cast iron side valve engines. If you got a lucky shot to the carburetor or distributor you could get an instantly disabled vehicle, but absolutely no chance hitting the engine block. At most you’ll crack the water jacket and the coolant will run out.

My 44 magnum wouldn’t even penetrate the water jacket on this modern thin wall aluminum block. Had to keep hitting the same spot till a crack started and then break off chunks from the edge of the crack.

 

[dweis]

I am 81, I have been hiking in PA’s black bear country since I was 30. Yes, black bears are skittish until they are not. I have furing all th years I have had tree problematic encounters with black bears. Two were females with cubs who made defensive charges at me. One turned when i made a fuss. One took a shot of bear spray to turn. The bad one was a male, He made an aggressive charge. If you are going int there domain, it is good to understand the differences between the to types of charges. The difference is substantial. On an aggressive charge the bear will hardly growl, will not make scary showing so teeth or stand up. The bear just gets low to the ground, ears back and runs at top speed. The one aggressive charfe I experienced was repelled with bear spray, but the bear turned and charge again. The second spray drove him off. It was about a 400 pours male. I had a 45ACP loaded with FMJ.

Why did i use bear spray instead of the gun? The bear was about 150 feet away when he started the charge. Black bears run at about 35 mph. It only takes them second to run 150 feet. You might get one shot off, But the bear is coming head on, and low to the ground. If you hot hi, it can only be in the head, shoulder or leg. A should or leg shot is going to have to shatter bone to stop him. There is little guarantee that a bone will be the hit. If you hit the frontal skiull there is a good chance the bullet will ricochet or only penetrate superficially. It will slow the bear down so you het a few more seconds to be healthy.

Can you gat off the needed shot in under 2 seconds? Can you do it accurately? I would not bet my life on it. Bear spray has a reach of 30 feet and makes a cloud that what bear cannot bypass without getting off the charge path. If it does that you can get a shot at its side and that has potential for a deeper penetrating shot(s). So I suggest carrying bear spray as the first line of defense. It works. If it did not I might not be writing this,

 

[Boatman1992]

So I know this discussion has been done to death, sorry...

But I have a more specific question.

I live in the Midwest, and the only bears we have are skiddish black bears. I probably don't  need a bear defense gun other than my carry gun (9mm). But I am curious, I have a 1911 in .45apc and an EAA Vindicator (4" barrel) in .357 mag, what do you guys think is best between the two for bears?

If I lived in Alaska or some place where there were grizzlies, I'd carry a 10mm or .44 mag.

I went camping in Yellowstone a few years back and I took the 357 (I didn't have the 1911 at that point).

The 357 is a proven cartridge, but with the 45 you get a bigger hole and two more rounds...

Without buying a new gun, what would you guys pick and why?

357 - penetration.

 

[KnightHawk]

I’ve always thought that was hilarious since virtually all engines of the time were thick sand cast iron side valve engines. If you got a lucky shot to the carburetor or distributor you could get an instantly disabled vehicle, but absolutely no chance hitting the engine block. At most you’ll crack the water jacket and the coolant will run out.

My 44 magnum wouldn’t even penetrate the water jacket on this modern thin wall aluminum block. Had to keep hitting the same spot till a crack started and then break off chunks from the edge of the crack.

View attachment 1180334

Yeah I as well thought it was an extremely unique claim that had little to do with reality. I’m quite sure it was just to point out penetration and not that law enforcement was seeking engine destroying handguns.
My point was penetration as well, which kinda pertains to the original question, at least in my opinion.
I’ve never had the opportunity to break up an engine block with a gun, but I’ve had a couple vehicles that that would have been a very therapeutic exercise.